Sex was great, then we married?

[MrBond]

First off, don't put words in my mouth.

Second... I wasn't "suggesting" that her libido changed when she went from 49 and a half to 50 years. What I am SAYING is that maybe SHE changed. I actually have seen women whose libidos change quickly. That's just how life is. I am saying that you (and you said it yourself) put alot of emphasis on sex and M is more than that. Again, what if she couldn't have sex any more? Would you leave her? Based on your track record, you will.

Third... I wasn't "suggesting" that sex isn't important in the M. I believe I mentioned that it is. But you don't get that I'm saying that for your M it can't be JUST about sex.

And let's face it ... she's 50 years old and her body is going to change much quicker than yours. She's going to hit 60 when you're in your 40s. What then?

[25yearsmlc]

I think it's a good discussion.

Also, I have mixed feelings about a lot of this. Re your wife's age and the whole menopause/peri-menopause, we DO have options.

I had always had a high sex drive but noticed a sharp, rather sudden decline about the time I turned 50. I was not in menopause but I still noticed a PLUNGE in libido.

We were still intimate but h noticed my decrease in interest and I could tell it bothered him and frankly, it puzzled and troubled ME. So i went to see my doctor and got an off label prescription and it DOES help.

Same goes for the other physical aspects/changes we go thru. We don't have to just "endure" this, and I have gotten a lot of my former libido back.

The thing is, I wanted to get it back....so I sought out help for it. Physical medical help.

The 3 most likely possibilities for "why" your w is not as interested as she was only a year ago, are these:

1) she made the effort when you were dating, but didn't necessarily feel it, and so she now doesn't want to "try/fake" so much,

AND OR

2) You are doing something that turns her off;

AND OR


3) she has physically changed...(though she'll have to want to get help for it, and asking her doctor seems like a small thing to ask of her, there IS help for this!)

Frankly, I hope it's the second reason b/c YOU are in charge of that option and only that option.

Do keep posting. And good luck, hang in there.

[Grey]

First off, don't put words in my mouth.

Second... I wasn't "suggesting" that her libido changed when she went from 49 and a half to 50 years. What I am SAYING is that maybe SHE changed. I actually have seen women whose libidos change quickly. That's just how life is. I am saying that you (and you said it yourself) put alot of emphasis on sex and M is more than that. Again, what if she couldn't have sex any more? Would you leave her? Based on your track record, you will.

Third... I wasn't "suggesting" that sex isn't important in the M. I believe I mentioned that it is. But you don't get that I'm saying that for your M it can't be JUST about sex.

And let's face it ... she's 50 years old and her body is going to change much quicker than yours. She's going to hit 60 when you're in your 40s. What then?

You don't know her, that's all.

She's bubbly. She lights up a room. Most people will never meet someone like her. I guess you'd have to see her to believe it.

It's not JUST about sex, but you're saying I wouldn't love her if she couldn't have sex. She needs me to mow the lawn, but if I couldn't I'm sure she would still love me.

But she can have sex. And it is that important. I think the problem is how she shuts down when it comes to talking----she uses "pressued" as a bail-out word instead of making a hard conversation. For example, if she can't have sex, or if her libido disappeared overnight, then the real problem is she won't talk to me about it, right?

[Grey]

I think it's a good discussion.

Also, I have mixed feelings about a lot of this. Re your wife's age and the whole menopause/peri-menopause, we DO have options.

I had always had a high sex drive but noticed a sharp, rather sudden decline about the time I turned 50. I was not in menopause but I still noticed a PLUNGE in libido.

We were still intimate but h noticed my decrease in interest and I could tell it bothered him and frankly, it puzzled and troubled ME. So i went to see my doctor and got an off label prescription and it DOES help.

Same goes for the other physical aspects/changes we go thru. We don't have to just "endure" this, and I have gotten a lot of my former libido back.

The thing is, I wanted to get it back....so I sought out help for it. Physical medical help.

