Hi I'm new, I hope I won't be a burden... prt 3

[lost18]

Have you made any changes?????

[1Wish]

Have you made any changes?????

yes I have.. they are validating feelings.. no begging pleading.. pma.. still a doormat to be honest.. learning to control emotions.. trying to detach..

Ok so all is not lost just the last pages confused me when it mentioned that if you change and it dont work they are done. Disheartened me.

[lost18]

Mr Bond?? Didn't you go months without speaking to your wife while you were separated and yet reconciled?

1W...you have been at this a very short time. I understand you are young so 2 months may seem like a long time, but you are just starting. I've seen it many times on these boards...it's a marathon, not a sprint.

[25yearsmlc]

1w

read my signature block...see how long my m took to reconcile?

if a few months of trouble is too much for you, maybe you are not meant to be married at all. If you're really suicidal, CALL FOR HELP...

Otherwise, you need a much longer viewpoint. Marriage is supposed to be for life, but for that to be true, we have to stop being defeated by a few MONTHS of pain.

This process is a marathon, Not a sprint.

You need to strengthen yourself as a man & as a partner. Get some discipline. What would that look like?

Begin by using the advice you are getting. Without that step, which only you can take, you're just surrendering to problems.

Thats not appealing or attractive (esp at your young age), & more importantly, it'll keep You from being a happier person.

Do the work, & stop whining. There is no shame in getting help for this. Do you have a counselor? If not, please get one asap.

Most of us did. I sure did.

Keep on keeping on

[25yearsmlc]

Ive only got the divorce busting book.. ive read the 5ll.. love must be tough.. married mans sex life primer..

Ive finished the db book but I think I should read it over again atleast 3 more times.

Makes sense. The Div Remedy book is really the 2nd edition of the first DB book and spends more time on techniques than on how bad an idea divorce is.

But DB is very useful for sure. Seems you believe that since the last part of the "instruction manual" says that when all the exercises and methods have been attempted for sufficient amounts of time and yet still fail, you must move on.

How is it that you refuse to try the methods (aside from a few word changes) for any amount of time and now feel all is lost?

I mean, talk about skipping ahead. You skipped THE WORK IN THE BOOK.

Is it that you want us to tell you which single page you must "do" and THEN we can guarantee you a positive result?

B/c that's a shortcut fantasy...and it keeps you spinning in place, instead of moving in a direction, by actually implementing the work.

You said you are in IT, right? So if someone presents you with a problem, do you say "I should give up NOW, without trying anything --- b/c whatever problem solving exists, might not work?"

No, you'd explore the problems and try different approaches until you solved the problem.

That's called problem solving. Do that. With yourself, by working on yourself and changing your behaviors.

You might think that it requires you to change your mental attitude first, OR your attitude may change - after - you change the behaviors. But DO CHANGE.

Start by DOING things differently, just like the book says. Give it a chance and do not mix up approaches, or you do a disservice to all of them.

Give Div Busting a REAL chance. That takes time. Use it wisely.

[1Wish]

I will not give up.. I will try my best and if it comes to a divorce then atleast I kn.ow I tried it all.. I really do find detaching extremely difficult its unbelievable. How the hell do you do that? I feel me moving out and no contacts the only way.. correct me if im wrong.. but ive already been told to go

[25yearsmlc]

I will not give up.. I will try my best and if it comes to a divorce then atleast I kn.ow I tried it all.. I really do find detaching extremely difficult its unbelievable. How the hell do you do that? I feel me moving out and no contacts the only way.. correct me if im wrong.. but ive already been told to go

OKAY this may be my last attempt, so listen up b/c I'm quoting other experts and giving you as much as I have...

Here, we generally advise against the LBS moving out. Why? Mainly for 2 reasons.
First --we all share legal concerns about a spouse leaving the marital home and then being accused of abandonment, or just getting used to not being there and having the courts say 'that must be alright then' and the LBS then loses some legal protections.

Secondly we tend to urge the LBSer to say to the WAS, "you leave if you want out, why should I be the one to go?"

HOWEVER, no one answer fits all scenarios. There are exceptions and if I'm not mistaken, your situation IS an exception. That's b/c your wife owns or her name is on the lease or something like that. Is THAT correct?

IF SO, and IF the other condition (below) applies, then you maybe need to leave. Otherwise, you could force her to get a restraining order, which does not help you legally or in how your wife would see you.

