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Good.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
Joined: Mar 2014
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So, The Four Agreements... pretty interesting little book. Gets a little hokey here and there IMO, but overall I think it contains some great "advice" and in fact I'm already re-reading it. I'm fairly well-versed in Buddhism and the two philosophies appear to have a lot in common. Unfortunately last night I failed to put into practice most of what The Four Agreements talks about and had quite a bit of a set-back in my DBing...not sure how it's going to pan-out...

W is a server at a fairly nice restaurant and has a set of regular clientele that request her service when they come to eat. An older couple that she regularly waits on had invited W and one of her coworkers to have dinner at their house sometime, and last night was the night for that. W got home around 9pm, we talked about her night for a bit, and then she headed back out to meet up with one of her girlfriends.

No problem with any of this so far... However...

I woke up around 1:45am and W wasn't home, so I checked my phone and there were no texts/messages from her. This is a hot-button issue for me, and I'm not proud to say I allowed my self to get to a bad place...really just let my emotions go unchecked, and at the time felt justified because this is the one boundary I've set in all of this, and W and I have talked about it back and forth/up and down, and she had agreed that it was completely fair and justified that if we are going to stay in the house together then the late nights out with no communication from her had to stop. The expectation wasn't even that she would stop going out, just that when it got late she would give me the same level of consideration the babysitter would get and send a text saying where she was and what her plans were, especially regarding when she would be home.

So when W got home a little after 2am, I was pissed...and I let it be known. I wasn't screaming and yelling by any means, but I was angry and it was apparent, and I basically told her this was a non-negotiable and that I felt like she was always coming up with reasons for why in a given situation she thought this boundary of mine didn't apply and that she didn't need to stick to it (in this case it was "you knew who I had gone out with and where we were so even though it started getting late I didn't think I needed to text you to let you know my plan for the rest of the night"), despite us agreeing that no matter what, when it started getting late into the night we owed each other the basic level of consideration of letting the other one know what was up.

I'm really not proud of this, but ultimately I told her that if this was how it was going to continue, then she should plan on moving out sooner rather than later as I was not prepared to continue living like this. I reiterated to her that literally the only thing I have requested and expected of her is honoring this one boundary of mine...sending a text so that I never wake up in the middle of the night wondering where she is and when she'll be home, and if she won't honor it then she needs to go. Then she started bringing up the past and how "despite how perfect" I've been the last couple of months it's still having an effect on her behavior in the present. To my credit (I think) I was still able to validate her feelings regarding that, but ultimately we left things kind of hanging, with me going back to the bedroom to sleep and her sleeping on the couch.

I am dimly aware of her coming back to bed at some point in the wee hours of the morning and giving me a hug and a kiss on the cheek and then retreating to her side of the bed to sleep. At this point it is almost 11am and I haven't heard a peep from her. I'm working at home today and S10 is home from school for the day with a fever, so the two of us are in the living room while W is in bed, presumably still sleeping although I haven't checked to confirm.

We were supposed to go to W's parents tonight for dinner, although I more than half-expect W to say she has decided to go by herself so she can talk to her parents about moving in with them. We shall see...

Kind of a rough turn considering this past week has been a high-point for us... Had an absolutely GREAT Wednesday date night and the days that followed were awesome too... Wish I had handled last night differently, but I guess if there's one thing I've learned for sure it's that I can only change how I handle things moving forward. Sure can't change the past, no matter how recent or distant it is.


H: 43
W: 37
M: 11 years
T: 12 years
S: 11
D: 8
ILYBINILWY, "I want to move out" and "I want a divorce": 3/23/14
MC started: 9/22/14
Affair and past infidelity discovered: 9/26/14
Piecing: 10/20/14
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 9,676
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Why do you need to control her?

You have enough to work on with you.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 209
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Originally Posted By: labug
Why do you need to control her?

You have enough to work on with you.



I guess I've never looked at it as controlling her... but I will concede that's what it is if that's what it is.

From my perspective I've always thought of it as she's free to do what she wants, but that I'm due at least a basic level of consideration/respect. This is my boundary. She can do what she wants when she wants, but I don't want to wake up at 1am...2am...3am, wondering where my W is and when she'll be home.

I guess if we're not piecing/reconciling than I shouldn't even expect that from her?

I guess from my perspective I was looking at it as we are getting along so well that it was ok to ask for this one thing. I don't want to control her per se, but I felt like this was ok...this was a fair thing for me to want and not unreasonable on my part. At the very least, she indicated she agreed with me when we talked about it before.

