"When I'm with my W though, I don't bring it up. I have been doing great with talking more, listening, and just forgetting the ML part for a while."
This part is great! "Last night we sat in bed naked and just talked. It helped me not be so nervously upset when the lights went out. " This part, not as good. Because it still seems your focus is on sex, on not on her. Almost as if you're acting like you don't care, (good first step) but deep down, that's REALLY what you're concerned about, yourself and your needs. (If you hadn't said "naked" it wouldn't have popped out to me.)
See if you can really get your mind and heart on HER and HER NEEDS. Put yours on the back burner for now. You might see a difference.
Now, you're on a forum called "Divorce Busting". I hope you're not considering divorcing your wife after 8 dry weeks. (?) I get the strong sense that this might be on the table, as if she/you/somebody needs to fix this, or you're outta there.
Can you say: "PRESSURE"?
Pressure makes ML everything it's not supposed to be. Neither men, nor women, are at their best when there is pressure to "perform" as required.
Think about that and get back...
Caveat: I am a newbie and I would definitely take what the vets say over my two cents. I only feel comfortable posting here because I have personal experience in this area.
---GG
K, I hear you on the naked part.
But understand it wasn't like, "hey, let's get naked and talk." We sleep naked. I never could with anyone before, my W encouraged it and has always slept naked. It was more of, like, let's just stay up a little while but in bed and talk. I'm not gonna say talking while naked isn't a pretty nice way to have a conversation, but it wasn't outright sexual, I promise----it's normal for us, but usually she's so tired that she goes right to bed; this time it was nice that we both took that time to talk, deliberately.
I know it's called "divorce busting," but if there's one thing I've learned fom Michele and this site it's that my W and I aren't nearly as bad off as most. Michele makes it sound like the vast majority of the couples she sees have already experienced infidelity before they reach Divorce Busting. I don't love the name (nor any of the book titles, for that matter), but the content is invaluable.
And yeah, I did consider divorce. I considered it. I would never want it, but I'd be lying if I said the thought didn't cross my mind, especially when this first started.
But I know now that it was a silly idea. I don't think about divorce. We're not getting divorced. Promise. Learning from here and other experts has helped me realize just the idea of me and my W getting divorced doesn't make sense and isn't the way to solve this problem of ours.
I don't mean to make it sound like, "sex or divorce," but for a while I was focused on Michele's "Just Do It" idea and that if my W would just try to ML again that it would help us both. Frankly, I think she's right, and it would still do us good, only I know I can't be the one to say that, nor do I consider not having sex right now reason enough for divorce. Not trying to listen or change would probably be grounds for divorce, but even then it would have to be eventual, not right now.
For the record, both of us have made it clear, face to face, that we're going to strengthen our marriage and try to figure out a solution. We haven't been as completely specific as Michele outlines (at least not yet), but that might just have to wait for counseling, which we're getting ready for. So for now, it's still just patience. Some days are harder than others. Last night wasn't one of those hard days.
I read that first comment as flippant: "Don't take things so personally, another lesson from DB"
I think what you meant was: "Don't take things so personally" is another thing I have LEARNED at DB." Am I right?
Anyhow, according to DB principles, what I am still hearing is you defending yourself, instead of switching your focus to your wife and her needs at this time.
Obviously there is some kind of problem going on, but I think really tuning into HER right now, removing your desires from the equation, is the ONLY way you're going to find out what that is, and how to address it.
--GG
Me 54 Him 63 M 23 T 29 0 Kids Funny Farm of Rescues 12/12 OW-- 5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied 9/13 Proof OW: ENDED 2/14 Got D papers on my BD I kicked him out for my sanity 9/14 He wants to "talk"?
I read that first comment as flippant: "Don't take things so personally, another lesson from DB"
I think what you meant was: "Don't take things so personally" is another thing I have LEARNED at DB." Am I right?
Anyhow, according to DB principles, what I am still hearing is you defending yourself, instead of switching your focus to your wife and her needs at this time.
Obviously there is some kind of problem going on, but I think really tuning into HER right now, removing your desires from the equation, is the ONLY way you're going to find out what that is, and how to address it.
--GG
I hear you, and things seem to get lost in translation in talking here and it's impossible to be so specific on every single thing. People take things personally, I can't stop it, but trying to defend it every time, I dunno, it's like, it's not the point in the first place. I try to be both careful and descriptive, but it can't ever really be enough of either.
I think the only thing I feel like I'm having to defend is my right to be here and my right to feel like it's ok to desire to ML with my wife.
