Mach, When my character is attacked, when I am called sexist and an "ogre" I don't like it. Tirate? Umm, really?
Are you asking if my wife complained that I'm sexist or condescending or use "backhanded" comments? If so, no. If she had I would have had to look at my behavior since she actually would know me well enough that I would have thought maybe I need to. When someone who knows nothing about me does, than others start joining in, I have every right to respond.
If you're asking if she complained that I wouldn't just allow someone to attack my character and just let them, then no, in fact she would hate my being a doormat.
You want to know what she complained about? Not once did she say I mistreated her or went on tirates. In fact she said I treated her "too well" when she didn't deserve it. That I spent too much time with my kids and at home. I didn't go out and hang with my friends often enough. I should have just done things like go on vacation and "made" her go instead of just not going when she refused.
So no complaints about tirates, sexism, being condescending or answering personal attacks.
You're deflecting here, Matt. Yep, that one was definitely a tirade. No matter how you try to wiggle your way out of this one as "defending your honor" against perceived personal attacks.
Take a hard, long look at yourself...that will be the most important step in LISTENING to the posters' comments. All of them, in one form or another, contain nuggets of truth.
If you want an example of someone who is doing a lot of self-reflection and internal work, you would want to check out Crimson's thread over in the Newcomer's section. He listens to his posters and does a lot of self-examination. Crimson is doing a good job of taking ownership on his part with self-awarness that comes with DBing work on the SELF.
Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. I'm not you, and I won't assume your feelings....
Maybe take a step back, and understand where that comment came from before you go off on these Women, who have taken their time, to give you an opinion about what they see in your words...
You are posting on a public forum, and with that, you are inviting that kind of feedback. No person here is an expert, and what we go by, is what we see from you....what you show us.
And while none of us are experts, most of the long time posters are VERY well versed in MLC, and the common signs, and symptoms of MLC. We are ALSO pretty well versed in the LBS, and the path of the LBS. Mostly with the similar traits that led us here in the first place...
So far, what I have seen is only what you have shown to me. And what you have shown, in MY opinion, is..
You present yourself as a know-it-all kind of guy, that has to explain everything to everyone that will listen to you. You present yourself as superior to everyone that has been through what you are getting ready to face. You discount the experience that we have been through, and suggest that your way is better, faster, stronger.
And when you don't like what is being said to you ? You either lash out at them ( like you did with Cat and Wonka), or you ignore them ( which is a passive aggressive behavior).
Did you actually read the posts ??
OR did your anger, over being "attacked", override that ??
I do believe that Cat was talking to Wonka there, and I do believe that she said "usually" in her post. She wasn't talking TO you, or ABOUT you, and you chose to take it personally.....
One of YOUR WIFE'S complaints, was that you treated her like a child, that is what YOU posted. And you have NOT shown anything to contradict that from her.
Matt, I have been posting here for 6 years now, and have been reading here for 7 years. I have seen people come, and people go through this place.
I have read your words, and to be frank ?
I don't need a whole lot of history from you, because I see your past in your current words.
News flash for you buddy...
You are not perfect, nor were you ever perfect. Neither am I, nor anyone that posts to you....
And to say that you did NOTHING to deserve this...is quite an arrogant statement from you. And actually, quite insulting to people who have taken a long look at them self, and been through (experience) the work.
You have ZERO idea how other people see you, and even less idea, how Women see you.
In going against what DB teaches us, you can argue if you wish... Where is the validation that other people see you differently than you see yourself ?
Where is the validation that other people have feelings, thoughts, and their opinion matters ???
Where is the respect for people that have walked this road before you, so that they can provide the advice that you seek ??
For me ?
Arguing on the internet ?
Is a futile waste of time, nothing is gained from it, and I have better things to do with that time...
A little bit about MLC here...
MLCer's do run from their lives, yet people transition these things every day, week, month , year....
Regardless of what you may think, there IS a reason that MLC spouses run from their partner, instead of sticking around and attempting to work through things.
You did not cause her MLC, BUT..you DID contribute to it, and you DID help move it forward to the festering gob that it has turned into....
You DID play a role, and while you find her complaints invalid, or non-existent (?)...
Let me lay this out to you a little clearer...
You posted, that one of her complaints was, that you treated her like a child.....yes ???
When you were a child, did you feel comfortable talking with your parents about your most personal, deepest emotional problems ???