The other issue you mention often is how hard it is for YOU to detach. Not that it's easy for any of us, but I sense you have fewer coping tools than some of us here.

(SIDE NOTE: that is clearly something you must work on in general. I mean, seriously you need to. At your age I was in a hard law school, pregnant with our first child, holding down a job and married to my h. There was a lot for me to deal with, especially with an unplanned pregnancy. But I did it. Life is that way for all of us --unexpected curve balls, not all of our own making--so you need to get some coping tools. I suggest therapy or some weekend workshops for that. If you are interested, we can discuss those later)


For you, perhaps, moving out is better than staying there, IF staying there means you continue to engage in destructive behaviors that get you nowhere fast, or ruin your chances of change and reconciliation. Does it mean that?

Frankly, when my h left our home I was torn. You'd think I'd panic or sob (and I did a bit of both at the time), but I also sensed that at least one thing would improve, which was the level of tension inside the home.

It DID IMPROVE when he left. Just NOT having him in front of me rejecting our marriage on a daily basis, was easier than seeing it in my face every day or evening. If I had obsessed about where he was or with whom, I'd have driven myself nuts. I could have done that but see, the thing is, I GAL instead.

It turns out that my h could only figure out where the grass was greenest, by leaving the home and being truly alone (I am sure he dated some OWs. If they mattered enough to him to have an A, I would have known b/c we would not be reconciled. Also, fwiw, I also dated while we were legally sep. I am NOT recommending it, I am merely informing you that dating OPs and or knowing my h might be, is not the scary monster for me, that it was for some.)

WHY?

Here is what I learned by dating Other Men...

First, most of them were very nice, intelligent men. Even so, a few were not that smart, and it made me immediately miss my h more, not less)

and a few were out of shape (which also made me miss my h more, b/c he's always taken good care of his physique); and some of the men I met were very different than me religiously or politically, (which mostly made me miss my h more as well).

For me, dating showed 2 good things to me.

It showed me that there are some very kind, attractive and compatible men out there for me if I so chose. I know that it's not a dessert out there for me, even at this OLD age. So I am choosing to stay married NOT out of fear of being alone (which is also not the worst thing in the world anyhow).


But secondly, dating OMs showed me that for the most part, my h and I are pretty well suited for each other. I'm not sure how else I could have learned that. At your wife's age, I cannot imagine that she "knows" you are the only man for her, b/c you are not. There are other men out there who'd be good to her, just as there exist other women who'd be good to you. I don't know if you are healthy enough to spot those women, but I do know that your fears of being alone are not rational. But since you want your m to work, that's what we'll talk about now.

At your age, most people are not yet married. So you are not in a position to rationally fear being alone the rest of your life. Seriously...

So stop that negative thinking. It makes your situation worse, not better, to worry and obsess. DETACH.

And here's the thing about detaching... it's not easy - but it is NOT complicated, no matter what excuse you are trying to use.

Detachment does not mean indifference or rudeness or being curt, to your spouse.

It DOES mean not taking everything she does or says, so personally, or so permanently. After all, just b/c we SAY something does not make it true. Even when it is true, it can change. So how you or I feel on a given day, is not a lifetime commitment to always feeling that exact way. Right? Okay...

Here's a piece on Detachment, originally from a DB person named Peanut.

"Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally all that is said, or not said, done and not done.

Our ego gets wounded and we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals. We cannot control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.

If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love. Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’

It is the natural acceptance that I am alone responsible for how I act. I can not control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."

HOW to detach? Though there are a variety of ways, the one thing that everyone must do to detach, is to GET A LIFE. I say it, b/c it works. Seriously, you must GAL in order to Detach. Occupy your mind with thoughts OTHER than of your wife, or fears about her with some OM, etc.

Getting A Life means overcoming your inertia/fear of doing new things. In fact, if you GAL for real, you'll find yourself doing FUN things that are stimulating and enriching to your life. Some of them will be things you "always wanted to do but..." and some will be things you come up with yourself just by a comment or thing you see on TV or whatever...

Let me tell you, I am proud of my GAL efforts b/c I GAL IN A BIG BIG LIFE CHANGING WAY....

AND I did it in the interior of Alaska and yes, some of this was done in the winter. NOT EASY. Took planning and action on my end.

I literally had to get out of my home with outside temperatures of negative 40'F, a lot. It also got colder but for the most part, hovered between -40'F and -20'F in the winter. And it was DARK FOR MANY HOURS...and at that time, we had 3 kids including a newborn.

