Cross country DB with WAS

[Anders]

However, the following is the second moment I wish I could go back and change.
I arrived to find her very cold and withdrawn. It seemed like the progress we had made was all gone.

A few weeks later, when I was back here closing up a few things, I discovered she was in contact with the guy she had an EA with years ago. I was furious.

I emailed her that what she was doing was unacceptable and that she was deceitful. I said a few things about her

In hindsight, I handled that completely wrong and even worse, by email.

After a couple of days, I called back to apologize for my approach. She was upset, asked me not to return and suggested we separate to figure things out.

This is when I discovered the DR book and began the 'real' DB process. 9 months ago. I say 'real' because in retrospect, I was jumping from solution to solution only focused on getting us back together. The separation made me realize how close we were to D.

Wrapping on trust, and why I think she does not trust me. For most of last year (2013), she was very angry at me. I had to make some financial decisions for us. My dilemma was that she would not give me the time of day. But finding out I had made some of these, she would get very upset that I had done so without discussing it with her. That I obviously didn't care for her opinion. This is also the context of the scenarios in my initial question that you responded to Underdog.

[Anders]

You've read a lot of good books, and I was a bit surprised to see that you've been on this journey for 2 years. That's a long time, friend. In those 2 years, has anything changed? Apparently, your communicating patterns haven't. And I'd probably like to start there.

That is a very good point you raise Underdog. I was focused on the wrong outcome for most of the past two years. My only thought and goal was for us to get back together. That was my all consuming thought.

When I discovered the DR book and began the 'real' DB process 9 months ago, I realized how many mistakes I had been making. And despite the progress I was and still making on myself and my fixings, I was still largely blaming her for all of this. And honestly, a part of me still is.

My communication approach is definitely a major fixing that is still a work in progress for me. Validation and truly listening to her is something I rarely did during our spiral. This really hit home during our last big fight.

It is a pattern that I also realized I share with her dad. She often mentioned how frustrating it was to have a conversation with him as much as she loved him. It always seemed to become a debate that she could never win. She felt insignificant after these.

I was always either fixing, correcting her or defending myself. I always had to 'win' the fights. Or more accurately, I didn't want to be wrong.

It took me ten years to put the two together.

This becomes a major challenge for us with the long distance and our current impasse.

How do you bridge a physical and emotional gap that wide?

I don't know yet.

My goal, on the communication front, is to enable a safe space for us to talk. Whether or not this leads to a new relationship together for us is very uncertain but this remains one of my goals on this DB journey. Any advice on this is most welcome.

[Anders]

In those 2 years, has anything changed?

-I am a lot more assertive and decisive. W noticed these changes (with a few back slides) and commented about them.

-Standing up for myself. W noticed this. She would often warm up to me after these moments after an initial negative reaction. A 180 which takes a lot of conscious effort for me. For ten years, it was mainly me trying to please and placate at the expense of my own self esteem.

-Patience and self control: The irony is that most around me would say I am the most patient person they know. I know I need to work on this. There have been moments, especially around EA discoveries, where I was very emotionally reactive. We had been making positive progress during our separation leading up to Feb of this year. I jumped the gun on a some positive signals from her, completely forgetting the DB advice in my excitement. Then discovered the recent EA. I feel I should have had more patience and self control in how I handled it.

-Communicating: Another irony as my career success has been based on my reputation for communicating effectively. What I am realizing is that I need to really listen more to her. I knew of the concept but did not truly get it. Validating, as a part of that, is very new to me but one which I am practising at work.

-On M progress: We had been making some slow progress and then during one of my last visits in Feb, she was overly warm. Back to calling me by my pet name which she hadn't in over a year, holding my hand, cuddling, talking a bit about the future, introducing me to new friends as her husband, etc Our last blow up definitely set us back miles.

-Being a better man: Stronger in all aspects of my life, more certain about life and my purpose, reconnected with God in a much more intimate way. W mentioned this during the D talk. She said she has seen who I have become. However, she said she just doesn't know if we are meant to be together especially as we have only been with each other.

[Anders]

Also, after 2 years with seemingly little progress reconciling, is that truly still your goal? Do you think if you fixed some of your systemic issues (at least on your side), your W would be open to working on things?

And since I DB'd my ass off for 2 years before my D happened, I can only speak for myself, but at the end of that journey, I really didn't even want him back anymore. So if you say that, I promise I will understand, and so would most people here.

So it's disclosure time. Tell us more about the history part, because I have a feeling the devil is in *those* details.

