Sex was great, then we married?

[Starsky309]

Understand that as TIME goes by your desire will
also change.

This is VERY true, and should really be factored into your decision-making, Grey. On a scale from 1-to-10, with "10" being "Totally Frustrating and Unacceptable!" I would say that 15 years ago, this issue was a "9.5" for me. 10 years ago it was still about a "7".

Now? Probably a "2" or a "3," honestly. With the other challenges and joys in our lives right now from health issues with elderly parents, the birth of grandchildren and everything in-between, the companionship, friendship, respect and loyalty from my wife is more important to me than the sex. She's a wonderful cook, a phenomenal mother to our four children, absolutely DEVOTED to her parents and the strongest woman I know. She's my best friend, and I can't think of anyone I'd rather go thru this stage of my life with, and I'm SO glad I stuck this marriage out thru both our SSM and her affair 7 years ago.

Food for thought.


Starsky

[MrBond]

Have you actually ever flat out just asked her how much sex she would be comfortable with? I know you want it to be "spontaneous" but that obviously ain't happening.

[Grey]

Wow! So many quotes and great responses. I have to tell you, this stuff sure helps more than I expected (again).

Going through menopause.
Cancer.

And maybe, just maybe---all this loving attention is a bit...too much?
I mean, it all sounds great, but in smaller doses.
It's almost as if you're trying TOO hard to please, which ends up coming off needy.

I hear you. I think I need to mention that a lot of that attention is in response to her telling me about her needs, just like Michele's book says. She needed more time with her. In December, I was so busy---I felt like I was having a breakthrough, both artisticly and with sales. Come to find out, she felt alone, like I wasn't with her enough through the holidays. It's a tricky thing, marriage. Anyway, I got rid of the studio and spend more time deliberately with her. I listened. And it's good for both of us.

More to the point, if I hadn't done that, then what?

If I don't clean, and she doesn't like to be as clean as I do anyway, I don't think she sees it as needy. Maybe I'm wrong. I think she likes it more than it makes me seem desperate, though.

And I admit I probably go a little overboard on holidays. Maybe? I dunno. Lobster, for what it's worth, is really easy to cook. And it was on sale. Flowers, well, I'm an artist, a painter, and I LIKE having flowers around too----if nothing else, having a wife to buy flowers for is a perfect excuse to have them. Betsey, this one's for you; Albert Einstein said something like, "the study of the quantitative entities of numbers is rightfully given a place of relative unimportance in a world full of flowers and beautiful women." It's hard not to see the genius there.

I don't mean to sound like I don't hear what you're saying about being a nice guy though, but I think it would be a problem if I didn't have friends, hobbies, success, other interests, etc. Yeah, I took time out of painting Saturday to clean, but then I finished the entire painting Sunday, alone while she went to the pool---I think we spend a healthy amount of time both alone and together, in particular because we've worked at it (the way the book says to, coincidentally).

And another thing, I am also aware I can't complain. Yes, I want my wife to desire me, to ML with me, but I know (especially from Michele's books) I can't be mean in response. I can't take it outright personally. I have to be more patient than persistent. So if I stop doing the dishes ever again, or stop spending time with her, or stop rubbing her feet (the cancer wrecked her feet, believe it or not, she takes medicine daily just for foot pain), now I'm becoming part of the problem----now I'd be the guy I could understand any W not wanting to ML with, right?


I think there's something there though. Maybe I'm too nice? I dunno. I'm not sure which activity to back off on. It's not like she doesn't do dishes ever or help out with the dogs, etc. I'll have to think about the pro's and con's of dropping some specific "nice" behaviors deliberately. I also don't know if I can just get her a card for Mother's Day and not cooking, cleaning, buying flowers, etc. will give me a better chance of connecting physically with her instead, know what I mean?

it does seem like the whole "Mr. Nice Guy" thing can be a big attraction-killer, if a man doesn't consciously work on building other attributes to offset it.

I know what you mean. I also have an edge though. I dunno. Maybe I've lost it in her eyes or something? I mean, I was an independent artist with long hair when we met. I cut my hair to look better for when I proposed because we filmed it. But the "building other attributes to offset it" part stands out. I think I do that. I dunno? I mean, I still have my own hobbies, my own friends (lots of them), I've gotten better at art sales (more 'alpha'), and, well, I don't write poetry or paint for her really much at all anymore----it's sappy, which is ok, but she never really loved that anyway after the first painting.

You said the two of you were intimate about 5 nights ago, and that it was fantastic.