The 3 most likely possibilities for "why" your w is not as interested as she was only a year ago, are these:

1) she made the effort when you were dating, but didn't necessarily feel it, and so she now doesn't want to "try/fake" so much,

AND OR

2) You are doing something that turns her off;

AND OR


3) she has physically changed...(though she'll have to want to get help for it, and asking her doctor seems like a small thing to ask of her, there IS help for this!)

Frankly, I hope it's the second reason b/c YOU are in charge of that option and only that option.

Do keep posting. And good luck, hang in there.

For what it's worth, and I'm not trying to make excuses here, but her menopause pretty much ended overnight with her cancer 5 years ago. She always had problems, never had a regular period (usually had 3-4 a year), etc. Also, she's not to tired to stay out until 4 AM sometimes with her friends, I can't get 30 minutes?

I guess you have to know her----she's so energetic, especially socially. So many people love her, and I know she does love me. She had other relationships after the cancer (which was years after she had menopause) and judging by the amount of lingere she owns that wouldn't have fit her before the cancer and I've not seen her wear for me, she was pretty sexually active. I know that might sound harsh, but I actually like it, I didn't want to marry a virgin and I like that she's not thin natually, I have always had a larger preference sexually.

I'm not saying her libido hasn't changed, quickly even, or that medication changes might help, but I think the outlying problem is she won't talk to me about any of that either. If I ask tonight, for example, she'll say she's being pressured and bail out of the conversation.

So 25yearsmlc, here's a question----she's going to her regular doctor next week, but should I ask her to bring up her libido with her doctor? That HAS to be hard, right? Or what if I'm wrong and it's not her libido at all and just asking the question "pressures" her all over again?

Regardless, going from twice a week to once every six weeks seems like more than a plunge. I sincerely don't think I'm doing anything wrong EXCEPT that I brought it up twice how much I want to have sex because it hurts and I feel so rejected. For example, she loves to be kissed, hugged, stuff like that, all the time. It's ONLY the sex that vanished. I can't pretend I don't feel like a selfish a-hole that not having just the sex part does hurt me very much.

Last night we absolutely cackled when she told me secretly (didn't want her visiting friend to hear) about how she had dropped the salt shaker on a sticky mouse trap and was swearing trying to get them separated, and now the salt shaker is sticky. We ate dinner, cuddled, kissed, held hands, watched her favorite show, I gave her a foot massage, everything was perfectly fine, NORMAL even----we don't fight often at all.

I don't mean to make it sound like I'm perfect, but just for the sake of the argument, let's assume I'm not doing something terribly wrong to flat-out turn her off----the question still remains how do I get her to talk about what's going on. Yes, I'm hurt, more than I even really want her to know because it would make her feel worse, but I don't know how to make an effort, like reading this site, or talking to me about what exactly is going on.

I put our engagement video online, it's titled "a painting is revealed," I don't know if that will help, but you can see some of her personality and energy level at least. I just don't know how long to keep it in and hurt.

[MrBond]

"It's not JUST about sex, but you're saying I wouldn't love her if she couldn't have sex. She needs me to mow the lawn, but if I couldn't I'm sure she would still love me."

No. Again you're not listening. I said that M is more than just sex (again, I didn't say it wasn't important, just that it's more than just sex). And you said in your post that you've stayed in bad relationships that had great sex. Now you have the opposite.

She might not want to talk to you about it because she's uncomfortable about it. There's only so much you can do on your end. You can't keep trying to control her or force her to face something she's not ready to. Slowly build the trust between you and she may slowly open up.

[MrBond]

Oh and the thing about us not "knowing" your W, you don't either if you're posting here. All of our spouses weren't the same like when we first got M'd. She changed just as much as you had. You have to figure out how to interact with this "new" W of yours.

[Grey]

I kind of feel I owe it to all of you to post as a 52 year old perimenopausal woman (it's not officially menopause until you've not had a cycle for 12 full months). I'm halfway there.

I happen to be like your W... I've enjoyed sex all my life, and it's been important to me. But I have to tell you that going through this hormonal stuff is much harder coming out than it was going in at 11, though there are lots of similarities.


