one last chance

[25yearsmlc]

It sounds to me that your saying is that everything truly is all my fault?

Is that really how it sounds to you? I'm very precise with my wording. =

WHERE did I say "it's all your fault"?

Here is what happened & you can simply read my post again to confirm....When you described a flawed behavior or mistake YOU made, with your explanations attached, you'd then said things like "I blame myself for that flaw".

I think a better phrase would be "I see it as a flaw & I am taking responsibility for it now". And of course, that IS YOUR JOB. Who else should be responsible for your suicide attempts? Who else should be responsible for your porn issues? They are your issues. You need tools to resolve them; b/c my gut says they are clearly still problematic.

Own your mistakes and move on. But "owning" a mistake or bad behavior means, by definition, that you are working to STOP that mistake from being repeated.

Blaming others for your choices will get you nowhere and it's not adult behavior.


I don't understand your questioning.

I asked you many questions based on your post, which I went thru line by line. What questions do you not understand?

I was just stating the past events that W brought up after the bomb drop plus a few of my thought patterns. I do take my faults upon myself and am getting help. I have sought IC and support groups in the past and now.

"I do take my faults upon myself"...well, yes, we should all work on our faults if we really think they are faults....and it's OUR WORK TO DO

Your job, is working on your flaws/your life.
My question about "who else would you blame?" is meant to show you that hey, these are YOURS TO HANDLE so, I guess it's not exactly heroic to say "I have these flaws and they are mine to work on..." It's just reality; they're yours to work on so YOU have to do that work.

It's the start of adult behavior in which you see a problem in how you acted or spoke, realize it's NOT okay, and then YOU work to change it asap. That's what healthy adults do. You did not see that growing up and one question I like to ask folks here is "How was forgiveness modeled in your childhood? What did it look like?

How were conflicts resolved or worked out, in your family while you were growing up? My guess is NOT well.

So you have to get the tools for conflict resolution and better communication, despite what you grew up with. You must break the cycle!

My dad was a raging alcoholic for years, and he had several college degrees...YES it affected me. So in my last 20s when I became a lawyer and mother the same summer, I began to seek out therapists.

I got some tools for handling things better, b/c I had NOT seen that growing up. I didn't get those tools back then, so I had to learn it, just like I had to learn "HOW" to forgive. The workshops are like years of therapy like to rant

I'm glad you are getting help. I can't abide by violence anywhere in a marriage, although you were also rough with her physically even while dating. That's a red flag, btw. So that has been a long standing problem. Which means some part of her must have had low self esteem to marry a guy who'd been physical with her, at all.

And please don't instantly add that "SHE IS VIOLENT TOO" or "we both are controlling/aggressive/violent b/c that is petty sounding (like a child saying 'she hit me first')..AND it's not relevant now.

SHE is not here trying to save the m, you are. So who cares what SHE did? We only care about the person here, working on himself. Besides, her hitting you first is actually NOT a defense. Unless you restrained her b/c she is bigger/stronger than you and you feared for your life, (in which case you LEAVE the home and take the kids with you to protect them)

but you do NOT hit back or shove, push, kick, or throw things. Aside from looking like a tantrum, throwing things is frightening and you seem to have had that as your goal--"Scare'intimidate her". It's NOT EVER acceptable. And if you don't believe that was your goal, then what was? Not "the explanation" for it, but the goal of throwing things at or near her or in ways she could hear or see. WHAT were you hoping would then happen?

Leave the home if you fear you'll hit or touch or assault her in any way (Unwanted physical touch IS assault & battery, btw). I don't know anyone in an abusive relationship anymore, b/c of the few friends I had who faced that issue, every single one of them is divorced now.

I shudder to think of your son's views of marriage & their mom, with the letters they wrote and your reaction...they really blame HER for everything abad that doest NOT HELP YOU. Trying to shame her (which was the underlying goal in your son's letters to her, & I suspect your goals in recent communications with her),

but the condemnations and shaming attempts will fail.

They'll corner her, which is bad for the marriage, ever, let alone at a time like now... When you or your sons challenge her choices that much, you forced her to defend those choices (instead of giving her the space to evaluate the choices, and instead of changing yourself so that while she was examining if maybe she had rushed into the A/divorce, she was cornered and condemned...That means she's MORE LIKELY to follow thru the divorce...