Yeah. This one is tricky. It wasn't intercourse, it was an "old fashioned." I'm not complaining, but let's look at it from Michele's approach;
Michele says she'd be filthy rich if she had a dollar any time a client said they weren't into it until the act started and then they realized/remembered how much the like sex. Some people are built that way.
However in this case, it was purely one-sided. She didn't want me to touch her, and she had no pleasure of her own (in the sense that Michele presents in the "Just Do It" model). I'm not trying to sound ungrateful, and after all, she did it on her own and from a place of love, but I'm not sure now if it did more harm than good, like she may have put pressure on herself, does that make sense?

But when I began perimenopause, something definitely changed in my sex drive.

It makes sense. The tricky part is she went through all of it several years ago. She had sexual relationships since, including with me. She's post-menopause, no hot flashes, and she had a strong sexual appetite plenty since, just not in the last 8 weeks or so with me. Just judging from the amount of lingere she bought after menopause has that wouldn't have fit before it, it just doesn't seem like her interest in sex dipped more than most women, maybe even a lot less.

She must be freaked out.
I'd be thinking "If he finds out x-y-z he's going to dump me for sure because sex is so important to him!"

And what does this do?

It makes her AVOID it like the plague... can't talk about it, can't feel comfortable with it...

If it didn't all happen so quickly, and if I didn't know about the ex's who got to basically fulfil incredible fantasies with my W, maybe it wouldn't sting so bad. It's hard to say, but I think it would still hurt under any circumstances just because our own sex life was magic only a year ago. Then, poof.

I don't want it to be "like bunnies." I hear 2-3 times a week is what the happiest couples do, Michele says the average is 1.5 per week, but the truth is I'd be happy with once a week, or even just an attempt once a week. There are other ways to be sexual without intercourse, too. But once a season, with no changes in terms of abuse or neglegence, and with seemingly no effort on the part of the W except to try to make me forget about it, I dunno, that doesn't sound like a marriage that's failing only because of being sex-starved, does it?

Still, I have an appointment with a counselor Tuesday 6/17. It feels like forever away. She has an appointment with her doctor on the 20th, not sure what it's about. I don't really know what to do with myself for the next 8 days. I know I have to be the same guy, pretty much, rather than ever get upset about it. But tonight, when I go to lay next to her in bed, I know it's going to hurt no matter how good the rest of the night goes.

[Grey]

Have you actually ever flat out just asked her how much sex she would be comfortable with? I know you want it to be "spontaneous" but that obviously ain't happening.

You know, I don't think so. But I'm also thinking that, for now, just that question would be a deal-breaker. It would shut her down for the intent of the conversation, for now anyway.

But it's a fantastic question. I don't want it to be spontaneous, that's not a need really at all for me. In fact, even if it's relatively boring, no longer denying the act alone would be huge for my self-worth and our connectiveness.

I'm also afraid of the answer. I think she would be "comfortable" with zero sex and, therefore, I should be to. She doesn't know why, but the "why" is incidental when the number is zero.

Michele says 1.5 times a week is the average, 2-3 times a week for the "happiest" couples. Once a week would suit me just fine. Promise. I'm not sex-crazy, I just feel like I am without having it at all now.




Another caveat, without going into too much detail I was always a fanatic about safe sex. I always had condoms at my house for when anyone needed them, be they friends or anything. I never thought protection was too much for anyone to ask. I dunno, too many friends with AIDS maybe.
Fast forward to two months after meeting my W and we ML without protection because she's post-menopause and can't get pregnant. It's...amazing. So not only does this beautiful woman not want to ML with me anymore, but it's also the best physical sensation I've ever had; it makes it easy to not want to ML with any other woman ever...if only I could just ML with my W, know what I mean?

[MrBond]

"But I'm also thinking that, for now, just that question would be a deal-breaker. It would shut her down for the intent of the conversation, for now anyway. "

Why? I mean if she's open about it, you should try. Plus it puts the power back in her hands where she can choose what SHE wants and it doesn't sound like it's based on what YOU want.

[GoatGal]

Grey,

What I keep hearing is about what you want.
You want more sex. That's understandable.
But there are some of us on here who have not had sex in YEARS and want sex.
Take me, for example!

Eight weeks for a woman my age is NOTHING if there is "something going on". And it definitely sounds like there is something going on that she is not ready to talk about, or maybe doesn't know herself. But you won't romance it out of her if that's the case.

