Crimson.....good WILL come.

[Crimson]

2TH - I kinda got the same treatment when XW was thinking through the notion of coming back. I mean, she never had access to the HOUSE or my bathrobe or anything - but I would get voice notes on my phone and a lot more pictures and more kindness in general...we would go to church together and usually take S out to breakfast afterwards....and so on.

To answer your question - for the last month there has been no interaction really...a few drop-offs when we have to deal with each other and I can see her trying to talk and be normal, but I haven't really been too interested. I keep my responses EXTREMELY short and do no linger. A few days after the OM bomb she invited me to attend S's swimming lesson with her - I was like "WTF?!" and didn't respond. I have not responded to any of her text messages that are non life-threatening. So right now, we really don't have much of a relationship or any interactions.

Please do not worry too much about the weight loss. It literally is just a stress/anxiety reaction - it has happened before and I know how to manage it. I totally have my appetite back so I am fine. I have had an annual checkup within the last 6-8 months and I have no other health concerns.

GM - I don't think it was so much as she DIDN'T SEE kindness/goodness/generosity from me. As I look back on it, I think she saw it - but it just became an expectation on her end....not something that she was genuinely grateful for. Remember all of the times I let her have extra time away (and nearly everything else she wanted)? When I drew the line on that this past Christmas she LOST IT......she was p*ssed!

Please don't think I am obsessing and picking apart the "goodness" remark for 25. It just resonated with me, as noted, because I struggle with how to be. I am not trying to dissect it for some sort of meaning or course of action. I am doing my best to stay dark and keep the roped DROPPED. I have moments when I want to reach out or something...but they are immediately quelled and I move on.

Crimson

[Crimson]

Just to FURTHER clarify, at my appointment yesterday I weighed in at 225 with my clothes on. I am somewhere between 6'4" and 6'5".....so I don't look sickly right now or anything and I am eating well.

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks, 25 -

I hate to belabor or make requests of vets and other posters - but I am still wondering what you meant a few posts ago by "xw will see goodness in you". I have very, very much dropped the rope and gone dark. I do not reach out, and if it is not direly urgent (it rarely is) I do not respond. If I have sent more than 2 or 3 texts in the last month (all in response to her) I would be shocked. No hostility, just short and factual. How is goodness part of that?

So you're saying that if you were in Europe for a year and had no contact with her other than texts and notes, how would she ever see or realize you were a good man? Is that the question? Here are 3 possibilities and we'll use, for now, the "Crimson in Europe" scenario...(b/c we can later address whether you ought to increase contact, be around more, etc)

In the event that the only contact is the rare texts responding to her questions, specifically, how does that look like "goodness"?

1) to her, it may not. To HER, it's possible that nothing you do or say will make ANY difference. IF THAT IS TRUE, i.e., that nothing you do will change her view of you, then truly you must completely let go of caring b/c it literally makes no difference to HER. Thus, you'd be foolish and wasteful of your life trying to change a brick wall into a pool of water. IN any case, I'm sure you realize in this scenario, since nothing you do or say matters to HER, you can let it go, right? I mean for real, let it go.

2) OTHERWISE, how will she see the "goodness" in you? Here are some ways...

A) she would have to allow a positive memory to resurface, which you have no control over and reminders are immediately seen as manipulation. But more reminders are out there than you seem to realize...

B) She'd hear S3 say a positive about you, and concede it to him; perhaps even believing it...and or,

C) OM does or says something just like you did/said, OR in striking contrast to what you'd do or say and then, at that moment, you'll be shining.

Note that none of these^^ are within your control. And in most or all of these scenarios, you won't even know of it unless she tells you.

3) what you DO have control over is whether and how you speak to her or reach out.
Doing it rudely or insufficiently, will be seen as NOT good.

So it's up to you to find that balance, knowing that sometimes "balance" means swinging from one extreme to the other, til we figure out where exactly that middle ground is. Life gets us there if we are not stubborn.

I think not responding to her texts about son, is not good. I think choosing to wait a bit, is fine. I think if she texts a nasty or thoughtless comment, you ought to post here before responding or ask her to re-phrase so you're clear as to her intent. (Let's concede that on occasion, we LBSers do misinterpret things).

Escalating is not good, but rolling over for her has not re-ignited her ardor for you.

QUESTION: what kind of chemistry did you believe you two had? Was it mutual? Meaning, had she been with many OMs before you, did she tell you that you were "the one", how loving and passionate was the actual courtship?

B/C if you never felt she was your soulmate, and or if she never felt that way, it's a harder battle to fight.

I know for myself, that if I had not had several years of an enviable marriage (others commented on it and how well suited we were for each other and at least 3 couples said they wanted what 'we had" in our marriage)....

without those memories and the actual belief h and I were 'meant to be', I'd never have held in there for his MLC (still bristle at that term, but can't digress now...)

So tell us, what was it like when it was really good? To you, and as far as you know, to HER?


