Sex was great, then we married?

[Starsky309]

Hi Grey,

Sorry to hear your troubles and that you find yourself here.

On the other hand, it's nice to know that mature women are appreciated as sexual beings, because often men our own age don't see us that way!

I'm just going to throw a few things out there that jumped out at me:

Going through menopause.
Cancer.

And maybe, just maybe---all this loving attention is a bit...too much?

I mean, it all sounds great, but in smaller doses.
It's almost as if you're trying TOO hard to please, which ends up coming off needy.

Which makes us feel we have to reciprocate---and who can measure up to the standard you have set? (Did you say "Bacon-wrapped Lobster tails, a clean house AND flowers? It's the Holy Grail.)

So I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong, just that you sound really...enthusiastic!
Which is a good thing.

But remember, she is older, she's been through a lot. You've got that youthful exuberance, and she is probably a bit jaded.
I don't know what her past was like... but surely that's playing into this.

I'd say... chill out! Enjoy her, your time together, and try and figure out how much or little expression of your love is the "right" amount through trial and error.

And then give her a little breathing room to do some nice things for YOU.

(Then again, I'm a newbie.. but I think for me this might be a bit smothering. You sound like a great guy, though!)

This ^^^^.


Starsky

[Starsky309]

(Did you say "Bacon-wrapped Lobster tails, a clean house AND flowers? It's the Holy Grail.)

So I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong, just that you sound really...enthusiastic!
Which is a good thing.

It has been my experience -- and my observation -- that if one were to draw a Venn Diagram, with one circle being "Husbands Who Give Foot Rubs and Clean the House and Do All the Cooking," and the other being "Husbands Who Report Having Great, Frequent Sex" . . . well, there just isn't much of an overlap. Not saying there's not ANY, and not saying that's even FAIR (I curse the SSM gods frequently on this very same subject), but it does seem like the whole "Mr. Nice Guy" thing can be a big attraction-killer, if a man doesn't consciously work on building other attributes to offset it.

Just sayin'.


Starsky

[Grey]

"then when it got to the point where I was so hurt that I said something about it, then it became a sex-only issue. I'm afraid she thinks I'm trying to use her V as a bargaining chip or something, like she owes it to me. "

But the point is that to you it has become a "sex-only" issue. That's how you've been framing your problem. I mean it's your title of this post. Most women don't deal with the sex issue very well. Especially if they feel like the spouse is pressuring them to do something they don't want to . Most, not all.

So that's the rub, isn't it?

I mean, after how many weeks without sex (especially after reading how "happy" couples have sex at least weekly), even without pressuring my W for sex, is it ok to go before saying something about how hurt and unwanted I feel? 2 months? 3? How long should a marriage be sex-starved before it's ok to even want to do something about it?

I made an appointment for me with a counselor just now at a nearby counseling office for next Tuesday. I can't wait. It feels like forever, and it has nothing to do with my W. It also means more than another week not just without the closeness of sex, but knowing that's what it will be.

Listen, and maybe this is selfish, but I'll be completely honest, my W not wanting to ML with me for a month absolutely vaporized my self worth. I'm not suicidal or anything, I just can't believe how much that can hurt. I didn't pressure her, but she sure as hell didn't approach me since, well, I don't know when. Maybe our wedding night this past October. It's electrifying to me when she does that.

I think if we could fix the sex issue, for me, everything else wouldn't just fall into place, but it would be more perfect than ever. I don't put ultimatums on it (I've even read stuff like that here), I haven't said anything like, "it's sex with me or I'm gone to find a new partner." I've been patient (all while dealing internally with this pain of rejection) longer than it sounds like the vast majority of sex-starved partners have been able to do, all while being nice about it and not asking or begging for it.

You're right about the title of the post. And the title says it all, I think. We were having great sex. We got married, now it's gone, and she controls it, not to spite me but without even realizing it until I told her how hurt I was she no longer wanted to have sex with me.

So what do I do? How much is acceptable to say is too little sex before I'm just a bad person for wanting it so badly to be like it was when we first married, when we dated, or the way millions of "happy, healthy" couples are all over the country? If I want to have sex once a week with the woman I love so much, am I a bad person for not being able to wait 6 months to have sex again, let alone as "often" as once a week?

