You know FY, it seems to me you got a lot of feedback
Just one thing to add - it seems that you are trying to walk that line between her needs and yours. Keep that in mind - it's not easy to walk that line.
As you take in the advice, keep at it!
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
I re-read this thread a couple times, just to make sure what I was seeing and reading. I gave it overnight and read it again...
It could probably get misconstrued that you are being convinced to do something now...
And I want to make it clear that I am NOT saying that you need to act now.
What I am saying is, that you really need to be aware of what is around you, and to have absolute truth, and brutal honesty about your interactions. So that you are NOT giving yourself false information here.
And as painful as it may be, you need to place yourself according to that information....
As far as the touch ??
Look, I don't always agree with the coaching here, yet I won't go against it either...
To me, initiating touch to an MLCer, with a sexual abuse past, is absurd. Until she has dealt with those issues....
One of the things that I have heard from the many MLCers that have made it out of the tunnel, is that the integrity of the person on the other side is what has drawn them back to that person.
And that IF you are initiating touch ??
Just because she doesn't seem to be pulling away, or "seems" to be responding...does NOT mean that she is accepting it....
Touch to a WAW is VERY different, than touch to a MLCer. Especially one with sexual abuse in her past...
You wrote this on 3-3-2014
Originally Posted By: FY
3-3 "Last night W walked into the room carrying our dog, all the while kissing and goo-gooing the heck out of her. When I made a playful comment (something about that being an awful lot of goo-goo talk going on) W said “She’s special”. A few moments later I stopped W when she was walking past me, and asked her to give me her hand. “Why? I don’t want to!” she said, but I insisted. “Just do it, give me your hand, I want to tell you something” Finally she reached out. I took her hand and told her she was special too!
Just little stuff I’m trying because the time seems right. I know for sure it’s not hurting things between us, and I need to change things up around here… For me. If she likes it, good. If not, oh well! We'll see what happens!
Do you see the pressure here ???
To you, it may have been a simple act of holding her hand, and feeding her LL...
She expressed that she did not want to, and you insisted...
And just to know that I read everything...
This was your response when asked about it...
Originally Posted By: FY 3-3
I wish I had a penthouse version
There was no flinch, no nervousness, just a little bit of "perturbedness". Even so, I know she appreciated it, because WOA is one of her LL's. Mostly, I see it as a positive because in the end she DID reach out to me, when she didn't have to. She could have easily refused.
Could she have refused ????
You "insisted", right ???
How did you know that she appreciated it when you haven't asked ???
WOA may very well be her LL...
And if it was, then why the insisting of holding her hands ???
Isn't that a PT LL ???
It was certainly pressure on her, because she knew, that YOU wanted more than that...
On 3-19-2014, you posted this....
Originally Posted By: FY
The day after our movie date, I was feeling down for a bit. W hadn't reached out to touch me, hadn't joined me in our bed, and still closed up the bathroom curtain tight when showering/changing. Things were not turning for the better like I had hoped, I told myself, and maybe never would."
Like I said, I am not blasting you here....
I just want you to be honest with YOURSELF about what is happening....
THAT is a part of selling yourself for the Marriage...
You are wishing and hoping for this so badly, that you are willing to take ANY scrap off of that table...
IF you are comfortable with that, then go for it, and I will support that...
DB says to do what works....are your touches working ???
I would say that they aren't....
My advice to you was....
That given the circumstances (sexual issues), IF you are going to touch her with the intention of fulfilling a physical need, either in yourself, or to stir something up within her....
Then you need to have the talk...
Let me ask you this...
When was the last time that you read 5LL ??
Not being smartass or anything...
I always recommend reading it more than once. The first time is usually pretty early on in our stand, and it reads as more of a "how I F'ed this up" manual...
The second time is usually a very different view of it.
How do you GIVE love, in relation to how you receive love ???
It seems as if you give love in a PT way, which is a direct pressure on her just by your being there...
Not a slight at all, just something to be aware of....
Just my opinion though...and I hope that it helps you see things a slight bit differently....