I might not be communicating it here very well because I'm defending what I'm saying here so often rather than what I'm actually doing at home with my W. And you're right, tuning into her is what needs to happen. And it's what's happening, both on my side and her side. She knows how I feel, so I stopped, I didn't pursue it further, and not only did I learn that from the DB book but I also agree with it and see it working----seeing progress, more than anything else, has been the most important and fulfilling part of this time when I've had to be more patient than I feel like I ever have been in my life. And during that patience, I've grown stronger, particularly both spiritually and mentally.
It also probably sounds more about me because, well, that's why I'm here----I don't know what she's thinking to write it here, and on the other hand I'm flooded with thoughts and a desire for advice with people here who have experience similar situations. It's all new to me.
With that said, I only talk about my feelings about it here, for now. When I'm at home with my W, frankly you'd never know I had these thoughts or that there was any issue. We have gotten closer this last month, in particular. I didn't even think that was possible because we were already so close and had already adjusted our lives to be closer in other ways, but here we are. Just being honest about going to a counseler, she was thrilled yesterday. Thrilled. I picked her up milk and olives on the way home, replaced the air filters, said nice things. We're talking more deeply lately, just about things other than sex, albeit all of that is a result of me bringing up the sex part a few weeks ago.
I don't want to toot my own horn or sound like a hero, but I have been more focused on her and less focused on sex, even though it might not sound like it here because, well, this is where I come, the only place I come to talk about and seek advice on that issue. The things I've learned from here and Michele's books have made me a better husband. It's really that simple. They are lessons I'll also never be able to forget. It's really empowering stuff.
Let's put it this way----not having sex put a strain on our marriage, albeit that may have been one-sided even if it is ok to feel hurt by being rejected for sex for so long. As a result of that strain, I found experts like Michele, and nobody has helped more than Michele. Today, our marriage is stronger than ever. We're closer than ever. We're so much better at talking and listening. It's very exciting, liberating, even theraputic. And yes, I want sex. But now I think the sex part will just be more of a side effect of a deep love; it will happen, and we're both hopeful for that rather than focused on it.
It's funny to think that not having sex has opened both of our eyes to our ability to connect more closely on a spiritual level despite not feeling like we weren't connecting that way beforehand. I dunno. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. That's still where I'm at, just being patient, forgetting about the sex part, not bringing it up, not focusing on it, and looking forward to seeing what happens next.
Let me just say that even though you're not "talking about it" I'll bet you are projecting it silently, unconsciously, BIG TIME.
That's not because you're a bad guy. It sounds to me like you're trying to do everything you can to make this right, because you know it's a deal breaker for you, and you love your wife.
However, if you have an "agenda", which you do, and that is your right...don't be surprised if that agenda spills over into everything, even though you try to keep on the down low.
I say this because DBing is like that.
We LBS have to work really hard to leave our agendas behind so our WAS don't feel pressured. We are hurting, feeling rejected, a lot like you are. But trust me--they can FEEL IT. She knows you. It's coming across loud and clear on some level. Don't doubt it.
It's not enough to just "not talk about the R", there is a whole lot more that goes along with that.
That's why I say: Release your agenda. Really let it go. Really focus on HER NEEDS, BUT WITHOUT EXPECTATIONS It's DBing all the way.
No, it's not easy to do. I struggle with it every day.
But the first part is to stop talking and thinking about you and how you feel and what you want, and think about what she wants and needs, and how you can give that to her.
The next time you catch yourself thinking: "If I did X, would she ML with me?" "Will we ever ML like we used to?"
Stop and think: "I'm thinking of MYSELF now and what I want. What I really need to ask is :What does my wife need from me right now?"
It's a start.
----GG
-----And..... I'm out of ammo...........
Me 54 Him 63 M 23 T 29 0 Kids Funny Farm of Rescues 12/12 OW-- 5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied 9/13 Proof OW: ENDED 2/14 Got D papers on my BD I kicked him out for my sanity 9/14 He wants to "talk"?
What an amazing post! For a "newbie", you sure get it. I couldn't have said it better.
Grey, just to drive that point, it's most often the HOW and not the WHAT. The hidden agenda can be perceived as, "If Grey gets what he wants, then it means I don't get what I want. And with him, there is no middle ground."
What Goat Girl is really telling you to do is drop the rope. Once you do that in earnest, the focus isn't on the tension between you and often it can be the impetus for turning things around.
