Mature Love

[RosaLinda]

<3 Love you, my friend. You're a good man, and I truly pray that your wife comes around.

[Rick1963]

Wonka pointing out that Mach is a bit controlling is not a good way to have a coversation. Mach will be happy to point out his flaws. He is aware of them. This thing called DB is a hit or miss. Not a perfect science.

We are all here to help people save their marriages or themseleves. You are not an expert and neither am I.

I hope you dont come back with how hurt I am. Or how much pain I am in, because that would be incorrect.

F Young I know bits and pieces of your stich. Im sorry for hijacking.
when old timers begin to attack another because they didnt like their point of view newbies lose out on valyable support.

[Takevowsserious]

Hi FY ~

Well, Linda pretty much summed it up. She has become such a bad ass, and I love it!!!

I know how much you admire and respect UR, so I think you can see how your posting seemed a bit harsh and judgemental.

Standing is hard, no doubt. It is also as individual of as choice as the people and experiences surrounding it.

I can say that personally, UR has been my biggest cheerleader. My beacon of hope when things seemed darkest.

There were times when she would say - TVS, I worry about you. This is taking it's toll on you. You can't sacrifice you.

She was/is right.

If I ever get to that point where I'm "done", I'll know I did everything that I could to save my marriage. That, to me, is taking your vows seriously. I'm not TVS for nothing!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The no physical intimacy is so difficult. I know.

There was an interesting conversation about this on the alt - do women and men view this differently? Does a woman need emotional intimacy before physical intimacy and vice versa for men?

Keep finding ways to connect with her emotionally FY. Not just spend time together doing an activity, but not really connecting. Think. Think of things that may draw you two closer.

Or as someone very wise has told me, numerous times, show her the possibilities of what could be...

[cat04]

Fy,

I told you i would explain.

Your W was sexually abused as a child. And she told you she does not want you to touch her. That hasnt changed as far as you have posted.

I dont believe you are in a SSM. What you describe is the honeymoon phase that settled into a more comfortable relationship as your M matured. And then her crisis started.

You may have different drive levels but i dont get the impression that it was ever sex starved until around bomb time.

When you write about asking her to place her hand in yours and she asks why and eventually reluctantly gives in, or you patting her bum and she doesnt say anything, it doesnt seem like a man putting the moves on his W. It seems like very calculated ways for you to get the physical touch you need regardless of what she wants.

It appears disrespectful of her and her feelings.

What i dont think you understand...when you have been violated, sex takes on a very different look and feel than for someone who hasnt been violated. It isnt always beautiful or fun. Sometimes, its ugly. Sometimes any sort of touch at all feels like a violation all over again.

And its actually very easy to simply not be interested in it. No matter how good other areas of a relationship might be. No matter how high or low your drive may be.

As to Jack's comment. Jack does not believe in taking anyone's hope, regardless of his opinion of the situation. The post he wrote saying that, was 8 years after his reconciliation. After a very life changing situation. That made him appreciate his W more than he did before. Prior to their reconciliation, Jack did give up. He had reached his limit. And when his W wanted to come back, he was angry about it. Its in a thread around here somewhere. He is happy and grateful he left the door cracked however it took him time and going through the steps to get there. He will never just say dont quit, stand forever at all costs.

Do i think you have lost yourself?

I see a man who loves his W. A man who is waiting for the situation to get better. Who wants and needs a physical relationship with his wife. I see two years of posts talking about expressing your needs soon. About not being sure how long you can hold out. And then you tell Mach you havent talked about it because you know her answer hasnt changed.

You have a friendly relationship with your W. This may be as good as it ever gets. You really need to decide if you can be married as it is now. Are you willing to let go of the physical part of your relationship forever? If you are, then go have a wonderful M. And let go of the frustrations and expectations.

If you cant live like this forever and that is something that you know for sure, then you are in danger of selling yourself for the M. Only you know when enough is enough.

I would like to see you develop some respect for your W and her wishes. If she wants you to touch her, she will iniate it eventually.

When I get all "touch me not", my BF backs off. And I always come back to him. And it takes less time than when i feel pressured to respond to his advances.

JMO.

[Wonka]

Rick,

Wonka pointing out that Mach is a bit controlling is not a good way to have a coversation. Mach will be happy to point out his flaws. He is aware of them. This thing called DB is a hit or miss. Not a perfect science.

Stating that I have an 'agenda' wasn't helpful at all.