What I think is that you're doing a good job of standing for your W and trying to revive the intimacy in the R. It is not easy at all as humans require touch and it can be difficult to go for long periods without touch.
Sexual abuse aside, I do think that W is slowly coming around as she's been responsive to your requests for head rubs, combing hair, etc. That was a significant change from the previous months.
I have friends in RL who are sexual abuse survivors and I have heard some real horror stories directly from their mouths. Many of them have gone on to be married and have children. I cannot comment on your W's situation because I don't know her story or history.
Some survivors just shut down and don't bother with IC. It is a choice each person needs to make for themselves. On top of it, you mix it with the MLC...can really complicate things in terms of IC or MC.
Perhaps you might want to talk with your W and ask her opened ended questions as a way of opening the dialogue about your M. State that you want to be sensitive to her feelings and really want to hear her perspective on where she stands in the M. Yep, it can be scary, but I think it will be liberating for the two of you as things will be put on the table for discussion.
Your W just might feel safer if you reassure her that you are interested in non-sexual intimacy such as holding hands, cuddling, etc and you're open to having W decide when she wishes to enter a more sexual phase. Just a thought to mull over.
Instead of taking big chomps at the discussion, perhaps break down in a small series of discussions. You'll just have to gauge W's willingness on this front and adjust accordingly. Look at this from the perspective as a team approach.
I want to add that one of my first friends, who is a sexual abuse survivor, suggested that I read this book when I first learned about sexual abuse more than 20 years ago. It really opened my eyes and I thought you might find it helpful as well. If you have not yet read this book, then it would be a good one to start. Allies In Healing by Laura Davis
I re-read this thread a couple times, just to make sure what I was seeing and reading. I gave it overnight and read it again...
It could probably get misconstrued that you are being convinced to do something now...
Thank you for taking the time to do that Mach, and very astute observation on your part. That is exactly how it felt to me: Like I was being pushed to "do something now", which the more I thought about it, seemed foolish. We all know these situations take time to turn around.
One of W's comments at BD was that she felt she was "Driving the boat", or basically, leading in the M. Mr Bonds response to this:
"Yes she's been running the M, but most importantly she wanted you to take charge. Of the household, of the bedroom all of it."
This is what I've been attempting to do. Step up my game.
I think oftentimes, us left behind spouses are too fearful. Walking around on eggshells, afraid we may do or say the wrong thing. That is no way to live life. That is another way of losing oneself.
Confidence is attractive. Being afraid to say or do things, or initiate touch, is not.
Back when I was first advised to initiate touch, I was met by W with pull backs and requests not to do it. So I shelved it. Her recent responses, while not as spectacular as I'd like them to be, have shown much improvement. Yay! Even so, I think you (and others) have made some good points for pulling back a bit. I will do that, along with observing her reaction with these new perspectives in mind.
Physical contact between spouses has to be natural, not forced.
Thank you everyone for your thoughts.
M: A really long time. Crisis: 5 years. She's still worth it.
Life is never made unbearable by circumstances, but only by lack of meaning and purpose. -Viktor Frankl
Hi FY, I was on a different site back in Dec. where I was being pressured, hard, to take action. All it did was make things worse and may have sealed the end of my marriage. Never let anyone pressure you into doing anything! Right after b-day, my W didn't want me to touch her at all. Later that changed and she would accept some touches here and there. Things were progressing nicely until something unrelated happened and messed up everything.
You seem to have a pretty good R with your W right now. Keep doing what YOU feel is right and what works for you. Best of luck!
One of W's comments at BD was that she felt she was "Driving the boat", or basically, leading in the M. Mr Bonds response to this:
"Yes she's been running the M, but most importantly she wanted you to take charge. Of the household, of the bedroom all of it."
This is what I've been attempting to do. Step up my game.
There was a lot more in those words, and in that response than just that, and I got the impression that Mr Bond was speaking with a WA mindset still. It was early in your posting here.
And I do agree with what he said, and even with the sample sentence above....
You made the statement the other day, about why it took this, for me to post to you. And in keeping with my rule of absolute truth, it was because I didn't feel as though you wanted to hear much of what I had to say.