I would assume that you wouldn't, hell, most of us here would admit that. I know that I wasn't with my parents....
So why, would she feel comfortable coming to you, if MLC is based on a person's past childhood issues, and to have you treat her like a child ?
And confide in you those feelings ???
What I asked you was...
Did you treat her the way that you have treated the other posters here ???
Hell, you just told ME what I could and could NOT post to you ???
Sound a little controlling to you ???
Cause it screams control to me....
I dunno Matt,
You tell me where you want to go with things now.
IF you are trying to pizz me off so that I won't post to you anymore (because I do not support that Matt is perfect campaign), you aren't gonna...
And although I cannot speak for them, I highly doubt that you can pizz off Wonka, or Cat either...
I have seen both of them slug it out, with the best...
Maybe we can step back , and take a look at WHY this angered you so much, because as Wonka has said to you before (which you ignored), is that typically, when something that someone says about you , stings that much....there is a reason why...
And typically, the sting things, are the things that you don't like about yourself....
So for now...I am done with all of that ^^^^
If you choose to talk about it, then I will participate in that with you.
If you choose to treat me the way that you responded before, then I will not engage that with you...
Hello TVS, Thanks for your concern. Got a little busy as with my parents in town and my daughter's grad I haven't had much time. It's been a highly emotional week. The school my D is grad from has MANY traditions and there has been al least 2 events a day for the last 5 days! It's fun though. There are kids from 12 different countries in her grad class. It took a lot of sacrifice to pay for her to go there but I really think the broad range of cultures and the high level of education she has been exposed to will give her a head start in life.
The hardest part has been how distant my W has acted through the whole thing. I had looked forward to sharing this time with her, to have a shared sense of how we worked together to get her here. Didn't have any of that. The way she is acting is like she gets angry because my D is closer to me than her. Since she has been on her MLC journey for the last few years, I have been the one who takes my D to school functions, friends homes, go to her games or plays, etc. so I know all her friends and even some teachers much better than she does and it bothers her now. I will say my D had a couple friends over after the party we had last night and my W would usually not interact with them and would complain she wanted to go to bed and want them to leave. Last night she sat and talked to everyone and showed old pictures of our D and was much more like her old self. It was nice to see this version of her come out, even if it was just for one night.
In 2 days my parents will be gone and my FIL will come. I really am not looking forward to dealing with him and since my youngest will be grad from the school SHE has been at for the last 8 years and one of our kids have been at for last 12 there will be many events that I have been looking forward to going to where he will be there and without fail, my W acts like a jerk when she's around him. He has this way of saying something insulting and adding "...I'm just saying...." after, like that makes it OK and my wife starts doing the same thing. To give you an example, when my W was a stay at home mom he sat at my dinner table in front of her and my kids and I and said how embarrest he was when his friends ask what his D is doing, "I have to tell them she does nothing but sit at home all day, I'm just saying.....". He has told her cousins that my D who just graduated will "never amount to anything" and her life will be waste based on the fact that she went through a rough period of rebellion when she was 15-16 but has since gotten herself together and is graduating with a 3.8 GPA from a very intensive academic school. He has seen her maybe 6 times in the last 4 years and even my W has told him how well she is doing but he has decided this is who she is and that's that.
While my parents have always treated my W well, her dad has always been insulting and a jerk towards not just me but my D's as well. My D doesn't even want him to be a part of her grad but he's coming to help her mother find a place to move now that school is out. Thing is my D has told my W she doesn't want him there. She is "creeped out" by him (her words) but my W insists on having him there.
This will be hard for me as he has tried for many years to get my W to leave both me and her kids so she can "make something" of her life and he doesn't think being a parent is a worthy thing. Kids just hold you back in life. He had little to do with his kids from the time my W was 10 until he realized he may need her help when he gets old and now is pushing her to leave us and travel with him. It will be hard to just tune him out and I'm sure he will say or do something insulting to me, my D and our family as he always does!