I guess the big question is what now? What do I do for the next week? Be the same nice guy and get no sleep at night while I try to pretend I don't feel crushed trying to sleep with this woman who treats me like a roommate more than a husband? I feel like I'm breaking----I apologize if I sound weak, but I feel weak, I feel so stupid, I feel like I can't tell if I'm allowed to want to ML with my W or not. I keep hearing 90-95% of the couples Michele deals with have experienced infidelity; it makes my situation feel so trivial and then I feel worse for it because I haven't cheated.

[Underdog]

Sorry for continuing to supply rain at the picnic, but I've always been the one to yell out that the emperor is naked.

That being said... you said it's about sex. I read that your W doesn't want to talk to you about what has changed, when you indicated that previously, you have had intimate marital discussions. To me, the devil's in *those* details.

Why????

[sandi2]

I mean, after how many weeks without sex (especially after reading how "happy" couples have sex at least weekly), even without pressuring my W for sex, is it ok to go before saying something about how hurt and unwanted I feel? 2 months? 3? How long should a marriage be sex-starved before it's ok to even want to do something about it?

You said the two of you were intimate about 5 nights ago, and that it was fantastic.

[GoatGal]

I'll add one more bit as a recently post-menopausal hot babe...

I can still stay out and party PAST two AM and leave lesser kids in the dirt on the competitive dance floor... I can outplay most of them!

But when I began perimenopause, something definitely changed in my sex drive.

Sorry for the TMI, but I used to have orgasms in my sleep, often.
Now? Fuggettaboutit!

Not that the drive is gone, just some of the--"juice". It's not exactly on my mind anymore like it was.

(It was at this point where I made some requirements for my husband to continue to enjoy my company in the bedroom, but if you read my thread you'll see where this was just too much "work" for him and he went elsewhere.)

IF your wife went through a rapid (surgical) menopause due to cancer, you can BET she is suffering because of it. That's so much harder to deal with than a gradual transition. It is a HUGE thing to undergo, both physically and emotionally.

In my case, I'm pretty open, but it was still really hard to share my struggles and feelings about menopause with my H at the time.
It was embarrassing.
I felt it would cause him to see me as even less desirable than he apparently did.
But I wanted to be truthful, and I trusted him.
(More to how this turned out on my own thread.)

But it wasn't easy to do. I didn't want him to KNOW that I was considering hormone replacement, why I needed a fan on me all night... it was kind of diminishing.

Now, understand that my H is almost ten years older than me, and it was STILL hard to go there with him. Yet I felt he needed to know. Not all women are like this. It's a "failing" and a loss of ourselves at our "best". It means, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that WE ARE GETTING OLD. We would like to pretend it's not happening!

Just imagine how your wife must feel about possibly having to have that same speech with her 35 year old Prince Charming Wonder Boy?


She must be freaked out.
I'd be thinking "If he finds out x-y-z he's going to dump me for sure because sex is so important to him!"

And what does this do?

It makes her AVOID it like the plague... can't talk about it, can't feel comfortable with it...

I know this doesn't help you address it in any useful way, but maybe you can understand it better.

And it's true. If she COULDN'T have sex the way you wanted anymore because she had physical issues... would you still love her enough to stay married to her if you could express your love for each other in ways other than sexually?

Is there a way you could make it work for the two of you?

--GG

BTW: I finally gave in and started hormone replacement, and found myself thinking about SEX again a bit like the old me.

Then again, maybe it's because I'm looking dating again if I get divorced, and I'm noticing the attentions of other men that I used to ignore while "fully married".
It's flattering. It's weird. And I wonder, do I have still have game? But I am starting to feel like a "real woman" again. That's a good thing.
So--It's there, but it can't be forced, pressured, and it's just not "like bunnies" anymore.

[Grey]

I read that your W doesn't want to talk to you about what has changed, when you indicated that previously, you have had intimate marital discussions. To me, the devil's in *those* details.

Why????

She talked to me yesterday to help me understand that nothing has changed; she doesn't feel any differently since turning 50, for example. She said she understood what I was asking, but she doesn't feel like anything has changed for her, be it emotionally, internally, or hormone-related. She said it all so calmly, so matter-of-factly, I can't presume anymore that something like hormones or depression are part of the equation.