Grey, you won't understand this for a long while. You're young and you just can't know what it's like to hit the big red flag until you actually arrive there yourself.

I have to tell you, I've been a spry, energetic and mostly happy person all my life (with periodic life episodes that dog me, but I bounce back). When I turned 50, I was depressed, maudlin and terribly confused. It truly was like a light switch for me. All of a sudden I realized that I could be a member of AARP, and that there were things I desperately wanted to do differently for the rest of my life. I understood that there was more in my rear view mirror than my windshield. And it was horribly, horribly difficult for me... and beyond terrible for my friends and family. The older ones understood (especially my XH, who is a year older than I am), but nobody else did. Even my sister questioned me. UNTIL she turned 50 in March herself. And she's now going through a funk that her H and I support and understand.

I feel like an alien. I'm unsure. I know people think I'm attractive and fun, but I don't feel that way. My skin has changed. I can't seem to sleep off the dark circles under my eyes, and my fertility is halfway out the door (that's good for other purposes), but it has significantly affected me in ways I never dreamed possible. I have night sweats and wake up at 2 am and often don't return to restful sleep. It affects my ability to make good decisions, and lack of sleep has all sorts of other biological consequences.

If you would take this time to learn about it and work with her, it might do wonders in how you're perceived. Good luck-
Betsey

Betsey, wow.

Thank you. That's incredibly insightful, absolutely.

My W (look at me, I'm officially using abbreviations now) hasn't seemed to have had those problems, at least not just about turning 50?

And if she has, I don't know how to bring it up? She doesn't seem any less energetic or fun, body-conscious, depressed, etc. She doesn't have night sweats, and sleeps more, not less, etc.

We've talked about marriage counseling but she hasn't set that up (she wants to do it herself, plus her insurance covers counseling and mine doesn't).

She may have just turned 50, but for her whole life she only had about 3-4 periods a year, and that stopped about 6 years ago altogether when she had cancer. No periods since, for example. She's had relationships since.

So I don't think it's just from menopause or turning 50, but that's not to say it can't be something hormonal regardless.

In fact, I think that's probably the most-likely scenario. The tricky part is how do I get her to talk to me about it?

For example, she's going to her regular doctor next week. How can I (or even should I?) talk to her about asking her doctor about her libido or changes in sexual desire? This may sound crazy, but in all sincerity from what she's said I think she WANTS to want to have sex, she just doesn't know why she doesn't want to.
For the record, I've also tried what Michele says about some people needing physical arousal before becoming physically aroused; I don't mean to get too graphic, but about a month ago she was letting me touch her and she liked it, she wanted me to, she just couldn't get wet at all. I didn't force it, I didn't get mad, and we didn't have sex, but I can't imagine how much that bothered her (if at all, for that matter).

I think if she told me she would ask her doctor about her libido today I would be motivated to not feel hurt or rejected in the meantime, but I'm frankly not sure if I should ask or if it will distance her more.

Let me know what you think, and thanks again Betsey.

[Grey]

Oh and the thing about us not "knowing" your W, you don't either if you're posting here. All of our spouses weren't the same like when we first got M'd. She changed just as much as you had. You have to figure out how to interact with this "new" W of yours.

I only meant to suggest that 5 seconds with her and anyone would be convinced of a lot of things, such as her being outgoing, happy, free-spirited. I don't mean to insult anyone, not at all, I just mean to say she's more of a joy than I think could come across here. She's great. We stopped having sex and by now I think it's from something neither of us did and I came here looking for help, that's all.

[25yearsmlc]

2 suggestions (other than suggesting that you read Betsey's post again...

First, when my libido plunged (and your #s of 1-2 weekly to once ever month or 6 weeks, IS a plunge. That's what I am describing)

In any case, my h pointed out that I did not seem to have the same libido as before. He did it in a way that was observational. It did not feel like an attack.

I now see how it must have hurt his feelings. I'm glad he approached it the way he did (for the most part). But I sometimes think it would have been better and faster to just ask me what HE could do to help. I'd have put thought into that answer.