As you can imagine, if you can imagine another point of view-- because sometimes you don't seem to have empathy for anyone else's perspective, which itself is a thing for you to work on,

that means I don't want to hear about how uniquely difficult GAL is, for you. Okay?

I mean, your youth is a huge advantage. The only disadvantage your age is, is that you probably have never had to overcome something difficult, that was not quickly resolved.

And if that^^ is true, then at least we can say you will become stronger thru this experience.

The one thing every successful DBer does, is become a better, stronger person.


I do not define "successful DBer" as someone who saved their marriage. I define it as someone who applied the DB methods of making our lives and our happiness OUR responsibility. And doing the work that it takes.

Maybe you need to be a much stronger man for the rest of your life --- b/c you want to be a husband and a father someday, right?

Being a father means, in part, that your children will look up to you and NEED YOU to be strong for them.

What if a child of yours got sick or injured? Would you fall apart? Would you spend your time whining about how hard it is for YOU to have a sick child?

Or would you man up, and help them? I hope/believe the latter. So let's figure out ways for you to GAL soon.

Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w.

I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.

I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).

I was on the board of directors for Wrestling.

I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people.
I got cast in the shows, too.

I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it).

I once did a whole set on MLCs at the Improv in Hollywood. It went very well.
I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.

I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.

I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding it.

I Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.

I edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)

I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. It's also healthy.

(Plus I'd just had our last child. I needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly cold of Alaska's LONG winters).

Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs. They helped stop the cycle of obsessive or negative thinking.

Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).

Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty & ignoring them.
(Wish I had joined sooner! I met two women there, who are dear friends to this day.)

Joined a writer's group.

Took a class in Conversational French, which meant a lot to me personally.

Took a class in Italian cooking, and it's still delicious.

There is more to this^^ list.

I just you to see a few things YOU CAN DO that do not cost a lot of money or time. Almost all of these activities involved meeting other people.

Almost no one I met, knew my h or my situation and that helps.

Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or cheap.

I asked myself this question, which I now also pose to you. What would my life be like without my h, but with me being happy?

Suppose for instance, he'd been killed in a car crash before the MLC. Would I actually collapse for long, and lay in the fetal position and give up on life and just.....stop...?? I doubted it, so I began to imagine life without him after I had finished the grief process (remember the hypothetical. Your wife suddenly passes away and then, enough time has passed that you begin to live your life again)

So what would that look like? Would you change careers, or live somewhere else? Would you travel more? What hobbies might you take up? Any classes you'd take or things you'd study? Any new friends or would you join a club or a church?

THINK about this^^ and flesh it out. Lots of details and again, remember that in this scenario, you are happy. What do you believe you'd be doing?

AND SO...What of those^^^ things/activities, can you do, now?


For an expensive GAL, much later, I took my kids to Italy. What a blast!!

The planning of it was half the fun, but the other part was that none of it reminded me of h. ALL of it was new and stimulating. I showed my kids that we were still a "family" regardless of where their dad was. Like most military families, we can miss a parent and still enjoy life.

You can be without your wife, and be happy.


IWISH....if this^^ does not help you, then I'm totally out of ideas.

[Thornton]

25, thank you for taking the time to post this.

[nit84]

Well there it is 1wish.

Please try and absorb what 25 is giving you.

She did a lot of work for you, she has done it for others also but to have her do it for you should make you feel good.

Use her advice to your advantage. It is up to YOU now.


P.S. Thanks 25 always good to read your posts!!

[1Wish]

I have read it and have read it over again, I need to GAL I understand now why its important. Its so you detach and dont obsess about the waw

"Here, we generally advise against the LBS moving out. Why? Mainly for 2 reasons.
First --we all share legal concerns about a spouse leaving the marital home and then being accused of abandonment, or just getting used to not being there and having the courts say 'that must be alright then' and the LBS then loses some legal protections. 

Secondly we tend to urge the LBSer to say to the WAS, "you leave if you want out, why should I be the one to go?"

HOWEVER, no one answer fits all scenarios. There are exceptions and if I'm not mistaken, your situation IS an exception. That's b/c your wife owns or her name is on the lease or something like that. Is THAT correct?"

yes this is correct so it makes sense for me to leave.

"IF SO, and IF the other condition (below) applies, then you maybe need to leave. Otherwise, you could force her to get a restraining order, which does not help you legally or in how your wife would see you."