So now I'm back at square one----it feels like everything's good, she just simply doesn't want to ML with me, only now it's once again my fault and my guilt and rejection rather than any possible outlying force we could both try to tackle together.

I don't know what to say to her. I HAVE to hide it, right? For how many months? For how many counselor sessions? What can I do to make myself not feel ANY rejection every night trying to sleep next to her in our bed, even just for the next 8 days?

I'm sorry. I must sound like a total crybaby. For what it's worth, most of the time I'm very alpha----I sold another bunch of paintings Friday, made a huge new business deal today at lunch, I'm successful and confident....I just can't deal with a sexless marriage very well at all.

What would you do, for example, every day until therapy? Every night? And what should I be prepared to bring to the counselor?

[Starsky309]

For what it's worth, most of the time I'm very alpha----I sold another bunch of paintings Friday, made a huge new business deal today at lunch, I'm successful and confident....I just can't deal with a sexless marriage very well at all.

I never did figure it out, Grey, which is probably why you should probably throw out all of *my* advice as the low test score here, and just accept my heartfelt empathy.

You have to decide how important this one aspect of your marriage is to you, and whether it's a dealbreaker or not. For me, I ultimately decided that it wasn't, I let it go, and I've never been happier. You sound like you may not be "there" yet, and THAT IS OK. You have a right to want what you want.


Starsky

[Cadet]

Grey I am with Starsky and have no real advice to offer having already lived through this too.

However I can tell you that YOU can not FIX this, and that it is most probable that neither can your wife.

And as much as it is said that it is not hormonal,
or their is no depression,
I can say that those are all factors,
that are in the equation.
Biology is at work but you can not stop it.
It has the power of Niagra Falls and it is
best to stay out of the way.

Understand that as TIME goes by your desire will
also change.

I offer my support as well.

[Underdog]

I'm sorry, Grey. I'm in Starsky's camp, offering empathy and just want to say you don't have to live in a sexless marriage.

But your post was kinda eerie:

She said she understood what I was asking, but she doesn't feel like anything has changed for her, be it emotionally, internally, or hormone-related. She said it all so calmly, so matter-of-factly, I can't presume anymore that something like hormones or depression are part of the equation.

Ok, so you *did* bring it up, and you were met with a stone wall. I'm also calling BS out on your W. But I say that with the out that Goat Girl and I both mentioned. She just doesn't see this as a problem. Ergo, it's your problem. And it is. She just doesn't seem to want to meet you halfway because you have choices too, and all choices have consequences - good and bad.

I can't take hormones because of the ovarian and breast cancer rampant in my family. And if your W can't remedy the situation, she just may feel as though it will be hopeless to please you. I honestly don't know. I know if I were in her shoes, I'd be asking you if we could meet in the middle half way. Either you would or wouldn't do that.

I don't think you're a crybaby. Insert any need for sex, and you've let her know - kindly - that's it a need for you, it's reasonable for you to ask AND expect. Furthermore, it's been a staple in your R with her and things have changed. You're entitled to have your needs met or to be negotiated how to meet each others' needs to the best of your ability. If your spouse is not willing to meet those needs, then what? (This is not meant to be a flippant question, and you don't have to answer it here.)

And maybe that's a question for your counselor? I've never had the true chance to negotiate for what I needed in a marriage, so I can't offer advice. My spouse walked and never looked back (or he made me believe that). So perhaps Starsky and Bond are better equipped to advise you here...

The only part I can offer is the perspective of a 52 year old female who truly does see the changes since the age of 45. And I'm not afraid to admit it. Do I like it? Nope. Do I accept it? Yes. Only because I don't have a choice. The only good part about this stage in life (well, the REALLY good part) is that pregnancy is no longer a worry for me. And that's a liberty that comes with happiness, albeit the flip side of knowing that one big part of my life is over. I've already got 2 kiddos and love them to death, but watching my fertility go down the drain is definitely kinda weird. I feel like an alien sometimes.

Take what (if anything) is useful from that. And good luck!

Betsey