Betsey

Some really tough questions there Betsey but I do have an answer for you on one. And I do have a follow up question on your history. I will continue tomorrow after some shut eye.

[Underdog]

DB,

Sorry if you think I jumped ship - I didn't. I just wasn't online at all this weekend. It's probably a good thing...

Anyway, thanks for filling in some stuff. I really don't know where to start because so much of what you wrote is making my neurons fire left and right.

I first want to say to you as reassurance that this is not all your fault. Do you realize this? I really am encouraged for you to read about what you've learned, absorbed and committed to making yourself better. Keep doing that! No matter how this chapter ends, it will serve you well going forward.

One of the big things I got from your updates is that you are both conflict avoiders. You're not the only one who engages in passive aggressive tactics. Out of curiosity, have you read anything on that topic? I was married to someone who has these tendencies, and it is a damn difficult dynamic to deal with. I have one called "Living with the Passive Aggressive Man" by Scott Wetzler. But here's a link to an article about the nature of passive agressiveness: Psychology behind passive aggressiveness.

Without droning on with my own armchair psychobabble, you might find some nuggets of wisdom by reading it. My XH simply was not allowed to voice any (and I mean ALL) negative emotions within his family of origin. His father is Norwegian and mother was German, and although he was loved, he was not allowed to express anything but agreement with whatever was happening or any decision made by them for him. It made him affable and fun to be with, but the danger lurking under the surface was something that took years from his own happiness by his own design. And it killed intimacy between us, because the more P/A he became, the more angry I became.

I also realized a little while into my marriage that there was one condition that they could discuss "unpleasant" or "conflicting" thoughts: under the influence of alcohol. I was very confused by this one myself - it made me afraid of being with him while he was drinking. I wasn't afraid physically, but it was when he was drinking that he would discuss heavy emotional stuff with me and then not remember too much of it when he was dead sober. It made communicating pretty difficult.

Back to you. So... from the start, I can see conversations that should have been solution oriented and fairly simple that became the wedges of resentment between you two. Whatever was bothering her came out in her nagging you. And in turn, her nagging and unwillingness to sit down with you and budget started a ball rolling that was left to roll down a hill quickly.

And let me say this: I honestly believe that you can both overcome this stuff to create something different, better and healthy down the road. I think the initial 3 observations came out in your posts, and if you can build a way to communicate safely and effectively, you might be able to restore the trust that was lost along the way. The big question is if this is what she wants? And is she committed enough to do the same with you?

Interesting thing we share: a counselor who took our sides and left the other one unwilling to open up as a result. However, I can also see in my own case that my XH was as unwilling to bring up the stuff that was bothering him as much as he didn't want to change himself: he wanted ME to do all the changing to suit HIM. Ultimately, it took me years to realize this and it was the foundation I had to forgive myself for expressing my unhappiness to the point where he moved out.

So... that's just personal observation and not necessarily a projection on you, okay?

I'm interested to see your thoughts on the article and if anything resonates with you.

Please bear with me, as I've got a crazy week at work and home.

Betsey

[Anders]

Thanks for the encouraging words Betsey. Some really good points here. I was busy GALing at a wedding on Sat. with a great bunch of people. My ego was stroked a few times being one of the 'unaccompanied' guests.

DB,

I first want to say to you as reassurance that this is not all your fault. Do you realize this? I really am encouraged for you to read about what you've learned, absorbed and committed to making yourself better. Keep doing that! No matter how this chapter ends, it will serve you well going forward.

Thanks Betsey for the words of encouragement. It took me a long time to come to terms with this. I went from blaming her to blaming myself to accepting how much we both didn't know. I don't believe we set out to deliberately mistreat each other. I have really taken to heart that the essence of this DB journey is for me to grow into a much stronger and wiser person.

One of the big things I got from your updates is that you are both conflict avoiders. You're not the only one who engages in passive aggressive tactics. Out of curiosity, have you read anything on that topic? I was married to someone who has these tendencies, and it is a damn difficult dynamic to deal with. I have one called "Living with the Passive Aggressive Man" by Scott Wetzler. But here's a link to an article about the nature of passive agressiveness: Psychology behind passive aggressiveness.

Thanks for the article. I will read this and get back to you on my thoughts. Something I have been addressing in IC since reading 'No More Mr. Nice Guy'.

It made him affable and fun to be with, but the danger lurking under the surface was something that took years from his own happiness by his own design. And it killed intimacy between us, because the more P/A he became, the more angry I became.