Anyhow, when I went to see my doctor, I mentioned it to her. I did not tell my h I would be discussing this with her, as I did not feel like telling him every single personal private (please, allow me some mystery) part of my medical situation.

She tested & treated me, and prescribed some medication that can be helpful to women with dropped libidos & it all helped.

I do not want to surrender to aging this way, just as I have colored my hair since the first gray's showed up in my 30s. If your w were willing to marry a 35 y/o, I assume she is not generally a surrenderer to age, either.

Do you know her doctor? Can you approach it from a "could this be a sign of a physical change" related to something that IS important to her? Like cancer?

I mean, if I'd had cancer --especially of my reproductive system, and ANY change in me, or behavior that CAN be hormone related, I'd look into... even if it's just for "selfish" health reasons.
I have another question for you.

IF your w 'agrees' to have more intimacy with you, and does not seem to "mind" it, is that enough for you?

I don't mean for her to just lay there, being a zombie waiting for it to be over.

I mean, if she participates and shares, then MUST she also "FEEL" what you want her to feel? Must she also climax?

Because I have often ml when I did not feel in the mood. I wasn't forced. It was a choice I made, and believed was a loving one.

In general, if my h has a need only I can fill, (b/c we are m and into monogamy)
then even if I do not have that need in that moment, I still want to meet his needs. I don't think it's wrong to ml even if the desire is not in me at that moment.

I've made dinner for h & not eaten myself, b/c I was not hungry. I've also sat at the table and just eaten a snack, in order to join him in a full meal.

Must I be as hungry as he is, for him to enjoy the dinner & feel loved?
Must I starve a day or so to feel what HE wants me to feel?
Must we both feel the same thing at the same moment, to be happy?

A dear friend of mine lost her only child some years ago. She mentioned that she soon went on anti-depressants after the death, but that a year later, one reason she quit the medication was b/c of the affect on her libido.

She had admitted that while she was grieving, she did not feel that she said "had to have an orgasm to enjoy ML, b/c {I} really crave the intimacy" I knew exactly what she meant.

The many reasons for sex include pro-creation, joyful celebrations, providing comfort in times of grief or stress, bonding, give/take, and of course for sexual satisfaction.

If your w agrees to ML more often, perhaps to initiate it more too, will that be enough for you?

My guess is that unless it's - 1) physically caused AND 2) that she gets treatment for it; AND 3) that it works,

you may have to settle for more sex, but not necessarily more sexual desire.

Which may also change again, in a month or year.

Just as you must consider the physical aspects of her age, she must consider the same, for yours.

Ask yourself if it's all ego that is speaking. (It's okay for ego to be PART of this; you're human after all). But if you insist on deciding how she feels/thinks, internally, then I think it's too much.

Why not Just ask for more intimacy b/c you want & NEED it and it's an essential ingredient for you. In other words,

It's a priority of yours. Not a tiny thing on a long list of wishful thinking.

You hope that given all the love you both feel, that it being a priority for you is enough of a reason for more sex. If you must adjust the timing of it to meet HER moods, adjust some.

Please, ***Don't keep score of anything in the m.***

Don't count how often she has fun with her friends and how she "makes time for them" or has "energy for THEM", but not you---

b/c that makes you sound petty & self pitying which is so unattractive.

Frankly, if it's all true, then there is something in YOUR approach that isn't quite right. If she's not "really" tired, then figure out what the friends provide that you do not.
You say She wanted sex much more, less than a year ago...if that is true, I'd ask her what is changed. And try hard to do it in an observational, curious way if possible.

Good luck.

[Grey]

2 suggestions (other than suggesting that you read Betsey's post again...

First, when my libido plunged (and your #s of 1-2 weekly to once ever month or 6 weeks, IS a plunge. That's what I am describing)

In any case, my h pointed out that I did not seem to have the same libido as before. He did it in a way that was observational. It did not feel like an attack.

I now see how it must have hurt his feelings. I'm glad he approached it the way he did (for the most part). But I sometimes think it would have been better and faster to just ask me what HE could do to help. I'd have put thought into that answer.

