"Man The F*** Up" The Ultimate 180

[25yearsmlc]

Redhawk, (and OX)

I posted something earlier today that I think could be useful to both of you. For the life of me I'm too tired to see if it was you (ox) whom I posted it to, but if so, just see if it hits you any differently seeing it now. I'll post it after this b/c it's too long as it is!

Ox, your m was longer and that is mostly a great thing, but you also had a lot of negatives in the dynamics If I'm recall correctly.

So there is damage in your wife you may not realize. Yes, I mean damage from you.

What would either of you do differently if your wives were to return? And how, or where are you getting NEW coping tools (since the olds ones have not worked)??

I mean, the definition of insanity is repeating the same behaviors, but expecting different results.

You cannot just repeat the past, unless you want it ALL repeated...surely you both want your old marriages to die in order to rebuild and restore them into new, stronger ones?

Otherwise, you'd be back here every time you are in a new r of any duration. So think about how you'd get NEW COPING TOOLS to make things different/better than before.

---REMEMBER not to project too much of your situations onto the others...I mean, Redhawk and Ox, while I see similar veins in how you both communicate with your wives (not productively for the most part) I also see some projections of your situations that I don't see as fitting. Redhawk, your wife and you are both SO young and it shows in ways that are not helping you. Take some marriage courser or a marriage seminar if you ever reconcile for good. YOU can take personal growth workshops on your own you know. They cannot hurt and for ME and later for my h, they've worked wonders (Same for you Ox. Look up "Essential Experience" in Philadelphia, which is for individuals. Amaxing that so many DBers and people in my field, and the medical professions have gotten so much out of it. It's not for "crazy" folks, it's for people who are fundamentally cognitively aware enough to want to learn how to change their lives and willing to do what it takes. It's wonderful to get all that in a long HARD weekend...For couples, it's wonderful but it's aimed at individuals, so if you want to do a couples thing, and if your only issues are the marriage ( doubting that...) then when appropriate, go to Retrovaille, That's designed for couples in crisis and though it was started in the Catholic Church, you do NOT have to be catholic to go. My h is not and believe me, I always worry someone will try to convert him..I know HE worries about that...over 30 years have passed, and so far no one has.

Okay so please forgive me for being blunt --but the hour is late... I think you both go in circles a lot with your wives, and you just talk too much. Especially for men.

It can come off as bullying to "win" the argument. OR as petulant, like a child.

NOTE that in R talks, there is NO "winning".

There is being heard, being respected/validated, considered, ignored, cared about, dismissed or bullied.

Tone and volume often mean more than what is said. Content gets lost fast.

EXAMPLE: My dad was a lawyer and public speaker by profession. When he spoke to me it was almost always a lecture. He was comfortable in a "teaching" mode and saw that as his job as a father (many h's do this as well).

But the moment his tone with me was AT ALL irritated or impatient, (to me), I tuned him out.
If he raised his voice, I tuned him out.

Fact is, when someone SOUNDS angry ---then the delivery is all that gets heard, NOT the content.

He could have read the bible or the constitution or French to me, but if he's yelled it or if I felt attacked, I did not hear him. I just wanted to flee.

Plus, most men are larger and stronger than their wives. So this happens that much more. You are physically, by definition, more threatening even when you don't want to be. (But sometimes though, deep down, the raised voice IS trying to intimidate.)
Fear is not a way to keep a woman; it makes someone want to flee.

We may say we are independent women and we may BE independent financially and all, but deep down, we still want our h's to be providers who can protect us. Whether they provide financial security (it helps!!) and or emotional security (i.e. calm in the storm, a reliable shoulder we can lean on, a pillar of strength and source of security...)

or physical security ("what's the noise downstairs? I'll back you up but don't make me go FIRST!! Geez, you're a foot taller and have 50 lbs on me!!")

we want some form of protection....so the last thing to do is take away the protective feelings. That is why healthy women FLEE FAR, when the protector becomes the threatener. Never use force or intimidation to bully your wife. It'll totally undermine her feeling of safety in your arms, and if there is OM offering her protection in the storms of life and you've offered raised voices, criticism, anger, judgment, well...who do you think she'll turn to?

it's like the CAVEMAN theory...in which the cave man leaves the cave for food and the cavewoman keeps the fire going, and the baby safe and fed. So she moves the burned ashes out of the cave to keep the air clear, she keeps the place ready and warm for the caveman and the baby is fed with her body or efforts

..but he needs to bring back some meat or berries or something...b/c she is waiting for him and there is a baby to care for (this applies to couples without children IF they are considering having them someday b/c every woman in a R who wants kids someday, is looking at her partner for what type of father he'll be and the whole provider thing plays more then)

and if there's a sabertooth tiger outside, they both team up to protect the child but it's the caveMAN there in front, b/c he's bigger and stronger than she is, but hey, shs guarding the kids with HER life and or, she's backing her h up with her own club...

I think at a biological level, there is some truth to this^^ theory, even if we hate sounding so primitive. Later in life, the financial security matters even more as we come to face the prospect of poverty in our "golden" years, college for our kids, health problems, and some Scary stuff...

But I digress...hope that helps.

The WAW letter is next...