"Man The F*** Up" The Ultimate 180

[25yearsmlc]

It would mean the world to me if my wife and I could sit down and see eye to eye on our marriage.
I know the reasons why she's reluctant.


Well hey, no offense but your LONG post outlining the past few years shows that you two have talked A LOT about the M. You pursue her when she's NOT interested and you rush your expectations (= pressure) on her the instant she warms at all, or merely acts civil. You engage in a great deal of mind reading and descriptions about where her eyes gaze, seem to mean more to you than any of us would comment or act upon. That's why we all urged you to STFU.

It's not shocking that she wants SPACE from you. She has been very clear and in my opinion, pretty resolute.

The exposure you did and still defend, shows a remarkable lack of insight into how you harm the relationship further, even now, and even while claiming to want a reconciliation.




When you say "Do you want to be right or happy?" I couldn't agree more.
Hurt has made me want to be right. Hurt has also stopped me being happy.

Hurt has made you want to hurt her, and hence the exposure. It's self righteous vindictiveness with the veneer of morality laid on top. Not the way to get a woman back btw...

Understand that every time you give into your neediness and or your anger, you push her farther away and actually prolong your own misery. Too bad.

How to repair that? How to Stop doing that?

DETACHMENT, which always always requires you to GAL

and that always always means getting out of your comfort zone, and into something in which

YOU GROW and or CHANGE.


I see all the hurt and angry folk being righteous and angry on the boards.
Do I want to be like that?
No.
It's just not me.


I don't know what this^^ means. I DO know that the couples who reconcile rarely, if ever, have an LBS lashing out...it simply does not work.


To be honest, all that righteousness and anger has made me look like my mother. A person who, with the best of intentions, likes to involve herself in everyone's lives. My marriage too.
My wife does hold a lot of resentment towards her for that.

Fine. So tell your mother (lovingly, w/respect, but also w/ firm clarity) to STFU and then, you must stop doing the exact same things to your wife that your mother did/does.

It's a clear pattern for you.


She tearfully said once "I just wanted you to be yourself".
That meant not angry and stressed all the time, strong enough to take whatever life threw at me, and be someone she could lean on too.

I'm sorry I got defensive with you earlier when you tried to help.
Thanks man.

What are your 180s? (Name 2 specifics)

and what are your GAL? What can you join/explore/study or volunteer for or visit,

within the next 30 days? DO TWO (2) and see how much better you feel, which will make you detach more and do less harm to the m

and perhaps even seem interesting or changed, to your w....

but do it for YOU, not her.

If you really GAL, one of these things would happen.

You would be happier, more confident and more attractive...

and EITHER

your wife would notice and come back to you; or

she'd notice but not come back, OR

she'd NOT notice at all, and does not come back.

But YOU would still be better off, by far, by GAL.

YOU would still be happier, regardless of her choice.

This is not easy, I know, but it sure is not complicated.

[RedHawk98]

GAL did take a little longer than I would have liked.
I was left with quite a mess to clear up after she left.
60-70 hour weeks to pay for a new home and clear debt. I had to clear out the contents of a 5 bedroom house to move to a one bedroom apartment.

Not much time for myself! LOL

Since her departure I like to think I've done a lot.
New career with a future
Turned photography hobby into a small business
Started writing and performing music again (solo)
"Freshened up" with new wardrobe and car
More spontaneous by going out and visiting places unplanned.
Moving on to a new country

There's a lot of other things that are better/different to life a year ago.

Yes, they make me happier in general. It is nice that people remark on how well I'm looking or are shocked at the positive change in me.

Only thing is, missing her. And thinking of all our plans we had.
They do put a shadow over everything from time to time.
No matter what I do to make life better for myself.

[RedHawk98]

Thank you also for your advice.
You don't have to do all this, your marriage is restored.
So I really appreciate your point of view and refusal to sugar coat things.

I meant to add that, in the last week or so I am feeling more calm than I have in a year. I've noticed that I'm actually laughing and having fun again.
A few hours come at a time when I feel sad still. I expect that.

You'll be relieved to know that the idea of any sort of pursuing makes me uneasy now.
I can see what that looks like now and it makes me feel embarrassed.
I never did have to pursue her in the beginning, we just fell in love with day to day contact.

She does have an appalling memory, and is usually a positive person, so here's hoping that now I know how to prevent further damage, we may be able to talk in the future.

[Oxford1]

It seems to me that you and I are similar in many ways. The difference is I was married 27 yrs before my wife's affair.

I keep thinking that she is going to start to miss you and use that as an excuse to see you.

Just keep up your 180s

[RedHawk98]

That's why I was keen to dive in there Ox. You were making a lot of the same mistakes I was, and wanted to prevent you making them too.