Yeah as hard as it may be I really do not want to make my sitch worse.

"The other issue you mention often is how hard it is for YOU to detach. Not that it's easy for any of us, but I sense you have fewer coping tools than some of us here."

A hell of a lot less.. I really need these life skills and I understand you guys are trying to teach me these things but I am failing.

"For you, perhaps, moving out is better than staying there, IF staying there means you continue to engage in destructive behaviors that get you nowhere fast, or ruin your chances of change and reconciliation. Does it mean that?"

If im being honest its really not as bad as I make it out to be.. well in comparison to how it was when the first bomb drop was.. at that point she literally treated me like [censored] it was unbelievable now that I look back.. the hard part of it is the emotions I feel.

I usually tall about the relationship and tend to talk in future terms.. shes very friendly with me however she does get angry a lot when im on my phone.. end of the day if she wants out why is she complaining im on my phone? Also she gets really jelous where as before it wasnt as bad.. maybe now that im working out?

"Frankly, when my h left our home I was torn. You'd think I'd panic or sob (and I did a bit of both at the time), but I also sensed that at least one thing would improve, which was the level of tension inside the home."

I just cant imagine how you lived through this with a newborn, pardon me but what a prick to have done that at that crucial point of your life.

"It DID IMPROVE when he left. Just NOT having him in front of me rejecting our marriage on a daily basis, was easier than seeing it in my face every day or evening. If I had obsessed about where he was or with whom, I'd have driven myself nuts. I could have done that but see, the thing is, I GAL instead."

see mine isnt rejecting it shes "confused" back and forth on ending and staying.. at times it shows shes made up her mind and she wants a divorce but when she calms down shes confused again and goes back to future talks. Its like shes playing mind games seriously.. or shes just saying future stuff to ease my pain? I really dont know and this is what effects me so bad.

I have a feeling I will obsess and do crazy stuff.. I hadnt even moved out and I got her billing details and all her other friends billing details because I have a good network of people that can bring those up for me. I went so far to even get the guy that she spoke to's address from his phone contract records..

"It turns out that my h could only figure out where the grass was greenest, by leaving the home and being truly alone (I am sure he dated some OWs. If they mattered enough to him to have an A, I would have known b/c we would not be reconciled. Also, fwiw, I also dated while we were legally sep. I am NOT recommending it, I am merely informing you that dating OPs and or knowing my h might be, is not the scary monster for me, that it was for some.) "

It would bloody kill me to find out if she saw anyone else like seriously I dont think id ever take her back.. if your telling me that by me galling I detach then find that out then my oh my.. never will I see her in the same light.. I will jus walk away and never look back.

"At your age, most people are not yet married. So you are not in a position to rationally fear being alone the rest of your life. Seriously..."

I dont fear being alone my whole life.. to be frank I have always found it easy to get girls not being big headed or anything its just the fact that my wife gave me love that ive never experienced.. she was such a good girlfriend when we were dating and she made me her everything on top of that is she really hot and my fear is she will find someone easily because it wont be hard for her.. or me to be honest but I feel itll be longer for me as im still in the stage of being totally in love with her.

if im being honest before she decided to drop the bomb I myself was thinking of leaving her.. doesnt make sense.. we fell apart.

"So stop that negative thinking. It makes your situation worse, not better, to worry and obsess. DETACH.

And here's the thing about detaching... it's not easy - but it is NOT complicated, no matter what excuse you are trying to use.

Detachment does not mean indifference or rudeness or being curt, to your spouse. 

It DOES mean not taking everything she does or says, so personally, or so permanently. After all, just b/c we SAY something does not make it true. Even when it is true, it can change. So how you or I feel on a given day, is not a lifetime commitment to always feeling that exact way. Right? Okay..."

thats right, to be honest I have learnt to control my emotions for example when she wears hotter clothes ot gets to me but I tell myself detach detach detach just dont care.. f her..

"If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love. Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals. 

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle."

what is the positive reaction this person speaks of may I get an example please?

"Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’"

I feel like detachment for me IS withdrawal I need to understand this concept fully.

"It is the natural acceptance that I am alone responsible for how I act. I can not control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."

can I really? Lol I feel like I have the worst self control due to a possibility of fear coupled with insecurity and jelousy. Its so bad. Obviously at the end of the day ots just ME.