Ouch-this reminds me very much of our situation. Do you think if he had made progress on this things would have worked out?

Back to you. So... from the start, I can see conversations that should have been solution oriented and fairly simple that became the wedges of resentment between you two.

This is something that kept coming back to me. They were relatively simple issues. In hindsight, so easily resolved.

And let me say this: I honestly believe that you can both overcome this stuff to create something different, better and healthy down the road.

I do believe this and the main reason I am sticking with this journey. Our R and hopefully our marriage, can become much stronger going through this. At the very least, I don't want to carry these bricks into my future.

The big question is if this is what she wants? And is she committed enough to do the same with you?

This is a very good question Betsey. One I struggle with. Knowing her, I think she is inclined to think it is easier to move on. And I think a large part of that is that she may not want to be emotionally vulnerable/open with me again.

Since our separation in Sept. she has been consistent in saying she was feeling very confused, uncertain how to go forward, had no energy to work on our M(yes-heavy word we both kept using-work), needing space and time. This changed when I said I wanted a D this past March in a heated argument and then back tracked. She now says she is sure she is done... even though she still feels conflicted at times (her words).

However, I can also see in my own case that my XH was as unwilling to bring up the stuff that was bothering him as much as he didn't want to change himself: he wanted ME to do all the changing to suit HIM.

Betsey, why do you think he didn't want to change? Did he then or has he since expressed any remorse/regret about his part in your M's end?

This is one of my biggest fears if W and I are to move forward. I do think it would be helpful for her to work with a good coach/IC. Even her BFF recommended she try it. However, she is very wary of counseling in general, especially so since our last MC sessions where she felt we ganged up on her. I could see us 'reconciling', things rolling along smoothly for a few months or even years, then it all falling apart again due to the same issues.

I have been collecting insights from other posters about things that helped with piecing and moving forward to creating sustainable approaches for great marriages. This is my optimistic side preparing for that possibility.

So... that's just personal observation and not necessarily a projection on you, okay?

Got it and do find this very helpful.

I'm interested to see your thoughts on the article and if anything resonates with you.

Please bear with me, as I've got a crazy week at work and home.

Thanks Betsey for the valuable insights and no rush. Time is my friend right now.

[Anders]

Betsey, finishing up my homework:

Also, after 2 years with seemingly little progress reconciling, is that truly still your goal?

No. It would be a great outcome but not my ultimate goal.

I went through a large part of last year with reconciliation as the only goal in mind. I was remorseful for my being a WAS and the lead up to it. I wanted us to move past all of this and just get back to moving forward together in life.

For a long time, I put my wife in the center of it all. I put her on a pedestal. Then I resented the fact that she didn't put me on pedestal as well. I made my life about her. To the point that I became so afraid of loosing her, that did everything I thought I should do not to loose her.

Since our separation, the recurring lesson and ultimate goal is how I can continue this journey of becoming a better and stronger person. Not simply to save my marriage but to have and sustain great relationships with God, myself, my wife and my family. A key part of this is to reaffirm what my purpose in life is.

Do you think if you fixed some of your systemic issues (at least on your side), your W would be open to working on things?

This is a very good question Betsey. I honestly don't know. Since the D argument two months ago, we have only spoken twice. Not enough time to get a good read on where she is.

Right now, I think she is inclined to think it is easier to move on and bury all of this in her past. And I think a large part of that is that she may not want to be emotionally vulnerable/open with me again.

Since our separation in Sept. she has been consistent in saying she was feeling very confused, uncertain how to go forward, had no energy to work on our M (yes-heavy word we both kept using: work), needing space and time. This changed when I said I wanted a D this past March in a heated argument and then back tracked. She now says she is sure she is done... even though she still feels conflicted at times (her words).

For now, I have a time frame that I am committing to. Knowing how decisions and feelings can change on both sides, the time frame is to keep me from giving up out of fear but also not to stay out of fear. The goal is to make that eventual decision to stay or to go from a place of love.

[Anders]

And since I DB'd my ass off for 2 years before my D happened, I can only speak for myself, but at the end of that journey, I really didn't even want him back anymore. So if you say that, I promise I will understand, and so would most people here.

I really appreciate the support Betsey. At least for now, the DB journey continues.

There are moments when it feels so easy to just stop. I was at a wedding this weekend. Great time all around. Nice to receive attention from a very attractive girl despite my not pursuing her (or most likely because I was not pursuing her). Friends noticed and were encouraging me. I didn't.