I had a lot of bad advice and was going through a very bad time when my wife left.
I have to admire your PMA there Ox!
I can't see her wanting to talk to me for a very long time. Due to me losing it like I did last week.

But, at least I'm calm and not lashing out in pain anymore. Which will prevent any more damage being done.

[Oxford1]

That's why I was keen to dive in there Ox. You were making a lot of the same mistakes I was, and wanted to prevent you making them too.

I had a lot of bad advice and was going through a very bad time when my wife left.
I have to admire your PMA there Ox!
I can't see her wanting to talk to me for a very long time. Due to me losing it like I did last week.

But, at least I'm calm and not lashing out in pain anymore. Which will prevent any more damage being done.

When her affair was just EA, I got into what she called circle talk.
So when I caught her in a no-tell motel in February where she claims she was just kissing and " petting" she just did not want to deal with my big mouth.

Plus OM had her so scared she would come home and I would harm her.

The worst part was when I would travel for business during the two months,she would stay at the house for S15. She would make me prove I was not home.

I heard VM from him where he would tell her I was probably hiding in the woods.

It was unbelievable.

I honestly think the only thing now preventing her from dropping him are these stupid exposures that people did on the web...

[25yearsmlc]

Redhawk, (and OX)

I posted something earlier today that I think could be useful to both of you. For the life of me I'm too tired to see if it was you (ox) whom I posted it to, but if so, just see if it hits you any differently seeing it now. I'll post it after this b/c it's too long as it is!

Ox, your m was longer and that is mostly a great thing, but you also had a lot of negatives in the dynamics If I'm recall correctly.

So there is damage in your wife you may not realize. Yes, I mean damage from you.

What would either of you do differently if your wives were to return? And how, or where are you getting NEW coping tools (since the olds ones have not worked)??

I mean, the definition of insanity is repeating the same behaviors, but expecting different results.

You cannot just repeat the past, unless you want it ALL repeated...surely you both want your old marriages to die in order to rebuild and restore them into new, stronger ones?

Otherwise, you'd be back here every time you are in a new r of any duration. So think about how you'd get NEW COPING TOOLS to make things different/better than before.

---REMEMBER not to project too much of your situations onto the others...I mean, Redhawk and Ox, while I see similar veins in how you both communicate with your wives (not productively for the most part) I also see some projections of your situations that I don't see as fitting. Redhawk, your wife and you are both SO young and it shows in ways that are not helping you. Take some marriage courser or a marriage seminar if you ever reconcile for good. YOU can take personal growth workshops on your own you know. They cannot hurt and for ME and later for my h, they've worked wonders (Same for you Ox. Look up "Essential Experience" in Philadelphia, which is for individuals. Amaxing that so many DBers and people in my field, and the medical professions have gotten so much out of it. It's not for "crazy" folks, it's for people who are fundamentally cognitively aware enough to want to learn how to change their lives and willing to do what it takes. It's wonderful to get all that in a long HARD weekend...For couples, it's wonderful but it's aimed at individuals, so if you want to do a couples thing, and if your only issues are the marriage ( doubting that...) then when appropriate, go to Retrovaille, That's designed for couples in crisis and though it was started in the Catholic Church, you do NOT have to be catholic to go. My h is not and believe me, I always worry someone will try to convert him..I know HE worries about that...over 30 years have passed, and so far no one has.

Okay so please forgive me for being blunt --but the hour is late... I think you both go in circles a lot with your wives, and you just talk too much. Especially for men.

It can come off as bullying to "win" the argument. OR as petulant, like a child.

NOTE that in R talks, there is NO "winning".

There is being heard, being respected/validated, considered, ignored, cared about, dismissed or bullied.

Tone and volume often mean more than what is said. Content gets lost fast.

EXAMPLE: My dad was a lawyer and public speaker by profession. When he spoke to me it was almost always a lecture. He was comfortable in a "teaching" mode and saw that as his job as a father (many h's do this as well).

But the moment his tone with me was AT ALL irritated or impatient, (to me), I tuned him out.
If he raised his voice, I tuned him out.

Fact is, when someone SOUNDS angry ---then the delivery is all that gets heard, NOT the content.

He could have read the bible or the constitution or French to me, but if he's yelled it or if I felt attacked, I did not hear him. I just wanted to flee.

Plus, most men are larger and stronger than their wives. So this happens that much more. You are physically, by definition, more threatening even when you don't want to be. (But sometimes though, deep down, the raised voice IS trying to intimidate.)
Fear is not a way to keep a woman; it makes someone want to flee.

