Sex was great, then we married?

[25yearsmlc]

I'll have to ponder this some more.

I have a neighbor who was a LBW. (Left Behind Wife).

She was stunned that her h left her. (The kids had just finished college and the youngest had moved out so I assume the h had been planning on this for a long time.)

See, the thing is, she told me that they'd had sex a few times a year, for MANY YEARS. I think she forgot she had told me.

Since I knew that, I did blurt out to her, "well, no offense b/c I know you're deeply hurt. But friend, what were you thinking, when you said 'no' all those years?"

To which she said "Not this!"

I assume she thinks she should have said "yes" more often but right now she's too mad at her h for not warning her I suppose. But I specifically recall her complaining about HIM "pressuring" her, so this topic is not new to my ears. OTOH, she's genuinely surprised by this. I mean, she's not lying...

I guess if she'd known he was lonely enough to want to seek out the affection of OW, she'd have done things differently.

(to be fair, I don't KNOW that he's got an OW. He may well not have one, b/c he's the type of guy who would file first and THEN Seek it out. But my h and I both saw this coming, which kind of makes it sadder).

[Underdog]

Grey,

Well, maybe for your W, she's at the confluence of turning 50 and all that pondering that comes with it? Some folks don't do it at 50 but maybe 55 or 60? Since your W has already gone through menopause, I can't speak as to how things look at the end of the tunnel. Have you read thoroughly on this subject? I'm not there yet.

And for the record,I've tried everything without putting myself at extreme risk for cancer (family jewels passed along). So I wait it out. It's not totally miserable, but uncomfortable enough.

Now that you've clarified it and 25 hit on some stuff, here's where I'm going. Btw, please don't discount the other men here. They certainly have the male POV for you. Here goes.

Putting myself in your W's shoes, I would be really unhappy if my guy approached me with what you're thinking of wanting to do. Primarily because it comes across as "here's what I think is wrong with you so you need to fix it." Actually, I think this applies to pretty much everything in general.

So your W is not comfortable talking to you about this stuff. Why? Seriously. Put some effort and think of any time in the past where you might have said something that led your W to believe this subject is not safe with you. I'd start there. There's something there. Maybe how you express your opinions? Maybe you're an authority on the subject? I don't know so I'm throwing it out there.

And you're right in that the more you press her to cross the line to your side, the more resistance you're going to get. Does she feel safe being able to have her needs met? What I mean by that is that she can trust you to back off and commit to being more understanding? At least for now, until you can find out what has changed for her?

Look, it's no surprise that men and women use sex to gain control. If you think there is any chance that her withholding is due to this dynamic, someone has to give in until you can manage the resentment. Is that an issue over the past year?

My XH knew full well that it was the one thing I needed from him. And he was so resentful that he cut it off. Right before he moved out, he told me "I can't screw someone I hate, no matter how much I love sex." Ouch!!!! Please don't let things get this bad before you dig deep and acknowledge the elephant in the living room, if there is one.

And when you DO talk about this with her, use feelings statements to lead your questioning. "Sweetie, I know that you haven't said anything specific, but things have changed. I'm hurt that you haven't felt safe discussing this with me, and I'm also hurt that you've turned down making love with me without letting me know why. Can you tell me what you're feeling or if there is something I'm doing that bothers you so we can fix this? Our marriage is really important to me, and communicating will help me get there."

I read something yesterday where the therapist recommended using an object as he marker for who was speaking. Until it was passed, only that person could have the floor. It keeps one listening and engaged and prevents us from preparing rebuttals instead of listening. So focus on understanding before you seek to be understood.

I highly recommend you backing off some until you can find out why. It may be as simple as her having vaginal dryness and pain during sex and not feeling like she can say it out loud, especially if you're pressing your case and it's packaged in such a fashion that she sees it as "It's all about Grey, all of the time." I really don't think it's true, BTW, but remember perception is reality to her.

So please share what you can so that we can guide you better.

Betsey

[Underdog]

25, I have friends who were in the same dynamic... And oddly enough, she is 11 years older than her now second XH. One night, we were drinking wine and she got loopy enough to tell me that she only "gave in" once or twice a year. I flat out told her that it was a recipe for divorce unless her H was ok with it. He was not. Incidentally, she told me that after the change, she faked having desire and a libido until she couldn't do it anymore and shut the system down altogether. I did my darnedest to try to convince her to talk to a doctor about it, especially if her marriage was important to her. I guess it wasn't. She's doing really well now, and her XH is getting remarried to his college sweetie this fall.

Who knows why people make the choices they do. I certainly wouldn't. But then again, I'm divorced and I didn't get he chance to work on things with my XH. Ironically something he says periodically to me and my daughter was the most colossal mistake of his life. Go figure.