Right after B-day my W started saying that because she would need money for living on her own and since without the 2 of us being able to take her to school and pick her up (at that time she thought my D's would choose to live with her, since than they have made it known they would choose to stay with me) my youngest wouldn't be able to go to the school her sister has. She kept trying to say how the public school where she wants to move is just as good. That stopped about 2 months later and she said she would help pay if I would as well to send her. After returning from her trip to her see her father, she once again changed her mind and told me all she was willing to do was pay for books! As I have listened to my D talk about how she is so excited about going to this school, doing the things her sister is doing and knowing that unless I can find some way to make a lot more money over the next couple months or her mother changes her mind again and becomes willing to help pay, she won't be able to go, it breaks my heart! How can her mother just not care how disappointed she is going to be? Sure, it's her choice if she wants to make the sacrifice but the hard part is up until B-day, it was a given my D would be going. How does someone change their core values so quickly? How can they vassilate from saying yes and then say no just a few weeks later with something as important as this? My W has truly become a stranger, become just like the person she swore she would never be like (her father) and it really hits home that the person she is becoming isn't one I want as my S. The values we had always shared (al least she said she shared) no longer have meaning to her. If they do, they are much less important than they used to be.
In a way it helps me see that it's more important than ever for me to build my life as if she no longer existed. To think how I would act and what I would do if say she just disappeared one day and work on doing those things. At the same time, she IS still around and I know how her actions will hurt my D and how that will make her feel and wish there was a way to save her from that pain. I've seen how the way her dad treated her has affected my W all her life, how she craved his attention even as he said and did hurtful things. How hard it is for her to trust people and I don't want my D to go through that later in her life. All I can do is try to be the best parent I can be. To be a stable force in her life.
I know I haven't been a perfect husband and father, it's just not possible for anyone to be perfect at anything. I'm not that stupid or deluded. There are always ways to be better, things I did I shouldn't have done or things I didn't do I should have. That's life. But when you live with someone for more than 20 years, who you chose to spend your life with based on the values you shared and lived by and suddenly that person says those values no longer hold any meaning to them. That they have no control over how they feel, they feel this new way and there's nothing to be done about it, it's confusing and painful. Right now, knowing that in the next couple weeks, I will have to tell my D she won't be going to the school she thought she was and will also have to deal with my W leaving the only home my D has ever known and will be asked to split her time between her mom's home and her own. How hard is that going to be for a 14 year old who loves both her parents and has heard from both her mother and I how we would never let that happen? Her mother more strongly than me.
These are the things that weigh heavily on me at the moment. As for me having to live on my own, no longer part of a team but now a single dad trying to start over, that is something I know I can do. As much as I love my W still, I know that she isn't the person I married and while there may come a time when she comes out of the MLC fog she seems to be stuck in, that time may never come. Even when she does, she won't be the same person and if the way she has shed the very things that I loved most about her now is any indication, I may not even want that person back in my life. All I can do is become the person I most want to be. For my D's, they only get one mother. She will always be their mother and they will have to live with the person she becomes for the rest of their lives. I pray that person is a loving, caring, involved mother who has good values and lives by them.
TMAK2, You are not making excuses for the behavior that our mlcing spouses are exhibiting. If anything, you are attempting to turn the light bulb on for many people. You see, people just don't understand how a spouse that has been kind, loving and responsible for 20+ years can go out there and just flip to another personality We have been attempting to explain the dynamics behind the personality change and hopefully, w/your help, we can at least turn the light bulbs on a bit. TMAK2, there is a book that I have found, from a web site that Sting posted on my thread, that will turn the light bulb on for all readers. The Jim Conway books only touch the surface of mlc. The book that I am currently reading, and hope to finish today, is the most descriptive and thorough book on mlc that I have read in the last 4 years. It is called "Understanding The Mid-Life Crisis" by Peter O'Connor. He talks about the exercising, sexathons, the anger, the search for self, the trying of different things for self-healing, the depression, the withdrawal, the what ifs they ask themselves, the fantasies that they play out, etc. And one thing that I had suspected for a while but never posted--the jealousy over their own teenager children while they are both going through their own individual identity crisis. This book is not a piece of fluff, but a very important document that required much research. I believe it will help you in better understanding what your h is going through. This book will cost (US funds) $6.95 and it is well worth every penny. I also have a book of his that deals w/moving into your 50's. I'm getting ready to begin that one this coming week. I got both books off of the Amazon site. TMAK2, please keep posting. You've got a good head on your shoulders and have a good balance in your life. Your son will be your main mentor in understanding your h's depression. Again, thank you for assisting in turning the light bulb on! The sharing of such information will help others to better understand that their spouses didn't want this to happen nor are they having the time of their lives out there, i.e., there is much pain involved in the crisis.