We may say we are independent women and we may BE independent financially and all, but deep down, we still want our h's to be providers who can protect us. Whether they provide financial security (it helps!!) and or emotional security (i.e. calm in the storm, a reliable shoulder we can lean on, a pillar of strength and source of security...)

or physical security ("what's the noise downstairs? I'll back you up but don't make me go FIRST!! Geez, you're a foot taller and have 50 lbs on me!!")

we want some form of protection....so the last thing to do is take away the protective feelings. That is why healthy women FLEE FAR, when the protector becomes the threatener. Never use force or intimidation to bully your wife. It'll totally undermine her feeling of safety in your arms, and if there is OM offering her protection in the storms of life and you've offered raised voices, criticism, anger, judgment, well...who do you think she'll turn to?

it's like the CAVEMAN theory...in which the cave man leaves the cave for food and the cavewoman keeps the fire going, and the baby safe and fed. So she moves the burned ashes out of the cave to keep the air clear, she keeps the place ready and warm for the caveman and the baby is fed with her body or efforts

..but he needs to bring back some meat or berries or something...b/c she is waiting for him and there is a baby to care for (this applies to couples without children IF they are considering having them someday b/c every woman in a R who wants kids someday, is looking at her partner for what type of father he'll be and the whole provider thing plays more then)

and if there's a sabertooth tiger outside, they both team up to protect the child but it's the caveMAN there in front, b/c he's bigger and stronger than she is, but hey, shs guarding the kids with HER life and or, she's backing her h up with her own club...

I think at a biological level, there is some truth to this^^ theory, even if we hate sounding so primitive. Later in life, the financial security matters even more as we come to face the prospect of poverty in our "golden" years, college for our kids, health problems, and some Scary stuff...

But I digress...hope that helps.

The WAW letter is next...

[25yearsmlc]

And so, here is the letter which I think was sent to a man here named "Denver" or Denver 2010". And if I recall right, Denver did some deep digging and really did change. He was baffled by her refusal to hop on home..originally, before he dug deep, he was just furious that she'd left at all, but like I said, he did some deep digging in himself, and some brave hard work---and last I read, they were in piecing towards a reconciliation...

also remember that you MUST think of things from your wife's perspective b/c for now, that's all that matters to HER...

while your 180s, GAL and detaching are what you need to focus on,

-- in order to do your own personal growth work...to becoming men, only fools would leave...

So see if this helps guide you in your quests.

FROM A WAW, TO "DENVER", A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED, AND WONDERS WHY HIS OWN WAW HAS NOT RETURNED HOME YET,

OR HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM…

"When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H. Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen h so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from.

When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.

And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H, and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.

You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to "win". (Check your ego).

Even today you say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her, and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell."

[RedHawk98]

25! I can't quote every line, but you've summed up where my head and heart are now. I couldn't agree more with everything you've said.

I would be open to counselling, on top of the learning this experience has given me.
At the moment, I'm just enjoying feeling calm and positive for the first time in 18 months.

If my wife were to return, I'll keep the list as concise as possible;

* My wife and our marriage would be paramount to all other things, at all times.

* We would have privacy for the first time. With better boundaries for friends and family. (Which relates to the point above) This would also make for much less inhibited intimacy. (Our sex lives were so repressed without privacy)

* My ability to handle extremely stressful situations has improved. I also realise that trying to protect her from those was a colossal mistake.

* I myself would be happier in general. Due to, and because of, my more positive disposition. More ready and able to do fun things together, without worrying about money or other people taking up my time.

* I have regained a lot of confidence I lost. This means I enjoy putting more effort into my appearance.
I feel more like my old self, before the crash, but enhanced beyond that.

* My employment/career prospects have improved, meaning that not only does she no longer need to assist me near the end of the month, I can reasonably support both of us in having a family.

* Most of all, I have a clear head for the first time in years to actually LISTEN to every word my wife has to say. To make joint decisions that make us both happy.
Because we actually do want all the same things out of life.

When my wife said "I don't see a future with you." It meant a lot more than just another way of saying "I want a divorce".

[RedHawk98]

Apologies 25. I've just seen your second post re:Response of WAW.

It certainly makes for humbling reading.
I know my wife felt terribly lonely and disappointed for a period of time.
How long that period of time was, I can't be sure.
We were always both very happy with each other. But not our circumstances.

This is the part that has kept me awake at night. Working out what is real from "WAW script/Affair Fog" (If you believe in such a thing at all? I'm interested in your opinion on that.)
I agree with around 50% of my wife's criticisms. They were totally valid! I addressed them as fast as I could under the circumstances.

The other 50% is where she will deny absolutely anything positive regarding us. Things said. Plans made.
Complete denial. Will contradict herself constantly. Some bare faced lies too.

Very frustrating. But I can understand she needed to validate her "crush" (as it took her 9 months to confess to, but no more) to some level.
They have been together all along on and off.

I know you can't always apply Logic to Feelings.

I just wish I had the 25/Starsky Tag Team a year ago. Your advice would have made such a difference.