You said "her feet are a wreck". What else is going on? Buying lingerie, having "a great sex drive" and "all that was years ago" not withstanding...

As women age, things continue to happen that affect us.

Having her menopause years ago doesn't mean it's over.
It means it's ONGOING.
It's not the death knell for your sex life; it shouldn't be. But it is an adjustment.
And if I were in her shoes, I'd definitely be feeling pressured.

But that's just me.

I wish she could open up to you. Maybe she could if she felt there would be no pressure to "fix" it for you.


BTW: I am not trying to minimize your feelings because you have every right to be concerned. Sex is an important part of a R. But not THE most important part. Not by a long shot.

Maybe try and calm down a bit and do some detective work.
You might find out something useful.

Meanwhile, I feel like every post is ending up with, "Yeah, BUT...how can I get more sex?"

Not to bust your cojones, just how it's coming off to me.

And that's just me. But take it or leave it.

[Starsky309]

It's not just you.

[Grey]

Well, I'm not going to wait 8 years for sex, if that's the idea! It's not so much the sex itself as the attempt to fix it. I believe it's possible for her and for us more than I think even she would want to wait 8 years, but the point for me, more than anything else, is there has to be some effort. You have to try. If there's a problem in a marriage, you have to at least try to fix it. She's trying, which helps me be patient.

I feel like I sorta have to quantify everything here, so I'll try to answer some of the concerns.

Yes, I talk about it here a lot. But this is pretty much the only place I talk about it. My W and I talked about it once when I presented how I was feeling, I admit it wasn't the best conversation and I didn't walk away soon enough, but we've spoken about it briefly maybe twice since. However, coming here to talk about it helps. It does. I don't talk here the way I talk to my W. I know better than to talk to any of our friends about it, for example, per Michele's book and, well, I guess common sense.


When I'm with my W though, I don't bring it up. I have been doing great with talking more, listening, and just forgetting the ML part for a while. It helps to have a new goal to focus on, such as my counselor appointment in a week, then her doctors in a few weeks, etc.

I've also learned more about how not to speak, how not to argue, thanks to Michele; things like not exaggerating, finishing the conversation before it lasts too long, or walking away and taking a time out when it starts to heat up. We don't have a lot of those arguments, but if there was anything I was clearly doing wrong every time, it's not handling arguments the best possible way.

For now, believe it or not, I'm patient at home. Last night we sat in bed naked and just talked. It helped me not be so nervously upset when the lights went out. She was glad I've got an appointment with a counselor, plus I met with a new art agent and the prospect is exciting. We even planned dinner for tonight, all of it without bringing up or pressuring sex.

[Starsky309]

Well, I'm not going to wait 8 years for sex, if that's the idea!

No, that wasn't my point . . . at all.


Starsky

[GoatGal]

"Well, I'm not going to wait 8 years for sex, if that's the idea!"

I don't think anyone would advocate that, unless that's something you both agreed upon.

"My W and I talked about it once when I presented how I was feeling, I admit it wasn't the best conversation and I didn't walk away soon enough, but we've spoken about it briefly maybe twice since."
Please elaborate.

Here is a hint. Maybe that first convo got her feeling a little threatened? Sounds like this is a SORE TOPIC, for whatever reason. Maybe you can look at reasons why that might be?


"When I'm with my W though, I don't bring it up. I have been doing great with talking more, listening, and just forgetting the ML part for a while."

This part is great! How long is "a while"?


"Last night we sat in bed naked and just talked. It helped me not be so nervously upset when the lights went out. "

This part, not as good. Because it still seems your focus is on sex, NOT on her.
Almost as if you're acting like you don't care, (good first step) but deep down, that's REALLY what you're concerned about, yourself and your needs.
(If you hadn't said "naked" it wouldn't have popped out to me.)
When the lights go out, what do you think is "supposed" to happen?

See if you can really get your mind and heart on HER and HER NEEDS. Put yours on the back burner for now. You might see a difference.

Now, you're on a forum called "Divorce Busting".
I hope you're not considering divorcing your wife after 8 dry weeks. (?) I get the strong sense that this might be on the table, as if she/you/somebody needs to fix this, or you're outta there.

Can you say "Pressure"???

Pressure makes ML everything it's not supposed to be.
Neither men, nor women, are at their best when there is pressure to "perform" as required.

Think about that and get back...

Caveat: I am a newbie and I would definitely take what the vets say over my two cents. I only feel comfortable posting here because I have personal experience in this area.

---GG