Jaycee, We all have had the question about why they turn to the OW/OM instead of us. Well, after reading O'Connor's book, I have a better understanding of why they talk to someone else. You see, they are feeling confused and very unsure of themselves at this time, therefore, they don't feel comfortable relating their feelings to their spouses. They think that we will not understand and will not empathize with them. They think we will say shape up, the garbage needs to be put out or that we will poo poo their feelings and tell them to get a grip. The other person will sit and listen to their fears and their complaints and will not be hurt by what they have to say. The other person will validate their thoughts/feelings in such a way that we were not allowed to do. That is why we are left out of the loop because of their preconceived notion that we will judge them harshly and/or laugh at what they are feeling. In some cases, they can actually explain what is going on within themselves better to a stranger than to us. I hope that this will help you. Jaycee, it's not you or our children's fault that he turned to another woman. It's his problem that he can't sit down and talk to you at this time. He doesn't trust himself or his feelings w/you right now. You also have to remember that the other woman doesn't know him the way you do and that's a positive in your favor. She's only seeing the side of him that is hurting and running scared right now. When he wakes up, things will change again and she will be the one on the outside wondering what happened to them. Some day, he will talk to you about some of what has happened to him, but not right now Be patient. Do not take what he is doing personally. I know that it is very hard to understand, but he will make it through the crisis when he's ready.
In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus
Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm
I want to start by saying that I am sorry that you felt a comment that was not directed at you was offensive.
I am a bit of a realist. We live in a world where the ism's exist. Sexism, racism, religious ism's, and they are not all bad things.
I live in the South. I was raised in the North. Very different cultures. Down here, men open doors and step aside for women (whether they know them or not) because it is what they do. Up North, that is not as common a practice. When I first moved, I thought of it negatively. I was offended by the practice. As I have lived here, I have learned that it simply is a courtesy. Based in sexist beliefs.
Just part of life.
Another part of life, is that people really do change. At their core sometimes. It isn't always fair and it isn't always right and it can hurt those around them. It is what it is.
I read your post to TVS. I am sorry that you had a difficult weekend. How difficult it was is primarily on you though. Instead of enjoying and celebrating your D's triumphs, you allowed the sitch and how different it was from what you had always thought it would be cloud your experience.
That is one of the reasons that we are taught to detatch. My S has had so many achievements. Achievements that my X and I spent untold money and time helping our S work towards. The greatest one came this past winter. It could have been bittersweet because I was unable to celebrate it with his father like I always thought I might, but that was simply not a thought in my mind. When I received the call, I screamed and laughed and jumped for joy, shared the news with my BF, and then texted my X, then called both of my parents.
It wasn't MY achievement. Nor my X's achievement. It was my S's achievement and it was something I was able to enjoy for him. And I was able to be grateful that it was something I was able to assist him with.
It's ok to not enjoy your FIL. No one says you have to spend time with him. However, I wonder how much pressure you put on your W to not spend time with him, now and in the past.
Another fact of life, you don't have to like him. He is her father though and if she wants a relationship with him, that is on her.
One of my uncle in laws very much disliked his FIL. And that led to him never taking a family vacation with his W and children that involved FIL. He accepted that his W wanted a relationship with her father and he didn't and he chose not to allow it to be a point of contention in their M.
Matt, you need to find a way to deal with all of the negative emotions and thoughts you have. If you can't, even if your W comes out of her fog, she may feel that she made the right choice.
The people here posting to you, have all been in situations that are very similar to yours. We have all had those negative feelings. The disappointment. The confusion. The sense of loss, the anger, and the frustration.
The biggest difference is that many of them are on the other side now, or are working towards that other side. Where they have learned to identify and do more of what works for them and their lives and less of what doesn't so that they can be happy regardless of their marital status.
I suggest you think long and hard about what Mach posted to you. He has incredible insight. One thing he doesn't want for anyone that comes here is for them to remain stuck in the mire and muck. Regardless of what you might think at this point in time.
Good luck Matt.
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
Hi Matt. Couple of things, if I may. First of all, congrats on your d. You must be so proud.
So, I see you keep trying to understand your wife's actions. And the thing of it is, is that you cant because you arent in a life crisis.
Changing her mind, being selfish, seeming unfeeling, etc. is all part of that.
Now I always say that having a life crisis isnt a get out of jail free card. She is responsible for her actions. But it is a way to understand why she may be choosing those actions.