You had your plan, and I wasn't going to mess it up, nor were you very open to hearing thoughts that did not mirror yours....
Now, I could be totally wrong about that. Just the feeling that I got....
As I was once told, this ISN'T a game, but it will feel like, and play like a game FY. There will be times when you feel that you are manipulating your situation, or doing things just for shock value.
The difference will be when you truly feel that way, or when you are just doing it for a reality check.
Understand this...
One of the things that MLCers have to face, is their rock bottom, before they have some semblance of wanting to climb back up. All of the exterior possessions, emotions, and feelings have to fail ( to a degree), in order for them to take charge and look inside for their answers. Some never make it through, and some do.
You don't know what their bottom is, because they don't know what it is either. You may never know what that bottom is. It is as simple as they need it to be, or as complicated as they need it to be, yet it affects the MLC greatly....
I agree that they all do it very differently, and on their own time plan. What Wonka experienced is different than what AmyC experienced, is different than what Mirage went through, Jack's wife, etc....
Yet they all hit their bottom, in their own time, in their own way...and they all seemed to experience that same thing through their own version of hitting bottom.....the loss of their partner became VERY real to them...
I know that you want to step up your game now, yet I see you trying to step up the game for the Marriage, and not just for you...
The old cliche, that you can't fix this for her is never more true. And I know how badly that you want to fix it for her....
With ZERO disrespect to Raine, or TVS here. What worked for them, MAY not work for you. Men in MLC react differently than Women in MLC do during reconnection. Men tend to come home with their tail between their legs (so to speak). Women tend to come home more violently, and pursue harder out of the gate.
Hell hath no fury like a Woman scorned ??
Or one that knows what she wants, and goes after it....
Your Wife has never lost you, and has never had to fight for you. And I am NOT saying that you should just say " well then, that is what I need to do" either, cause it isn't.
That is where the "it plays like a game" part feels so wrong....
Jack's wife lost him, and she pursued hard...
Jack had moved in a different direction, and was looking forward to a life without her...
AmyC lost her husband, and she pursued hard...
He had moved on, and wasn't looking for her to want that...
You may very well be able to keep status quo for the rest of your life with her, and if you do ? Then you have to accept that it may never change from what it is now. It may never grow and be different.
And it may very well change for the better, we never know what our future holds.
As I said before, I just want you to be brutally honest with what you are seeing...
The route that you are taking is harder on YOU, because you have that front row seat to the show.
Your expectations are greater Your focus is greater
And so is your potential to try and manipulate your situation.....
Just remember that.
Do things because they are what YOU want to do...
Not because they are the things that you feel that the Marriage wants to do...
If this is your plan, then you need to have more patience than you have ever had before in your life, and then some more after that....
Try not to interchange your approach either...
Yes, you may have very well had a SSM, yet IF she is MLC, then SSM rules go completely the opposite direction from MLC...
The MLC has to be dealt with before the SSM can be dealt with....
You cannot solve this for her, for one, or the other, and definitely not both at the same time.....
I would assume that her sexual abuse is tied very strongly to the issues behind the MLC issues. And she will either choose to deal with them, or she won't. I would suspect that any nudging in any direction will be considered the same pressure from you.
It will still be YOUR answer, for HER problems. And she needs/wants to figure this out on her own....
I read a post about MLC when I first started reading here. And the last paragraph has stayed with me throughout my postings.....
"Your spouse may eventually come through the fog, or the tunnel that they are in. There will be no guarantee that the relationship will fail or succeed, although I can tell you this. Nothing will EVER be the same after that."
FY, I realized that I did not say that your apology is accepted. Thank you for extending it.
You are getting some wonderful advice here. And sometimes, when we are at a place where we are getting antsy for some definitive action, that remains the focus. So, take some time to digest all of this before you decide what your next step is.
The wonderful thing about this place is the diversified opinions and experience.
You have the best of the best posting to you. They will make you think in ways you might not have.
The bottom line here is always that we want what people to be their best selves. We want to be able to help them get through some of the hardest stuff they wiil ever have to face.