"HOW to detach? Though there are a variety of ways, the one thing that everyone must do to detach, is to GET A LIFE. I say it, b/c it works. Seriously, you must GAL in order to Detach. Occupy your mind with thoughts OTHER than of your wife, or fears about her with some OM, etc."

this is what im afraid of and always thinking about if shes woth OM omg it kills me.. so hard to explain damn it takes over my mind and makes me act irrattionaly i will do this gal as soon as im back at mums. I swear it.. I really need to find a way of not contacting her and not even acting but being kl with whatever she does.

my one big deep fear is.. if I dont mention or talk about how much I want her she will feel its easier for her to leave as she says she might stay for my sake because she feels sorry for me. This is a big one for me and dont know how to what to do about it.. she has also mentioned that she doesnt know if its a mistake that shes making and feels that a space would give her the right decision.. she says that she has her own fears that if we end she has no one.. no family and doesnt know what shes going to do.. I really need help on this major number 1 fear of mine.. that if I fully db she may find it easier to go. But I also do know that me talking about is out of my fear however it never helps the relationship and I keep backtracking my progress as she always gets angry about it.

"Getting A Life means overcoming your inertia/fear of doing new things."

I honestly dont have that fear its just the fact that when im with my wife I feel that I should spend every moment with her as it may be my last.. if im at my mums I know for a fact I would be out and about doing things.. I usually was before she dropped the bomb.

"I literally had to get out of my home with outside temperatures of negative 40'F, a lot. It also got colder but for the most part, hovered between -40'F and -20'F in the winter. And it was DARK FOR MANY HOURS...and at that time, we had 3 kids including a newborn."

I admire your courage to do what you did.. did you not give up on your marriage at this point and thought he would never come back? Just cant believe he done that to you when you really needed him considering your newborn.

"that means I don't want to hear about how uniquely difficult GAL is, for you.Okay? "

Thats fine galling is not difficult for me its just that I feel I have to be around my wife as these may be the last moments.. its my emotions that dictate my attitude and behaviour. I hate it.

"I mean, your youth is a huge advantage. The only disadvantage your age is, is that you probably have never had to overcome something difficult, that was not quickly resolved."

trust me your so right here.. I mean I did experience stuff like this when me and my ex broke up but this is by far the worst.

"And if that^^ is true, then at least we can say you will become stronger thru this experience."

honestly hope so.. I never want to go through this again.

"The one thing every successful DBer does, is become a better, stronger person."

I just hope I dont hang on to a false hope too long.. when would it be time to let go? When the divorce is finalised right?

"Maybe you need to be a much stronger man for the rest of your life --- b/c you want to be a husband and a father someday, right? "

Damn right and I damn well hope I do become a stronger person.

"I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. It's also healthy."

Omg same happening to me.. looking in shape makes a huge difference for me.. ive got all my swag back.. I do my hair and everything.. I kinda lost it wen I got married and let go..

"Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs. They helped stop the cycle of obsessive or negative thinking."

AD? I need that badly the stopping obsessive and negative thinking patterns.

"Almost no one I met, knew my h or my situation and that helps."

hmm maybe thats why you have to meet people that dont know the wife so your not reminded of her right?

"I asked myself this question, which I now also pose to you. What would my life be like without my h, but with me being happy?"

My life would be great with or without her I know this but I cant accept it I dont know why.. I have a big need for her to stay in my life and I dont know why I do.. is it because we built a life together and had plans for the future? Ah so hard

"Suppose for instance, he'd been killed in a car crash before the MLC. Would I actually collapse for long, and lay in the fetal position and give up on life and just.....stop...?? I doubted it, so I began to imagine life without him after I had finished the grief process (remember the hypothetical. Your wife suddenly passes away and then, enough time has passed that you begin to live your life again)"

This is a good concept to use I will use this for a fact to help the obsession and negativity.

"So what would that look like? Would you change careers, or live somewhere else? Would you travel more? What hobbies might you take up? Any classes you'd take or things you'd study? Any new friends or would you join a club or a church?"

I would probably go on holiday, upgrade my car.. go shopping and change my wardrobe.. go paintballing.. go do sports.. quad biking.. go to theme parks.. and just do a lot of different activities.

"AND SO...What of those^^^ things/activities, can you do, now?"

wow your good because I can do it all now.

"For an expensive GAL, much later, I took my kids to Italy. What a blast!!"

I think you deserved that break after everything you went through and I thought mine was bad.