You cant make her feel a certain way. SHe feels how she does right now.
The sooner you can accept that she is in a deep tunnel of confusion, the sooner you can detach.
Detaching to me is this. Your actions or words are not based on hers.
When this began for me, I made myself a roadmap of how I wanted to live my life. I made myself three promises. I wanted to act with dignity and honor. I wanted to cause no harm to the relationship between my h and my son. I wanted to be able to look back on this time in my life and feel good about how I conducted myself.
With this roadmap, I was able to always know how to act. After awhile, I didnt have to even think about it. And no matter what my h was doing or saying, he couldnt knock me off my road.
Think about who you want to be. Be that person everyday, regardless of what your w is doing or saying. Some days you will make it, some you wont, but that should be the goal.
As far as your d and the school, I get how that is upsetting to you. So, you either have to make a plan on how you may be able to get her there or you have to have a hard talk with her. The reason is your wife is incapable of making any kind of committments now.
Regarding her dad. No matter what, he is her father. While I would not allow him to say anything bad to my son, I would have to accept who he is. I dont have to like it, but, I would have to accept it.
Matt, I would like to see you try to let go of trying to understand how you wife has changed. It is what is at the moment. It helps to just accept that you may not ever understand.
Things are difficult now. They will not always be.
Put the focus on you and your children and let your wife walk her journey. Lovingly let her go. You walk your own journey. Figure out Matt. What are some things you always wanted to do or try? A class you wanted to take, or a place you wanted to visit.
Let her go, Matt. You will feel so much better if you do.
I like this part:
Originally Posted By: Matt165
In a way it helps me see that it's more important than ever for me to build my life as if she no longer existed. To think how I would act and what I would do if say she just disappeared one day and work on doing those things.
And this part:
Originally Posted By: Matt165
All I can do is try to be the best parent I can be. To be a stable force in her life.
Thank you t2, cat and worthy. I do understand that it's totally up to my W if she wants to have a relationship with my FIL. If you knew all the evil things he has said and done over the years, the times he has made my daughters cry, the time I almost called child services but instead he just left, the times my wife has cried because of how he acted when she was depressed you would understand the problem I have with my W forcing him on my D's.
Tonight my D asked for my support to ask her mom not to bring him to her final chapel at her school. She will be presented with a bible and every teacher she has had over the years will talk about her and give a bible verse that they think best reflects my D. She knows this will be emotional and knows that her grandfather will find a way to insult her and ruin her day and I agree as this is what he has always done.
She talked to her mom with me there and her mother totally blew her off. She said she spoke with him telling him she was sensitive (she isn't) and he won't try and be funny like that. He is NOT being funny. He is insulting and my D isn't easily hurt and in fact is the opposite with everyone BUT him! Her exact words were she needed to "suck it up" because he wanted to come so he is. I pointed out it was her day not his but my W wouldn't listen and ended the talk. She then said that she better get used to him because she was going to spend a month with him this summer. I balked at that and said she didn't talk to me about it. My W said she had spoken to me "a long time ago" which had to have been more than a year since it sure wasn't since B-day! I think she just thinks she talked to me about it but never did.
This is the kind of thing I'm having a problem with. My oldest was relived that her GF didn't show for her grad and now my poor younger one is having a man she doesn't want near her forced on her as well. I will use legal means to stop her if she tries to force my D to go away and stay alone with that man 1000 miles away from me. In her desire to relive her teenage years this time with a dad who loves her and wants her she has lost the ability to see that she is alone in thinking this man has changed in any way because he hasn't. He is worse. The reason this is so important now is because I will protect my D's from this man and as of tomorrow he will be here for a week. I know there will be a confrontation because if my W won't listen to her D about something as important as her last chapel, she will definitely try to make her spend more time with him as well.
At ages 18 and 14 my D's have a right to not have to spend their time with anyone they don't wish to. If my 14 year old was just being a jerk with no real reason to act the way she is, that would be different. Before B-day it never was a problem because she didn't force her father on them. It's only since she has been talking to him and going away with him post b-day that she has done this.
I can see this coming to a head in the next couple days. It is going to ruin my last day with my parents tomorrow and I will draw a line in the sand at my kids having to be around this man when they do not want him to be. That's why I'm upset and a little overwhelmed right now. I hope things improve once we get past this time but I can see this bringing things to a head much sooner than if he would have just stayed away!