Carry on...

[Grey]

Grey,

Well, maybe for your W, she's at the confluence of turning 50 and all that pondering that comes with it? Some folks don't do it at 50 but maybe 55 or 60? Since your W has already gone through menopause, I can't speak as to how things look at the end of the tunnel. Have you read thoroughly on this subject? I'm not there yet.

Putting myself in your W's shoes, I would be really unhappy if my guy approached me with what you're thinking of wanting to do. Primarily because it comes across as "here's what I think is wrong with you so you need to fix it." Actually, I think this applies to pretty much everything in general.

So your W is not comfortable talking to you about this stuff. Why? Seriously. Put some effort and think of any time in the past where you might have said something that led your W to believe this subject is not safe with you. I'd start there. There's something there. Maybe how you express your opinions? Maybe you're an authority on the subject? I don't know so I'm throwing it out there.

And you're right in that the more you press her to cross the line to your side, the more resistance you're going to get. Does she feel safe being able to have her needs met? What I mean by that is that she can trust you to back off and commit to being more understanding? At least for now, until you can find out what has changed for her?

Look, it's no surprise that men and women use sex to gain control. If you think there is any chance that her withholding is due to this dynamic, someone has to give in until you can manage the resentment. Is that an issue over the past year?

My XH knew full well that it was the one thing I needed from him. And he was so resentful that he cut it off. Right before he moved out, he told me "I can't screw someone I hate, no matter how much I love sex." Ouch!!!! Please don't let things get this bad before you dig deep and acknowledge the elephant in the living room, if there is one.

And when you DO talk about this with her, use feelings statements to lead your questioning. "Sweetie, I know that you haven't said anything specific, but things have changed. I'm hurt that you haven't felt safe discussing this with me, and I'm also hurt that you've turned down making love with me without letting me know why. Can you tell me what you're feeling or if there is something I'm doing that bothers you so we can fix this? Our marriage is really important to me, and communicating will help me get there."

I read something yesterday where the therapist recommended using an object as he marker for who was speaking. Until it was passed, only that person could have the floor. It keeps one listening and engaged and prevents us from preparing rebuttals instead of listening. So focus on understanding before you seek to be understood.

I highly recommend you backing off some until you can find out why. It may be as simple as her having vaginal dryness and pain during sex and not feeling like she can say it out loud, especially if you're pressing your case and it's packaged in such a fashion that she sees it as "It's all about Grey, all of the time." I really don't think it's true, BTW, but remember perception is reality to her.

So please share what you can so that we can guide you better.

Betsey

Thank you again, Betsey. I can't believe how much just online back-and-forth is helping me.

And you're right; the one time I brought it up about how I'm feeling, I don't think I did it the right way.

It started the right way and I said the right things following Michele's TEDx speech, but I think it caught my W off guard, I spoke for too long, broke down, and yeah, that didn't help. I wasn't prepared enough for that conversation and I learned that the hard way.
I don't think it's the outlying catalyst, but I know it didn't help. I apologized the next day, promised not to bring it up before we can see a counselor or either of us can see a therapist. It's been relentlessly difficult; at times I've had to leave the room just to avoid bringing it up or showing any kind of hurt.

I think that, yes, she does feel safe being able to have her needs met. Simply put, I've gotten better at being deliberately compassionate and pushing my physical wants/needs to the background for now just in the past week that I've been here on DB.com This site and the research information online from so many experts and people in similar situations has been irreplacable.

It's been hard, extremely hard, to adjust and just "wait it out" and be unconditionally patient, and yet I feel like I've reached a place of acceptance where it hasn't just gotten easier to be patient, but it's strengthened our bond, even without me ever saying any of it out loud with her.

Neither one of us know yet what has changed with her, so the bottom line is I still have to remain comprehensively patient. She's going to her doctor soon but hasn't made an appointment yet----I'm not going to say part of me doesn't want to ask her to make that call, but I also am aware this week has been hell for her at work, plus with the puppies being fixed, at least I have good reasons to fall back on for being patient.

For the record, I don't think she's witholding sex for control over the relationship. Not at all, in fact.

"Sweetie, I know that you haven't said anything specific, but things have changed. I'm hurt that you haven't felt safe discussing this with me, and I'm also hurt that you've turned down making love with me without letting me know why. Can you tell me what you're feeling or if there is something I'm doing that bothers you so we can fix this? Our marriage is really important to me, and communicating will help me get there."

This. This is brilliant. Thank you Betsey.


I may have to say exactly that at some point. For now though, I'm going to keep quiet until she takes the next step and sees a doctor or schedules an appointment with a therapist.