We are all here to help people save their marriages or themseleves. You are not an expert and neither am I.

Yep...that's the goal and beauty of this community forum. Never once did I claim to be an "expert". I am just like everyone here...contributing when I can. People can either listen to advice or not take it. How wonderful!

I hope you dont come back with how hurt I am. Or how much pain I am in, because that would be incorrect

Huh??! You lost me right there ^^. What a disconnect, Rick. You are just simply expressing your view here.

[Matt165]

Hi Fy,
I just wanted to say that I can see, like myself, you love your wife very much. I also take my vows seriously as almost everyone I see on these boards does. Not so much the general public as when I look at all my W's new friends, most have been married more than once or are divorced. They tell my W all the time that because she wants out of her M and I don't, that I will do "horrible" things! So, now just wanting to work on a 20 year marriage means I must be an awful person? Loving my W even though she is going through a bad period of not being sure what she wants makes me the kind of person who will do hurtful things? How has it become that the S that says they will always love their W (or H) is now seen as suspect, must be up to no good?

I tried to back my W in every way thru-out our entire M. If she wanted to try something new I was her biggest cheerleader. I never tried to stop her from doing anything that she felt she wanted or needed to do but now, when I say I don't think D is the answer, others tell her I'm selfish or must want something from her.

You are much better off than most here as at least you and your W have some kind of decent relationship. What I wouldn't give to do many of the things you do together. It seems to me that my W would like to do many of those things but is constantly being told not to by the very people she thinks care about her but don't have a clue. People who have never had someone in their lives who love or care enough about them to do the things we do every day for our W's even when we get so little back from them. Maybe it's because of the society we seem to live in today. The "all about me", "what's in it for me", thought process everyone seems to have about every part of their lives. Anyone doing something purely because we love and care about another person, putting our needs or wants on hold is viewed as manipulative or suspect.

I too have had to go through a long "no sex" period with my W. The difference is, after B-day, my W has told me that it's not sex that is the problem, it's me. That is a very hurtful thing to hear from a person you have loved for 25 years! For the longest time it seemed that my W would say hurtful things just to see if she could drive me away. It didn't work but now she wants to believe I must really secretly be wanting to hurt her. To get back at her for all the hurtful things she has said and done because that is all she hears from others, the attitude she sees everywhere around her.

I wish you the best FY. Us standing H's are hard to find and everyone of us on these boards are good men who take our vows seriously and if all people took them as seriously as we do (and they should be) we wouldn't have the D rate or so many long, good marriages ending in so much pain for everyone involved. We have to remember that everyone we see here on these boards are the good ones. The ones who are trying, each in their own way too keep their vows. If only there were more of us out there!

[Mach1]

Cat has already hit on some of the same things that I wanted to say, so I apologize if it is repetitive here...

Mach, it's been a while since we talked about it and here's why:

If she's not ready then the only outcome of the convo is me sucking it up and continuing on as is, or me making a move out of the M.

Ending the M is not an option at the moment, and may never be.

Talking about it is not helpful if she is not ready. (other than little hints) Plus, like Heather said, W can sense what I want. Why put more pressure on her?

Pressure doesn't only come with words FY, pressure also feeds off of your actions.

The little taps , etc, are all forms of physical pressure for her. The looks of disappointment when she pulls away, is still pressure on her....

She has known you for over 30 years, and she knows your triggers here.

You are looking for more, and I do understand that. She also understands that through your actions.

And I do think that it is your expectations that frustrate you with this.

You have expectations of this still being the Marriage that you entered 30 years ago. (and I know on some level you know it isn't, yet on a different level, you really want it to be, and are wishing it to be)

You have wants and needs that are NOT being met.

You fear the outcome of the conversation, therefore you refuse to have it.

What if she says no

What if she still wants to leave

What if she wants a Divorce...

Where does that leave you and your vow "soapbox" ???

So for me, the next time I have The Big Talk, (following Michele's guidelines from SSM) it will only be because I am close to done. I am no where close.

Yet this isn't just a SSM. There are deeper issues at play, and following SSM rules MAY not apply here.

She was sexually violated....there is a big difference here...

You are here in the MLC forum, so apparently, you feel as though she is MLC...

Part of her going through her MLC is dealing with the sexual issues , and her identity...

She may very well come through the MLC tunnel and NOT change her drive at all...