Anyhow, when I went to see my doctor, I mentioned it to her. I did not tell my h I would be discussing this with her, as I did not feel like telling him every single personal private (please, allow me some mystery) part of my medical situation.

She tested & treated me, and prescribed some medication that can be helpful to women with dropped libidos & it all helped.

I do not want to surrender to aging this way, just as I have colored my hair since the first gray's showed up in my 30s. If your w were willing to marry a 35 y/o, I assume she is not generally a surrenderer to age, either.

Do you know her doctor? Can you approach it from a "could this be a sign of a physical change" related to something that IS important to her? Like cancer?

I mean, if I'd had cancer --especially of my reproductive system, and ANY change in me, or behavior that CAN be hormone related, I'd look into... even if it's just for "selfish" health reasons.
I have another question for you.

IF your w 'agrees' to have more intimacy with you, and does not seem to "mind" it, is that enough for you?

I don't mean for her to just lay there, being a zombie waiting for it to be over.

I mean, if she participates and shares, then MUST she also "FEEL" what you want her to feel? Must she also climax?

Because I have often ml when I did not feel in the mood. I wasn't forced. It was a choice I made, and believed was a loving one.

In general, if my h has a need only I can fill, (b/c we are m and into monogamy)
then even if I do not have that need in that moment, I still want to meet his needs. I don't think it's wrong to ml even if the desire is not in me at that moment.

I've made dinner for h & not eaten myself, b/c I was not hungry. I've also sat at the table and just eaten a snack, in order to join him in a full meal.

Must I be as hungry as he is, for him to enjoy the dinner & feel loved?
Must I starve a day or so to feel what HE wants me to feel?
Must we both feel the same thing at the same moment, to be happy?

A dear friend of mine lost her only child some years ago. She mentioned that she soon went on anti-depressants after the death, but that a year later, one reason she quit the medication was b/c of the affect on her libido.

She had admitted that while she was grieving, she did not feel that she said "had to have an orgasm to enjoy ML, b/c {I} really crave the intimacy" I knew exactly what she meant.

The many reasons for sex include pro-creation, joyful celebrations, providing comfort in times of grief or stress, bonding, give/take, and of course for sexual satisfaction.

If your w agrees to ML more often, perhaps to initiate it more too, will that be enough for you?

My guess is that unless it's - 1) physically caused AND 2) that she gets treatment for it; AND 3) that it works,

you may have to settle for more sex, but not necessarily more sexual desire.

Which may also change again, in a month or year.

Just as you must consider the physical aspects of her age, she must consider the same, for yours.

Ask yourself if it's all ego that is speaking. (It's okay for ego to be PART of this; you're human after all). But if you insist on deciding how she feels/thinks, internally, then I think it's too much.

Why not Just ask for more intimacy b/c you want & NEED it and it's an essential ingredient for you. In other words,

It's a priority of yours. Not a tiny thing on a long list of wishful thinking.

You hope that given all the love you both feel, that it being a priority for you is enough of a reason for more sex. If you must adjust the timing of it to meet HER moods, adjust some.

Please, ***Don't keep score of anything in the m.***

Don't count how often she has fun with her friends and how she "makes time for them" or has "energy for THEM", but not you---

b/c that makes you sound petty & self pitying which is so unattractive.

Frankly, if it's all true, then there is something in YOUR approach that isn't quite right. If she's not "really" tired, then figure out what the friends provide that you do not.
You say She wanted sex much more, less than a year ago...if that is true, I'd ask her what is changed. And try hard to do it in an observational, curious way if possible.

Good luck.

Wow. Great response.

My W hasn't thought about any of this, I don't think.

For example, you mention, just as Michele suggests, that sometimes you ML simply because you know your H needs it every so often. My wife doesn't think that way----she sees it as intense pressure, despite it not necesarily coming from my end from things like yelling at her for it or even ever trying to force unwanted sex on her.