I am afraid she may have something like clinical depression, if not a major hormone imbalance. She's so sweet it's hard to tell, but also I know she's not truly herself lately, and she absolutely knows it too but doesn't know what exactly is going on. Neither of us do, but both of us are aware, despite most of the time everything seems perfectly fine and we're certainly in love and loving to each other. I don't mean to sound detrimental, but I am not sure all the steps I've heard about getting back to a happy, health sex life are the best path if my W is struggling with a mental illness. I can't say for sure that's what it is, but at the same time I don't think even a simple, would-be-effective conversation is a good idea until we know more about what's going on with her.

And I guess that's the hardest part. It could be a mental health issue, and I'm willing to be patient until we know more, but on the other hand, what if it's not? In that case, maybe I'm just thinking about it too much and the bottom line is right now I just plain need to be 100% patient.


And last night, we were intimate. It was fantastic. We had a great family dinner, watched her TV show while I kissed her hands, nothing too out of the ordinary for us but it was nice. We kissed a little more than we have been lately, but slowly, softly, almost completely non-sexual if that makes any sense. She held me close when I kissed her shoulders. God, it felt great. No pressure. It felt intimate----not that we didn't have that before, but we hadn't since I mentioned it in the first place. It lasted over an hour. Then she told me to lay on my back. We didn't ML, but she initiated an "old fashioned." It wasn't forced, I don't think there's any resentment there at all, and while it wasn't completely about the sexual experience, I'm not going to lie and say it didn't help.

But the intimacy part, wow. Again, we have always been good about that---no "zombie sex," no forcing anything. But just the idea that she didn't push me away was monumental, and then completely following through despite me not asking or expecting or even feeling like I needed it, well, to say it made us feel closer would be an understatement. We're not where we need to be, but all that will make being patient so much easier now. I'm sure it must sound at least a little selfish, but trust me when I say it didn't feel that way. I'm aware it wasn't what's going to put us on the right path completely, but I don't take it for granted either.

[Grey]

I'll have to ponder this some more.

I have a neighbor who was a LBW. (Left Behind Wife).

She was stunned that her h left her. (The kids had just finished college and the youngest had moved out so I assume the h had been planning on this for a long time.)

See, the thing is, she told me that they'd had sex a few times a year, for MANY YEARS. I think she forgot she had told me.

Since I knew that, I did blurt out to her, "well, no offense b/c I know you're deeply hurt. But friend, what were you thinking, when you said 'no' all those years?"

To which she said "Not this!"

I assume she thinks she should have said "yes" more often but right now she's too mad at her h for not warning her I suppose. But I specifically recall her complaining about HIM "pressuring" her, so this topic is not new to my ears. OTOH, she's genuinely surprised by this. I mean, she's not lying...

I guess if she'd known he was lonely enough to want to seek out the affection of OW, she'd have done things differently.

(to be fair, I don't KNOW that he's got an OW. He may well not have one, b/c he's the type of guy who would file first and THEN Seek it out. But my h and I both saw this coming, which kind of makes it sadder).

Wow.

I hope it doesn't ever come to anything like this with my M. I don't think it will though, particularly because of the information here and learning that things have to be discussed before they turn into insurmountable issues.

That's why I'm glad to be here. It really does help people like me recognize that you can't be passive. I am lucky, I think. I've read so many storied (like with your neighbor) where people found the help they needed so late into their broken relationship. I found this place early on, without ever coming to a point of hate or anger with my W, if not simply being frustrated and upset.

And for me, I don't think it will come to what your neighbor had to deal with. We're not even close to that yet, and I don't think she's holding back to spite me or anything like that; I think it's more internal and medical, but likely a combination of both. I could be wrong, but at least in the meantime I'm not making it worse. Thanks for sharing. These stories, it's amazing how much they help with clarity.

[labug]

Is there abuse in your W's history.

I think there's hormonal stuff at play but the first question that came to my mind was "Where's her abuser?"

(I just quickly skimmed the previous posts so you may have addressed this)

[Grey]

Is there abuse in your W's history.

I think there's hormonal stuff at play but the first question that came to my mind was "Where's her abuser?"

(I just quickly skimmed the previous posts so you may have addressed this)

Well, I have never heard of any physical abuse whatsoever.

However, abuse comes in many forms. I know she dated jerks before, but from as much as I know, they were just selfish, absent. The one she was into the most was just not reliable, lived out of the country, I'm not sure about abusive though.

[Underdog]

Grey,

I don't mean to sound detrimental, but I am not sure all the steps I've heard about getting back to a happy, health sex life are the best path if my W is struggling with a mental illness. I can't say for sure that's what it is, but at the same time I don't think even a simple, would-be-effective conversation is a good idea until we know more about what's going on with her.