IF...you are truly building that connection, then I feel as though you need to be BRUTALLY honest with yourself in that regard. You need to know the difference between whether or not you are really getting closer ?

OR are you just wanting it so badly, that you have your rose colored glasses on....

After a hand hold, or a "bum" pat, back rub, etc....

Does she continue this with you on her own ???

Or does the asking phase have to happen again for the next time ???

To me ???

THAT is the difference between a healthy stand for your vows, and selling yourself just to say that you are still Married...

And let me be clear... This is not all about sex. It's about physical intimacy. Holding hands, hugging, cuddling, etc. As great as sex can be, it's not the only consideration for me. If it was I'da been gone.

FY, I do believe you, and I do understand the part about intimacy.

For me, it is the part that you are planning it, instead of seeing it happen naturally, without the "creepy" stuff...

It's only been as of late that I've been initiating touch, as suggested by others here. I like to think of a new relationship: it is usually the man who initiates touch. I want to be confident and assertive. If W is not ready, I will pull back. After two plus years, I'm an expert at no touch!

I covered this above...

And my only question is, is she responding, or is it a repeated pattern of you having to ask for it every time...

And as far as posting about it here? I'm sorry if you or anyone else feels offended reading about a man putting the moves on his W of 30 years. It would seem some others enjoy the pleasant diversion from the normal, much more painful topics on the board.

I understand that she is your Wife for over 30 years....(and sorry, you can disguise it like that if you choose to)

I also understand that she has told you , that she didn't want to be your wife anymore, and specifically told you that she did not want you to touch her....

You haven't asked, and she hasn't said you could...

And you continue to plan these touches and such....

THAT is the part that bothers me....



And just for the record, I am not against you standing at all...

I applaud your efforts very much...

And one day when you are having pornstar sex, I will be one of your biggest fans....

Until that time though, just be sure that you are doing this for the right reasons, and you are doing it in an emotionally healthy way...

[ForeverYoung]

Well, this has been fun. Funny how a misstated comment can pull folks outta the woodwork!

Linda, you have such a loving heart. I can’t believe it will be long until a new man wants to be part of your life.

TVS! So glad to hear from you. I hope things continue to improve in your M.

Keep finding ways to connect with her emotionally FY. Not just spend time together doing an activity, but not really connecting. Think. Think of things that may draw you two closer.

Or as someone very wise has told me, numerous times, show her the possibilities of what could be...

^^^This, is exactly my plan. W seems plenty comfortable around me emotionally. Tells me nearly everything about her life. And of course, I've become the best listener. This wasn't always so.

[LoisB]

FY,

Does your W want to heal the sexual stuff?

[ForeverYoung]

Fy,

I told you i would explain.

Thank you for taking the time to do that. I truly appreciate additional points of view.

When you write about asking her to place her hand in yours and she asks why and eventually reluctantly gives in, or you patting her bum and she doesnt say anything, it doesnt seem like a man putting the moves on his W. It seems like very calculated ways for you to get the physical touch you need regardless of what she wants.

It appears disrespectful of her and her feelings.

The bum touch was a one time thing. What you failed to mention, or didn't notice, is that there are times (semi regular) when I brush W's hair, and massage her head and neck, that she enjoys and even sometimes thanks me for. I am attempting to build on this, in a positive, non-threating manner. It's not all me attempting to have my needs met against her will.

What i dont think you understand...when you have been violated, sex takes on a very different look and feel than for someone who hasnt been violated. It isnt always beautiful or fun. Sometimes, its ugly. Sometimes any sort of touch at all feels like a violation all over again.

Right. And from what I've learned, it is not easy to get past this, and can require therapy with a qualified person.

As to Jack's comment. Jack does not believe in taking anyone's hope, regardless of his opinion of the situation. The post he wrote saying that, was 8 years after his reconciliation. After a very life changing situation. That made him appreciate his W more than he did before. Prior to their reconciliation, Jack did give up. He had reached his limit. And when his W wanted to come back, he was angry about it. Its in a thread around here somewhere. He is happy and grateful he left the door cracked however it took him time and going through the steps to get there. He will never just say dont quit, stand forever at all costs.

I did not know Jack "gave up". (your words) But this doesn't matter. Having a new and improved M does not require that one or both partners give up, or leave the home or M, or file for D etc. It can happen within the M, while partners are still partially connected. This is the hope I like to focus on, not only in my sitch, but in others.

To me, just still living together offers great hope!