Then I received a text from W asking if I was free to talk that night. First communication in two weeks. I felt a bit curious about what she wants to talk about and was quickly able to switch gears back to simply enjoying the wedding.

We are to talk later this week.

The very next day, a group of us were talking. A female friend heard about my new career move and some of my uncertainties. She said she believed in me.

The only thought in my head at that moment was that I cannot remember the last time W said that to me. And in those moments, it is tough not to feel both lonely and angry. And to ask why I am still here.

I have some questions for you on your story Betsey. I will follow up on these after I read through your threads.

[Underdog]

DB,

I'm glad you enjoyed yourself at the wedding and took the positive comments to heart. I know how much of a boost that can be when you're generally uncomfortable with pretty much everything.

I doubt you'll find many of my threads now, because I started here in 2003 and they try to clean up the database every now and again. I was gone for a really long time, but when I entered the dating pool again last year, I found my baggage from this journey left me unsure how to feel and act. So I came back, recognized a few folks, and started asking for support again down in Surviving (which I think is a crappy name for a forum, BTW).

I'm happy to answer questions, so just ask.

Ouch-this reminds me very much of our situation. Do you think if he had made progress on this things would have worked out?

Well, I was the one who worked on it with him because it bugged the crap out of me and left me holding the bag when he committed to doing things with our girls, who were 8 and 5 when he moved out (they are now 20 and 17). I read a whole lot on the subject, and frankly, the prognosis was pretty grim on turning things around. But I made a good attempt anyway, and for a couple reasons, my XH has responded very well.

In a nutshell, I gave him permission up front to say no when I asked him things. It was such a new thing at first that he truly enjoyed telling me no just to try it on to see how it felt. I promised myself that I wouldn't berate him, express disappointment or get angry with him if he opted to choose NO. (All bets were off if our oldest had something to say, though.) When he said no, I would reply, "Ok, thanks for being honest." And I let it go. It wasn't horribly long before he realized that the things I was asking him to do (most of the time swapping time with me to have the girls) wound up alienating him from the 2 people he adored most in this world. He started saying YES, and he discovered that our R became a whole lot more cooperative and supportive.

So, no. It did not change his mind, though I know now that he always had second thoughts and was just really reluctant to believe that things could be better. When he got proof that it could, he was reluctant to believe that *he* could commit to changing his side. So that's that. And yes, he's expressed remorse and regret. I'm probably one of the few folks here who heard those magic words, and again recently. It took him a very long time (even with friends coaching him) for him to truly understand that the biggest repercussion of his choices came from the physical distance between us, and that our oldest's friends and pursuits were on my side of town. That geographical distance made it really difficult on our D20 (she's a competitive volleyball player and in general just a very active person with good friends in my 'hood), and that ultimately she chose her own life. Which pretty much leaves him with the short end of the stick where spending time with her is concerned. He really gets it now. Unfortunately, that barn door was open 10 years ago and the animals have long gone.

And frankly, it makes ME sad knowing that he feels this way. I do what I can to try to arrange time for them to spend. Our D20 goes to college in NY, so neither of us sees her too much anymore, and she does make an effort to see him. It's just sad.

This is one of my biggest fears if W and I are to move forward. I do think it would be helpful for her to work with a good coach/IC. Even her BFF recommended she try it. However, she is very wary of counseling in general, especially so since our last MC sessions where she felt we ganged up on her. I could see us 'reconciling', things rolling along smoothly for a few months or even years, then it all falling apart again due to the same issues.

DB, it all falls back to the simplistic thought of "If it's worth the effort, she'll do it". And I know full well what happens when the party feels ganged up on, because it tends to come across as "Here's what's wrong with you, if only you'd fix that..." Everyone has their "aha" moment at their own pace. It would be ideal if you could do it simultaneously. But you can't force the horse to drink at the trough, ya know.

For a long time, I put my wife in the center of it all. I put her on a pedestal. Then I resented the fact that she didn't put me on pedestal as well. I made my life about her. To the point that I became so afraid of loosing her, that did everything I thought I should do not to loose her.

Pedestals are awful things. I was on one too. They put someone above you, you refuse to see the flaws and accept them, and there is only one way off: down. And you can't put Humpty back together again once that happens, because the flaws and cracks look awful compared to the perfection you were so intent on seeing. We're all flawed.

Now, question time. Are you devoting enough time to making YOU a fulfilled and generally happy person? Because when you focus on that, you generally don't put people on pedestals and keep them as peers. Tell me more about your efforts to keep the focus on you.