Back to the outbursts and throwing things...my h threw something once when he was in his final exams for med school. A vase, and he did NOT throw it at me but he broke it when he hit the wall. True, he was very sleep deprived & stressed and his own dad was a violent man. So what? I was not going to have that in my adult life; as I"d had enough crazy in my childhood.

And the thing is, I Knew sleep deprivation would happen again. What was going to be different? (BTW We had no kids then.)

when he threw the vase in frustration and it broke against the wall, he immediately said it was "not aimed" at me. (Well, thank God, but so what? It still meant he was out of control. FYI, I have never done that to any object, in my LIFE. I grew up with it, but I sure did not repeat that cycle. It can be broken.

So i left & checked into a hotel. I would not come home if I had to witness that type of "out of control behavior again, ever". Also we sought counseling. That was 33 years ago. He's never repeated that behavior.

SO TO ME, the fact that we both took it seriously and we both went to IC and together and it never happened again, is what it means to "own our flaws" or "take the blame". (Since blame implies shame for many, you may want to say "own mistakes" b/c it's more empowering and more accurate b/c hey, they are yours to own and no one else can fix you. NO one else broke you.

And you cannot fix your wife, either.

Understand that when you threw things in anger, in effect, you are telling your family that you are NOT IN CONTROL OF YOURSELF...and that's frightening.

You are the man who is supposed to protect her/family, so that must have been traumatic for her.

I am not defending her affair. I AM NOT. I am redirecting your thoughts b/c you continue to harp about HER and almost nothing else, (except for the OM)

I want to hear a lot more about you, and the work you are doing on YOURSELF & YOUR LIFE.. Your 180s and your GAL, etc.

I know you grew up with a horrible example of marriage & partnership (and so did your mother), but hey, so did I. That's why we (h and me) attend workshops and read self help materials, attend support groups and or church, get counseling and sometimes seek medical help too.

That's the work we do to "own" our flaws.

In your post it sounded to me as if You went thru a long litany of the past, way past issues and so, I'm reframing them for you.

I am doing that b/c I'm trying to speed up your work, b/c it's taking too long. WHY DO I SAY THAT?

Most of your problems are pretty habitual, some going on decades. That's a long time to be working on faults you still have (though you say they are better- and that's good)...SO you say that you are "working on them". My post was to increase your motivation in that area. A nudge to "hurry it up", if you will.

I have gotten better from past help too which is why I'm not in much of those states anymore. She has brought up stuff from way back was my point. Much of this I have worked on and still do today.

I guess after reading your critique I should not try to save my marriage; I see that now.

Seriously?

You are either being manipulative or you completely misread my feedback.

It's as if you are saying that any feedback that holds you accountable, is just too hard for you.... and so you want to stop trying and you now think you should give up? I did not say to give up on the marriage.

I SAID TO WORK ON YOU, bc that is the only way you will ever have a real marriage again, with anyone. And you have a lot of work to do. You have suicide attempts and violence and self loathing running rampant in your history. You now say you are in active counseling but I did not get that clearly from you as happening presently...I felt you were saying the porn and the temper and cricitisms and anger problems were "worked on" and "better mostly" but not that you were putting your energy into them nearly as much as you are focussed on your wife.

Work on you. Div Busting is mostly about saving ourselves from ourselves and our own bad choices, (= working on our flaws!! to become the best people WE can become)

and when we save ourselves, we sometimes find our relationships are saved too.
As I read your answers below, I'm getting confused. That's why I highlight my words and bold print whatever you wrote that I'm addressing. Maybe you can try that sometime so I can recall which question you're answering...I asked a lot.


For the sake of trying to fix myself, I'll try to answer some of these questions.

*I don't understand myself why I asked those questions. Insecurity I suppose.

not sure which questions you are referring to...the questions about her past sex life??

*After first A we sought couples and individual counsel from the pastor at the church. A few months later we attended a weekend marriage seminar. After that it was swept under the rug.

So you felt better for that weekend but did not IMPLEMENT the TOOLS THEY GAVE YOU? That's my guess b/c those weekends usually offer some methods of coping with recurrent problems, so the problems get better and love is restored.

*For what it's worth, she brought some videos to bed too. For those with a problem, that's like giving a drink to a non practicing alcoholic. Yes, I see where I could have used some boundaries here but didn't.