I did take son to make her something for Mother's Day (See previous post) - and it was painful, but I am trying to do the right thing and teach him to honor, love and respect his mother (did I mention that was effing hard?).

It was the right thing to do. Even while H was gone, I forced our kids to send him something...and it was painful for ALL of us. (And it arrived late - and h whined!!
That was then, this is now...)

I have just been wondering that from you, 25. Wondering if there is a line of site to goodness in me and/or if at least ONE positive memory or emotion will ever resurface in the shadow of OM. Not that it MEANS anything.

Crimson

I think in your wife's case the memories, if they exist (meaning if the marriage was ever satisfying to HER, outside of having son together), then I cannot imagine her successfully repressing them forever. Why would she?

Oh, b/c it may mean she goofed? No, she can say "once upon a time it was nice but then Crimson changed" and as the evidence of your evil ways evaporates, it will be harder to keep claiming.

So her story will change to "we grew apart" and though that sounds hollow, it will probably haunt her most, when s3 speaks about you. Or a song reminds her of a good time, or a place or an activity, and there are far more of them, than you realize.

Mostly, my advice is that by just not being a jerk, you'll have to hope that the good things we all see here, will manifestly be clear, to a reasonable person.

If that is not her, then maybe she's not the one for you anyhow.

Crimson, Have you ever really conceded that perhaps her "function" in your life, was to make s3 with you, and maybe not a lot else?

I'm just spitballing, but had to ask...

You once said the fertility problem you two had was "mostly" yours. That's unusual but if it's true, then just be glad you met her and had him. Sure, it'd be nice if you had another one with her and you two could have done that and MAYBE that's on you.

MAYBE....but I get the strong impression that the growth you've done would not have occurred b/c the divorce would have been delayed but still happen, and you'd have 2 kids to miss instead of one. Not the worst or best thing in the world, but beyond 2 minutes of wondering, I would not give that a lot of space in my head or heart.

Hope this helps. Bottom line is you don't control much of this. You have to trust that we get you, and that what we see is real. And a reasonable woman would see it too, in time.

If we are right, and if she does not see it or admit it, then ask yourself those other questions, like maybe someone else, some OW is out there, for YOU....b/c that's what we see.

I hold out the hope that your ex wife will get to know OM and at some point will have to see his flaws. He cannot have ALL of and ONLY your same flaws. Surely he'll have one or two that are his own, and that contrasts with YOU. It's just true.

No way will he have the same effect on s3, that you have. She gets to see and hear that too. Those are things not in your control, but which are realistic.

So, anyhow, back to YOU, how are the GAL GOING?

[Crimson]

25, I get a lot of what you are saying - in some ways it is very much in synch with others and in some ways it offers a somewhat stark juxtaposition of ideas (kinda). With regard to contact in general, again - there really isn't any. She is bright and chipper during the exchanges and I am not......not that I am a jerk or mean to her - I just don't really offer much up. Which, to her, probably is read as me being a jerk. A lot of the feedback that I get is "who cares what she thinks of you?" -- and I actually get THAT too. At this point, to what extent does it really matter what she thinks of me? It could be argued that I went several miles beyond the last mile with her and been a pretty decent, thoughtful ex -- and, I have definitely made some important changes - and she either hasn't seen it or it landed with a massive, massive thud....oh, and an OM. So really, what has goodness brought about? Other than, of course, the knowledge that I took the high road and did what I felt was right at the time - which should be self-evident enough as "good" if only in my own eyes. The facts here, above, are what have pushed me to drop the rope, go dark....whatever you want to call it...but that is where I am. And then, you give me this to think about:

3) what you DO have control over is whether and how you speak to her or reach out.
Doing it rudely or insufficiently, will be seen as NOT good.

So it's up to you to find that balance, knowing that sometimes "balance" means swinging from one extreme to the other, til we figure out where exactly that middle ground is. Life gets us there if we are not stubborn.

I think not responding to her texts about son, is not good. I think choosing to wait a bit, is fine. I think if she texts a nasty or thoughtless comment, you ought to post here before responding or ask her to re-phrase so you're clear as to her intent. (Let's concede that on occasion, we LBSers do misinterpret things).

Escalating is not good, but rolling over for her has not re-ignited her ardor for you"

So is going dark a particularly bad thing? I keep going back to my first DB lessons and the concept of "more of the same" keeps hitting me. And withdrawing (I know this) is exactly what she would expect of me in this situation and would see it as "more of the same". But then again, I ask (and am ASKED) what does her opinion of me matter at this point?

So far very little of her communication has been about S, with maybe the exception of the invite to his swimming lesson - so I have said nothing back.

With regard to your comments about son making comments about me....I do get this a lot: "Does he ever mention me? Because he talks about you ALL THE TIME." - And the answer is "no" -- he really doesn't talk too much about her.