Guess that's not the case?

Last edited by stumps; 06/02/14 03:08 PM.

H: 43
W: 37
M: 11 years
T: 12 years
S: 11
D: 8
ILYBINILWY, "I want to move out" and "I want a divorce": 3/23/14
MC started: 9/22/14
Affair and past infidelity discovered: 9/26/14
Piecing: 10/20/14
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 9,676
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It's your emotional outburst in trying to relieve your anger that's the concern. Did that help your case at all?

I believe that people in a committed, loving R will want to honor boundaries and keep their loved one from worry. Your W is apparently not there. If that rule is a non-negotiable for you, then it is, and you are now in the position of standing by it.

Anger is OK, it's how we express it that is the important piece. Do you see that? How could you have handled it differently?


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 209
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stumps Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: labug
It's your emotional outburst in trying to relieve your anger that's the concern. Did that help your case at all?


Nope, sure didn't. The only thing I can say in my defense is that I'm not particularly prone to anger/outbursts...but that's not saying much.



Originally Posted By: labug
Anger is OK, it's how we express it that is the important piece. Do you see that? How could you have handled it differently?


I think if I was going to address her being out/coming home so late without any contact at all, which at this point I'm wishing I hadn't, then at the very least I should have done so by first acknowledging that by and large she has made HUGE changes regarding the partying and going out. And stayed calm. The more I'm looking at this, the more I'm seeing how much I let the past affect me... This has been my issue in our M, so I let this one "incident" become about something larger. Instead of it being one isolated thing, I let it become representative of...the culmination of...all the other similar things that have happened during our M. And that's what my anger was about. It wasn't about what happened last night, it was about what has happened on so many other nights in the past.

I don't deserve to be punished for my past mistakes...but neither does she.

Ugh. The more I'm thinking about and processing this the more I wish I'd just STFU.


H: 43
W: 37
M: 11 years
T: 12 years
S: 11
D: 8
ILYBINILWY, "I want to move out" and "I want a divorce": 3/23/14
MC started: 9/22/14
Affair and past infidelity discovered: 9/26/14
Piecing: 10/20/14
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 209
S
stumps Offline OP
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So... W finally came out of the bedroom this afternoon.

She told me she was pretty hurt by the way I expressed myself last. To her credit, she said that although she was hurt, she didn't think that meant she didn't do anything wrong and that she should have texted me. I told her I understood why she was hurt and that I was sorry for doing so, and that I obviously still had some work to do regarding how I express myself when I feel hurt or angry.

And that was that.

I'm not getting a good vibe from this but I am keeping up the PMA.


H: 43
W: 37
M: 11 years
T: 12 years
S: 11
D: 8
ILYBINILWY, "I want to move out" and "I want a divorce": 3/23/14
MC started: 9/22/14
Affair and past infidelity discovered: 9/26/14
Piecing: 10/20/14
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 209
S
stumps Offline OP
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Well...feel like a whole lot of good DBing got undone in one fell swoop...

As I suspected, dinner with W's parents got cancelled tonight so she can hang out with them alone to talk about moving in. I'll get the details from her when she returns in a couple of hours. In the meantime I'm just going to try to keep up the PMA and positive self-talk... and try to keep it as pleasant and light as possible when she let's me know her plan.

Telling the kids is going to be rough... as perceptive as I know kids can be, they have heretofore been blissful unaware that W and I are even having an marital problems. I also know kids are resilient, but I am very worried about how this is going to hit them.

I guess until she moves out I will keep up any/all of the relationship-oriented 180s W is still amenable to. And then, once she goes, I guess I stick with the GAL and start going more LRT.

I can't say I'm not scared of what is ahead... but I see and accept my role in all of this...and I accept that I am the only person I control.


H: 43
W: 37
M: 11 years
T: 12 years
S: 11
D: 8
ILYBINILWY, "I want to move out" and "I want a divorce": 3/23/14
MC started: 9/22/14
Affair and past infidelity discovered: 9/26/14
Piecing: 10/20/14
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 9,676
L
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Offline
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Posts: 9,676
Originally Posted By: stumps
Originally Posted By: labug
It's your emotional outburst in trying to relieve your anger that's the concern. Did that help your case at all?


Nope, sure didn't. The only thing I can say in my defense is that I'm not particularly prone to anger/outbursts...but that's not saying much.