*We have been attending church weekly since A#1 with few exceptions. Still do.

*Never forced. Coerced probably.


"Probably"??...

You wrote that you felt guilty about doing things in bed which she did not want to do. Obvoiusly you knew she did not want to do them, or you would not have done them, and then you felt guilty...

So, WHY did you feel guilty afterwards, unless you pressured or coerced her? Come on now...no editing your responses

See, I'm trying to get you to be fully HONEST, with at least yourself. You tend to gloss over what you did in the past. That may hurt you less in the moment, but in the long run, it keeps you from really taking responsibility for a flaw

(b/c really taking responsibility, always always means, getting rid of that flaw)

Normally I don't think digging thru the past helps us ---UNLESS we are repeating a pattern. I fear you might be, which is the pattern of saying "I already said sorry/made amends" and then thinking no harm was done by you, or an apology had "undone" the pain you caused.

Yes you use a microscope on HER mistakes, and magnifying the harm she does, and not moving past it.

Don't give yourself so many passes, if you won't give her any.


*All discussions have stopped since she moved out a month ago. There had been a few passing talks but no real communication.

GOOD^^^. No R talk. You have read the newbie rules that sandi assembled, right? So you know NOT to bring up any R talk and do NOT mention the OM. At all...


*Self loathing and guilt let to both suicide thoughts. I should not have used the word attempt as I never put into action my thoughts.

You specifically said things like "suicide attempt #1" and "led to 2nd suicide attempt"

and I THINK you said you were in the hospital and something about how you were checked out once they felt you were no longer a threat to yourself....

You were THINKING of suicide... and then .... You told her?

What was the goal or hope you had, in telling her and not someone else? Was it So that She'd feel "needed"? (FWIW, I don't think that is what was missing from the marriage for her, do you? OR to guilt her into staying with you, or what?

I know it's hard to face these things, but sweeping them under the rug does NOT improve anything for anyone.


We did talk about my getting checked out at the hospital one day but she said she would not hold it against me in the divorce or with the kids if I signed something saying her leaving was not abandoning the kids.

I'm confused. What does YOU getting checked out for psychological problems, (e.g. severe depression/suicidal thoughts/attempts??) have to do with a claim that she didn't abandon the family? That's not me criticizing, it's me asking.


I decided no to go. After she moved out, I was able to get at least 4-5 hours of sleep per night and not the 2 hours each night that I had been getting for weeks. This stopped thoughts of suicide.

*To clear the air about the niece; W never knew about my uncomfort until she said the stuff about "if we had girls". It brought back a memory I had long forgotten.

I would rough-house with the kids at family parties. This one older niece would always want to join in. It made me uncomfortable because she was older and developing. I put a lot of distance between her and I since.

Have you sought out counseling for these urges? I used to work w/men who had those urges and were in jail. It's good to put distance between you two, but depending on her age, you may need to seek out a T to really target this problem.

After I got more of a handle on my addiction

What "addiction"??? Oh, the Porn addiction?

Okay just to clarify --When you use the term "addiction" and THEN say you "got more of a handle on...", it concerns me b/c 12 step programs do not discuss addictions and then say he's "getting a handle" like that.

They don't tell alcoholics, "drink LESS"; they say "do not drink, b/c you are powerless over alcohol" "one drink is too many and a thousand is never enough"... They say "Do NOT do X", period. Understand?

I allowed a little more closeness as I no longer had any fear of my actions. This was after attending church and choosing for follow the teachings.

I am trying to learn that her actions and thoughts are not my responsibility. She had blamed me for her unhappiness and the affair which I understand is typical WAW stuff. With help from friends, pastor and IC plus the reading I'm doing is helping though slowly.

Gosh yes I hope you learn that lesson soon. It's hard to let go of what we cannot control but it's harder in the long run, to keep holding onto things we CANNOT control! Such a waste when you think of it, and it also hurts people when they witness that.

Remember, she's the state of "Iowa" and you are not. You are in charge of your own South Carolina. What goes on in her state is her business and what goes on in your state is ONLY your business.

SHE is not responsible for how you feel or think and YOU are NOT responsible for how SHE feels or thinks. Just stay in your sandbox and take care of you and your kids.

Back way off and try not to embellish or magnify things she does that hurt or annoy. It gives away all your power.

Make sense? It's quite late now and I'm rambling, so on that note, Good luck!