To answer your question, our dynamic and chemistry developed and grew into something wonderful - IMO, of course. In the beginning of our dating relationship I was very, very slow to show a lot of signs of "yep, you're the one" - but over time, I knew....I just knew. I needed her, she needed me - and together we we complimented each other. Until the one day I was sitting in my office and it just hit me....I am going to ask her to marry me. I bought a ring a few days later, called her father for his blessing, and asked her...it felt right. I won't go in to the guts of it, but I think that a lot of the chemistry and affection got battered during the infertility process. When sex becomes a chore or something that is dictated by a fertility monitor, the romance, spontaneity and passion is killed. Multiply that by three years. It takes a toll. And part of me believes that somewhere in the bitter fog of that process I started losing her. It was not a fun time, and once the euphoria of the baby wore off (18 months), she was out. All good...all positive memories....gone.

A few weeks ago I deleted all of her pictures....all of our wedding pictures, all of the pictures of us together with the baby. All of the pictures for the time we spent dating....trips, parties, vacations....gone. And in that process I realized how many good times there were over the years - and with a few clicks of a mouse they were gone. I always struggle with exactly how all of those things were just deleted from her memory just as easily.

I guess that is a long way of me saying that yes, there were some great times - 25....great memories. We meant a lot to each other at one point and she always told me how grateful she was for me to be in her life....and how different I was from the OMs that had been in her life before me. She seemed sincere at the time, and I believed her.

Hope that answers what you were looking for.

Crimson

[Crimson]

GAL ----> I'm considering scuba lessons.

[25yearsmlc]

GAL ----> I'm considering scuba lessons.

Stop considering. Start DOING.

Begin something new. Do or arrange it, this week.

More later...

(((( ))))

[Crimson]

So last night XW's best friend (known each other 20 years...all the way back to IA) called me. X hasn't communicated with her since December....they had a misunderstanding and she basically cut her out out of her life after 20 years and her friend didn't know why. XW had actually told me about it a few months ago and her friend was asking me for clarity and XW's side of the story. I tired to help her out without giving too much -- but long story short, friend said she feels like she was cut out of XWs life without warning or explanation. I understood.

So her friend went on to give me some insight on things that I really didn't have. I guess in her 20 years of knowing her she has seen her go through a lot of hard times and relationships with men other than me. Her take is that this is kind of a reaction relationship. Meaning that she had been on her own so long that she just wanted/needed attention in a way - friend said that she had seen it before with her and the guys are always kind of in the "really? him? why?" category. She also said that X had confided in her at some point after she had been on her own for awhile after the D that she just wanted to find someone and was basically feeling alone. She also said that at some point X told her that she didn't know how to be a wife or married because it was never modeled for her in her childhood - all she had as a reference was movies and film. I found that interesting because there is a paragraph or two in DR that talks about that. Anyway, it was interesting to hear - all of it, actually. It doesn't change anything at all -- but sometimes getting the perspective of someone that is familiar and has a long history is helpful in terms getting a deeper understanding. I'll say it again....it does not change anything. And at a bare minimum it was nice to talk to an old friend that I kind of lost in the D.

OK OK OK 25 -- I will do the scuba lessons! I'll keep you posted!

[2ndTimeHurt]

Scuba'ing sounds fun man. Good luck with that!!

[25yearsmlc]

H and our youngest, D16 did Scuba together. The day she qualified for deep sea diving was a rough one on the water. She usually doesn't have a queasy stomach, but that day they ALL had a problem...and I mean, the whole dealio, she was sick as a dog.

But dang if she didn't finish getting sick over the edge of the boat, when she just put her gear back on her face and went back in to qualify. They saw lobsters and huge fish under water. I had my broken leg on shore whining to myself...

Anyhow, I think it sounds wonderful and you'll meet some new people who do NOT know your xw....yay

Oh, and to recap, so the essence of what your xw said to her x friend (weird in itself b/c I have only "dropped" 2 friends I can think of, in my half century long life).

One friend became such an abusive alcoholic ranting, (which we'd both grown up with), that I could not take his calls anymore. However, I sure miss how he was when we were young, and having a male buddy I could totally trust, but he admits that he "became" his father and that's just NOT okay in my adult life.
Not when I have children too.

And the other dropped friend was not very close but she was a single childless friend. One evening she came over and honest to God she was mean to my son when he was little. He was about 3. Then & to this day, if you are outright mean to my child, we're done. But that is very rare. Speaking of which...

Maybe what your x really has not seen in life or film, is Forgiveness. And if you have never seen it, you won't know what it looks like OR how to do it.

That's what church and priest/ministers are for, imo. But to me that is the main thing she did not see growing up.

Oh to be sure, you're right about how Hollywood presents marriages in films...unrealistic expectations and lots of divorce!!

But shoot, Hollywood does not even try to present forgiveness in films...who does?

Outside of religion, I cannot think of any entity that does. Maybe that's a societal thing we'll all tackle next week.

[25yearsmlc]

PS

not sure why the title of this thread got changed but I guess I did it...wacky.

Sorry.