Then I received a text from W asking if I was free to talk that night. First communication in two weeks. I felt a bit curious about what she wants to talk about and was quickly able to switch gears back to simply enjoying the wedding.

We are to talk later this week.

Excellent! Now you have a good opportunity to ask questions, do a lot of listening, offer empathy and support and leave her with a very positive feeling when she hangs up. If she baits you, choose not to take it. One of the tactics you can use is to flip it and ask her a question or at the least, get it to a point where you can validate her. (Go back and re-read Wonka's list.) If she gets agitated and starts to tell you what was wrong with you (don't you just hate that? ;)), hear her out and say something like, "Now I can see how that must have bothered you."

Make your whole goal to steer the conversation into uncharted territory where you leave her wanting to talk to you more frequently or more deeply.

LOL, I always tell people if my XH lived in his car, we'd still be married. He has a rather crappy commute from work to my side of town to pick up the girls on his nights. His job is really stressful, he works too much, has too much responsibility, and most of the time, he didn't make time to think about anything else. He definitely didn't let our separation affect him at work, but Mother Nature works in funny ways. He'd get in the car and his mind would veer towards stuff that was bothering him or he'd agree to talk to me about something that was bothering me. We'd have 40 minutes of uninterrupted time, and I used it to the fullest advantage I could. Our talks were sometimes light and easy. But then again, we could bare our souls. He couldn't drink his feelings away, and since he focused on driving (yes, we use our bluetooth devices LOL) and less on the emotional response. It was awesome.

I kept this secret to myself, as I know that he'd turn off his phone if he suspected I have super powers LOL. I use it today as well. We usually don't have the kind of talks about "us" now, but equally difficult conversations about our kids.

My point: See if you can recognize patterns where you can have better communications. If your W doesn't like to talk at certain times and you know you're not going to see her in a cooperative fashion, why set yourself up to fail? Try to figure some of this stuff out so that she can see for herself how things have improved.

I will tell you that it took me exactly SIX months for my XH to realize that we had made *significant* progress talking to each other. When I knew he saw, we were having a conversation that in earlier times guaranteed a fight, he made a comment about it, and said something about not knowing if I'd pick a fight with him. THAT was when I asked him, "Okay, do you remember the last time we fought? About anything?" He got really quiet and said, "No. Actually, I don't." And I chose to be smart and just left it the hell alone so he could go off and contemplate. Because that's what my XH does, being the good little engineer he is. The next day, he called me from the car and said, "I appreciate everything you are doing, and from here on out, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt." And he's kept his word.

And now to my last commentary before I sign off and get to work:

The only thought in my head at that moment was that I cannot remember the last time W said that to me. And in those moments, it is tough not to feel both lonely and angry. And to ask why I am still here.

Just remember that she doesn't believe in herself right now. In order to love others in the manner they deserve, we have to love ourselves first. Her confusion is undoubtedly the by-product of the choices she's made, and the path that you are both on. I do understand why you are angry, but don't spend too much time there... otherwise, you will derail your progress. Journal it - whether here or privately - and just let those thoughts come and go.

I had an amazing coach here named Laurie. I really wish that more people here would do what she recommended to me long ago: to keep a solutions journal. I used it faithfully to experiment and monitor results. I could see in black and white what worked and what didn't. I did more of what worked and less of what didn't. It truly helped me change how I behaved or reacted, and helped me keep my focus where it belonged: on making ME a happier person.

I invited my XH over to dinner for Father's Day on Sunday. He agreed. I'll make something good (he and I both are good cooks), and I'm planning on telling a story so that he knows he's appreciated by me as a good dad. I know from your perspective that it might seem as though we are meant to be together, but we aren't. He's in a steady, committed R with someone else, and we are just really good friends. We were friends for quite awhile before we dated, and I'm just glad we can co-parent together as friends who care. After all, we have a life long parenting R ahead of us with our daughter. So it's all good. I promise.

You're doing fine, DB. Keep looking forward. No matter how this story plays out, you're going to be a better happier you in the long run. And *that* is the ultimate gift of this process, if you do it right. From where I sit, you are.

Now I'll let you come back with comments and observations about that article on P/A people.

Betsey

[Anders]

Update: This is rolling out very slowly, almost like ultra slow motion. Compared to some of the more active threads, I feel like I am the golf channel.

She arranged a time for us to chat this week then postponed the day we were to talk. We have rescheduled.