Originally Posted By: labug
Anger is OK, it's how we express it that is the important piece. Do you see that? How could you have handled it differently?


I think if I was going to address her being out/coming home so late without any contact at all, which at this point I'm wishing I hadn't, then at the very least I should have done so by first acknowledging that by and large she has made HUGE changes regarding the partying and going out. And stayed calm. The more I'm looking at this, the more I'm seeing how much I let the past affect me... This has been my issue in our M, so I let this one "incident" become about something larger. Instead of it being one isolated thing, I let it become representative of...the culmination of...all the other similar things that have happened during our M. And that's what my anger was about. It wasn't about what happened last night, it was about what has happened on so many other nights in the past.

I don't deserve to be punished for my past mistakes...but neither does she.

Ugh. The more I'm thinking about and processing this the more I wish I'd just STFU.


((( )))If it's any consolation, we usually tend to keep doing these things until we learn how to do it better.

It can start as simply as recognizing in everyday life how you feel anger, where it starts and then working with it. Feelings it, letting it go and then searching for what you are really angry about and then addressing that.

About this: I'm not particularly prone to anger/outbursts.
Is that completely true or do you have anger that you just don't express?


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 209
S
stumps Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: labug


About this: I'm not particularly prone to anger/outbursts.
Is that completely true or do you have anger that you just don't express?


Being as honest with myself as possible, I think it is a true statement. I have had, however, problems in the past with how I express anger...or rather how I don't express. A big contributor to problems earlier in my marriage was the fact that I would withdraw when I got angry. Sometimes for hours, sometimes for a day or two. This would drive W nuts. I'm happy to report this isn't so much of an issue anymore; it is one of the things I pretty successfully dealt with in prior IC. That isn't just my assessment. W has praised me many times for how far I've come in this regard, and in fact we talked about it not too long ago and she reiterated that although she obviously had issues with me and the marriage that lead her to drop the bomb, the way I dealt with my anger was no longer one of them.

In fact, interestingly enough, W admitted not too long ago that she was seeing that *she* had become the "stuffer" in the relationship...that she didn't know how to express negative feelings, and so instead she stuffed them down inside until they essentially metastasized until both the feelings themselves and the objects of them
became something far greater than they would have if she had just been able to express them.

Not that that lets me off the hook by any means. I know what I contributed to this marital breakdown. What I can say for myself...which W would concur with as she has said it herself several times over the past couple months, is that since she dropped
the bomb I've done a d@mn good job of turning myself around. But be that as it may, I don't want to have angry outbursts like the one I had the other night, no matter how rare they are. Anger under certain circumstances may be normal, even healthy at times, but that's not how I want to handle and conduct myself.

So where we are now, according to my W, is I have become the "perfect" husband...treating her how she always wanted to be treated, doing the things she always wanted me to do, being the man she always wanted me to be. But she says none of it is changing her feelings, or lack thereof, toward me...despite the fact that she still says she loves and cares about me, that I am her family, and that I am her best friend. Despite the fact that we keep having these great date nights. Despite the fact that she still asks me to massage her, to do things for her. Despite the fact that we are doing more with each other and with our neighbors now than at any other point in our marriage. And despite the fact that she is starting to return the favors (this morning she brought me coffee in bed and then asked if I wanted a back rub because she knew my back had been hurting).

According to her, despite all of these ostensibly positive signs, she still feels like she's done, and can't get over her disappointment and resentment regarding our marital history, and although she says she believes my changes are real and permanent, she says she's just not willing to risk finding herself in this position again...that she looks at the older women she knows that are in unhappy marriages and she refuses to become one of them.

I received some advice a while back from my father-in-law, who said just keep doing what I'm doing, and if she moves out as she now says she intends to, it will give her something to miss when I'm no longer around. And if it doesn't change her heart and mind, it will at least make me a happier healthier person and a d@mn fine partner for someone else in the future. Have to admit it was nice hearing that, especially from W's dad of all people...but also have to admit that I don't want this hard work to be of benefit to anyone except me, my kids, and my W.

Last edited by stumps; 06/04/14 12:22 AM.

H: 43
W: 37
M: 11 years
T: 12 years
S: 11
D: 8
ILYBINILWY, "I want to move out" and "I want a divorce": 3/23/14
MC started: 9/22/14
Affair and past infidelity discovered: 9/26/14
Piecing: 10/20/14
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