Truth is, we have plenty of intimacy, probably more than most couples we know judging by the way so many of them react to how they see us behave around each other. So tons of intimacy...just no sex.

We cuddle, hold hands, kiss, but no sex. Now I think it's partly to do with the fact that I was so hurt I said something about it as Michele suggested.

I also did ask what I can do to help. I'm afraid she doesn't see it as sincere, but as another pressure-inducer.

I'm afraid to even ASK to talk to her about it because she shuts down completely. She's not as receptive to making sacrifices as you sound----she doesn't see them as sacrifices or AOE, but demands or expectations, even though I never said or implied (or meant to imply) that's what they were.

I don't know her doctor. I don't know how to suggest she ask her doctor----just the idea of knowing she would ask her doctor would help me so much until then. Frankly, it feels like she's not trying----she wants to feel differently, but she doesn't want to talk or act on her own. It hurts me, but I know she doesn't mean to make it hurt me.

So when you say, "IF your w 'agrees' to have more intimacy with you, and does not seem to "mind" it, is that enough for you?," I say yes----just the idea of her showing some sign that she realizes she can help this specific hurt I've never felt before would do wonders for me. It's a sacrifice---the sign of that sacrifice would be huge to me, whereas instead it's the opposite, she internalizes it and sees it as criticism or something I think. She doesn't want to have unwanted sex or cook food when she's not hungry because she'd feel "pressured" is the word she would use.

To me, "pressured" sounds like a bail-out, an excuse not to talk about it. That's the kind of thing that hurts almost if not as much as not having sex anymore. I can handle her not having an orgasm, it's happened before (albeit it's rare, and often she'll have multiple orgasms) and it didn't crush me or anything in part because she helped me understand she still wanted that level intimacy regardless, the kind that's now absent.

I hear you on not keeping score like about her friends keeping her out later than she's able to with me---I don't mean for it to sound like I'm keeping score, just that it does feel like an excuse to her "I'm tired" so very often. I don't keep score and harbor it against her, it simply hurts is all.

"If your w agrees to ML more often, perhaps to initiate it more too, will that be enough for you? " Yes. Absolutely. And part of me feels like a terrible person to feel that way and an even worse husband to try to bring it up again. I never actually asked for outright more sex or more initiated sex on her behalf, but only perhaps because I'm terrified of the response due to how the question alone would shut her down.

"Why not Just ask for more intimacy b/c you want & NEED it and it's an essential ingredient for you." Because, and this is the bottom line, she will shut down just from me asking. We can't communicate, and maybe that issue is one-sided, but I can't fix that either. And I can't ask or it will get worse, perhaps to the point of being impossible to fix.

I mean, it all sounds so simple. I had some reluctancy to talk to her about it in the first place, but then I did. I was compelled to after hearing Michele's talk. Only my W didn't listen and only took it as criticism. I don't think I did it in the wrong way, I think she just hasn't accepted her part in the marriage as having to give sometimes when you don't want to. I do that too---I don't want to do the lawn, pay most of the bills, take her to some of the things she asks me to, but the difference is not only do I do them but I don't resent her for them or feel betrayed just by her asking. I sacrifice a lot. It's definitely not 50-50. But I can't be the one to tell her that, so I feel completely stuck. Just totally stuck----I think if she would listen, truly listen to what most experts like Michele and people here have to say, her behavior would change and, more importantly, she would be able to talk to me about it.

Instead, I know I can't bring it up tonight----I said I would be patient a few days ago, and if I brought it up it's like hitting the reset button. Yet every day I feel pain at some point, unloved, unwanted, unwilling to be sacrificed for in a way that would uplift me more than any pill or drug. Hell, I wish you were her friend and could talk to her----obviously I can't talk to our friends about it, I know that, but still, she doesn't want to hear it from me, not right now at all. I could listen to her all night and not judge or get upset, I just can't get her to talk without shutting down completely, and that alone is a trauma that may be just as bad as I feel rejected everyday, so do I take the rejection every day just to avoid the possibility that my W feels that way when I try to communicate with her about it?