Uh, this kind of whacked me for a moment. I didn't even consider this one. And you're right in that it's highly unlikely any of this will work under that umbrella.

And you and 25 both said what I was thinking: Unless *she* feels there is a problem, she doesn't think there *is* a problem. And that in itself is telling.

I'm still thinking that there is more to this than you've told us or think or have shared. Sometimes it's not what is being said but in the manner it's being said. Trust me, we're having issues in my family of origin on this one, and it's my younger sister who has terrible bedside manner when talking about really important stuff. So she loses her message because her approach is the complete opposite of empathetic. She comes across as a judgmental nurse ratchet. Oddly enough, I agree with her, but she just won't put herself in the other person's shoes and contemplate how she'd want to hear the message she was delivering. So instead of having any conversation, there's a big wall and no turning back. You can't unsay words that have been said unkindly.

That's why I ask you to do a mental review and see if at anytime you presented this type of front to her when talking about a highly personal and emotional topic.

You might find Wonka's Validation Cheat Sheet thread helpful as well.

We're not where we need to be, but all that will make being patient so much easier now. I'm sure it must sound at least a little selfish, but trust me when I say it didn't feel that way. I'm aware it wasn't what's going to put us on the right path completely, but I don't take it for granted either.

Awesome. You've got that working for you, Grey. Keep your eye on the forest... not the tree in front of you.

Betsey

[Grey]

Uh, this kind of whacked me for a moment. I didn't even consider this one. And you're right in that it's highly unlikely any of this will work under that umbrella.

And you and 25 both said what I was thinking: Unless *she* feels there is a problem, she doesn't think there *is* a problem. And that in itself is telling.

I'm still thinking that there is more to this than you've told us or think or have shared. Sometimes it's not what is being said but in the manner it's being said. Trust me, we're having issues in my family of origin on this one, and it's my younger sister who has terrible bedside manner when talking about really important stuff. So she loses her message because her approach is the complete opposite of empathetic. She comes across as a judgmental nurse ratchet. Oddly enough, I agree with her, but she just won't put herself in the other person's shoes and contemplate how she'd want to hear the message she was delivering. So instead of having any conversation, there's a big wall and no turning back. You can't unsay words that have been said unkindly.

That's why I ask you to do a mental review and see if at anytime you presented this type of front to her when talking about a highly personal and emotional topic.

You might find Wonka's Validation Cheat Sheet thread helpful as well.

We're not where we need to be, but all that will make being patient so much easier now. I'm sure it must sound at least a little selfish, but trust me when I say it didn't feel that way. I'm aware it wasn't what's going to put us on the right path completely, but I don't take it for granted either.

Awesome. You've got that working for you, Grey. Keep your eye on the forest... not the tree in front of you.

Betsey

I hear you. And yes, I'll admit, just to be totally clear, when I first brought it up I didn't do it the right way, at least not by the time we were done talking about it. I didn't make an ultimatum, but I got upset, broke down, and by the end I had made it about me, I can definitely see that now. I've apologized for it, but I'm aware that can take time to heal regardless.

Before that though, nothing like that happened. I don't mean to sound perfect, I dunno, I'm afraid that's what it sounds like, but we've done a good job of being honest (I beleive honesty is more than just telling the truth) and the sex disappeared without some other argument or outlying event on my behalf.

In fact, the more I've read stories here and thought about our own situation, I'm more convinced the lack of sex is perhaps as unrelated to anything either one of us did as possible. I am not certain, nor am I an expert in situations like this, but I truly believe there's something else going on, something physiological.

I'm sure to some that might sound like an excuse, but for me it's the reason to simply be patient for now. Something is up. I know it, and she knows it, and that's half the battle. But I don't think she'd be as loving with me, and me as caring and affectionate in spite of the lack of sex if it was simply my W trying to control the R by taking sex away.

Frankly, the idea that there is likely an underlying mental health or physical health issue (or both) makes it way easier to not bring up how much I miss ML.

Come to think of it, I actually want to ML less----I'm more aware that this isn't a deliberate action on her part, and, as a result, it's a lot easier to handle not having sex because it's not her rejecting me outright on purpose. Right now, I think it's like she loved pizza and one day she just wasn't hungry for it, like savory pizza became unsalted potatoes---she's not motivated to eat it even though she knows she should want to.

Again, I could be wrong, but only time will really tell. And right now, time is what she needs from me more than anything else. So I'm just not bringing it up. I truly believe she feels she can come talk to me, and I will let her if she wants to while I don't bring it up myself, for now. Not talking about it with her is one thing, but it sure does help to talk about it "out loud" here.

[25yearsmlc]

Grey,

you sound like a good man. I wish good things for you - and I think your approach is about as good as it can be, given the givens.

Keep us posted.