I can tell you from hard experience, that my XH told me that my body and facial expressions told him exactly what I was about, and he instinctively knew that I would seize on any opportunity to press my agenda that I could - so he just avoided me and any manner of talking to me he could. In fact, he would go out of his way to say really awful things just to ensure that I'd leave him alone.
Good luck- Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Underdog: "I can tell you from hard experience, that my XH told me that my body and facial expressions told him exactly what I was about, and he instinctively knew that I would seize on any opportunity to press my agenda that I could - so he just avoided me and any manner of talking to me he could. In fact, he would go out of his way to say really awful things just to ensure that I'd leave him alone."
This ^^^^ exactly. What my H said to me, and exactly what he did to shut me up about what "I" wanted.
I do NOT hide it well, not when I'm hurt or it's important. Probably you don't either. Because it is really important to you. And your wife knows this from previous discussions.
She knows things are different between you in the ML department, she probably doesn't need to be reminded of how bad that feels.
I think the more we care, the harder it is to hide this from our spouse.
That's why detaching (from them, from our own agenda) is so important.
Those "unhappy vibes" get communicated to our spouse, whether we like it or not.
---GG
Me 54 Him 63 M 23 T 29 0 Kids Funny Farm of Rescues 12/12 OW-- 5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied 9/13 Proof OW: ENDED 2/14 Got D papers on my BD I kicked him out for my sanity 9/14 He wants to "talk"?
What an amazing post! For a "newbie", you sure get it. I couldn't have said it better.
Grey, just to drive that point, it's most often the HOW and not the WHAT. The hidden agenda can be perceived as, "If Grey gets what he wants, then it means I don't get what I want. And with him, there is no middle ground."
What Goat Girl is really telling you to do is drop the rope. Once you do that in earnest, the focus isn't on the tension between you and often it can be the impetus for turning things around.
I can tell you from hard experience, that my XH told me that my body and facial expressions told him exactly what I was about, and he instinctively knew that I would seize on any opportunity to press my agenda that I could - so he just avoided me and any manner of talking to me he could. In fact, he would go out of his way to say really awful things just to ensure that I'd leave him alone.
Good luck- Betsey
I guess what I'm trying to say is I have "dropped the rope." The focus isn't on the tension between us----I guess that's the bottom line, isn't it?
For example, I have a reminder on my phone, twice a day, to remind me not to bring it up, to let it go, to be positive and hopeful because what I need to do for now has already been done. I guess I don't know how to prove (and I think my W would agree) the tension has all but vanished. Yes, it was there (and maybe isn't 100% gone), and yes, it took time before it even started to go away, but thanks to the changes in my actions, we've both changed the way we feel about it.
You mentioned body and facial expressions, but I've deliberately held them back to where now they don't happen. I was frustrated before and would show it, but without "blowing up." Now, I don't. I have been doing more of the "staring" thing with her, smiling more, I mean it may sound stuck-up but I don't have nearly as much frustration about the situation which comes through naturally----I am sincerely happy and ok with just not worrying about it right now. At night it's the hardest, but I've honestly gotten good at not even thinking about it the rest of the time and truly focusing on her through the coaching from DB.
Last night, for example, when we were talking in bed, just out of the blue she mentioned how she'd like to have sex sometime in the middle of the afternoon, like when she came home from the pool Sunday. Totally out of the blue----I wasn't ready for that! It was NICE, not condescending, not like, "how come you always want it at night," just very adult, very calm, no tension. But I didn't know what to say, ha! I wasn't prepared for it to even come up, let alone for her to say she wanted it.
However, with that said, I think it's still a touchy time. I think we both just want to be careful not to let it turn into something else, like we (I?) did before. In any case, it was a nice little moment. A breakthrough? Maybe not. Progress? Definitely. Can I ask for more than that? Well, I guess so, but will I? Absolutely not.
With all of that said though, y'all are the best----Betsey, you in particular.
I've struggled, but I have also changed for the better OVERALL as a husband. I was a good husband before.
Nah, I was a great husband. I deliberately tried to be through action.
And now I'm even better. I'm not perfect, but I came here because I was facing an issue with sex and what I've learned goes SO far beyond sex that it is almost just as satisfying.
Just writing down my emotions here helps, emotions I've tried to keep from my W at times and, now, emotions that have actually changed into ones that I don't need to keep from anyone, including my W. It's kinda profound.
It's not over yet, for sure, but I just felt like saying "thank you" to DB and anyone here who has helped talk and give their point of view and tell their story.
