[SemperFi00]

Well - like I said, I am not all that familiar with your specific dynamics but here is what I saw:

She told you the night before that she wanted to go to church at 8am. You woke up at 6 to take care of the dog but then spent the next hour and half puttering around the yard. It might have been more appropriate to head back inside a little earlier and start getting the kids ready to go. Perhaps if there's an issue with 'kid prep' duties in your dynamic, you could have woken them up/gotten them ready with her. If she hadn't called down to you at 730, would you have even noticed what time it was?

It just struck me that she may have felt ignored or her wants marginalized. Regardless of whether the routine of not getting ready in time and going later is the norm, she said she wanted to go at 8 so why not do what you need to do to make that happen?

Thanks for the 2x4 Dingo! I would guess that is also what labug was seeing in the situation.

I can see that also and it may be insightful into comments she made about "finding her voice" and losing herself in the M.

Very insightful - especially for not being that familiar with my scenario!

[SemperFi00]

I'm with Dingo.

We can't read her mind but that's what I would have been thinking. And as gogofo's W told him, "there was never one big issue or event, it was multiple little things that piled up over time."

In an honest, healthy R, she would have told you what she needed but you haven't had a healthy R in a long time. She's done, you're the one who wants to turn things around if possible.

So you have to do the work.

ouch! and thank you.... especially for the reminder in the last part above.

And I thought I was being nice by getting up and going outside with the dog so that she could rest more...... she's usually the one that gets up first.....

Funny thing is I actually had the thought 1x while outside about coming in and asking her if she wanted to keep sleeping or get everyone up and going - guess I should have listened to that voice!

How might you handle things differently the next time she says she wants to go to church at 0800?

This gets back to that divide of responsibilities in your household. She's no longer happy with that set-up. How can you show her you're hearing her and understand and that things could be different?

I think in some areas I have been doing this (doing more laundry, cleaning, being more patient with older boys, doing more w/S8, bring Christmas decoration down 1 box at a time, more active listening when she is talking, making sure that I am ready on time for things, etc....) but clearly blew it in this example.

Next opportunity for the 8a start I will just get up and start the process of getting everything started - I know that her preference is to always go at 8a.

Truth be told, I am not even sure she would go if it wasn't for me and the boys - but that's really mindreading and another story.

What might you say to her now to find out what she needs from you in those situations?

May need a bit of help with this one since right now W seems to be only interested in discussing logistical items. Later Sunday evening I tried to ask her about the morning and she cut me off mid-sentence saying it is not a big deal. Tone very much indicated she did not want to talk about it further....

[ces67]

"May need a bit of help with this one since right now W seems to be only interested in discussing logistical items. Later Sunday evening I tried to ask her about the morning and she cut me off mid-sentence saying it is not a big deal. Tone very much indicated she did not want to talk about it further...."

Maybe the work for you here is figuring out what your 180 is and doing it? I've lived that scenario many times over the past 4 years. Body language & tone clearly do not match the words of "its not a big deal".

Just a suggestion to consider. Even if she's not willing to talk about it, maybe you can still say what you need to say. Even if its not a big deal to her, let her know it is a big deal to you and why (maybe because you care about her?). What if you just stated your view of how you look back on the morning and what you wish you'd done differently. Don't expect any response or support, but it may be a small way to show your trying to learn her and then follow it up with a changed behavior. Little items like this over and over. And don't assume it will be the same item over and over. Also, keep the wording on your own thoughts and behaviors and away from hers. This is your learning process.

It still may not work (and I can attest to that) but it may help you become more of who you want to be.

[SemperFi00]

"May need a bit of help with this one since right now W seems to be only interested in discussing logistical items. Later Sunday evening I tried to ask her about the morning and she cut me off mid-sentence saying it is not a big deal. Tone very much indicated she did not want to talk about it further...."

Maybe the work for you here is figuring out what your 180 is and doing it? I've lived that scenario many times over the past 4 years. Body language & tone clearly do not match the words of "its not a big deal".

My initial 180 was to focus on letting her own her own reactions/feelings and not chasing her around bugging her all day about what was wrong and trying to fix it for her.

Used to be very guilty of taking on responsibility for her moods and trying to make sure that she never had anything bad going on in her life.

One of the things that she shared a couple of year ago when we were seeing someone together was that this made her feel put up on a pededstal and she couldn't handle that.

Still don't quite understand ^^^^ but have certainly learned that I cannot solve everything for her and am not completely responsible for her feelings and decisions. I was trying to do everything I could (over doing in many cases) to ensure that her life was perfect and this added pressure for her.

Just a suggestion to consider. Even if she's not willing to talk about it, maybe you can still say what you need to say. Even if its not a big deal to her, let her know it is a big deal to you and why (maybe because you care about her?). What if you just stated your view of how you look back on the morning and what you wish you'd done differently. Don't expect any response or support, but it may be a small way to show your trying to learn her and then follow it up with a changed behavior. Little items like this over and over. And don't assume it will be the same item over and over. Also, keep the wording on your own thoughts and behaviors and away from hers. This is your learning process.

It still may not work (and I can attest to that) but it may help you become more of who you want to be.

I like this suggestion ces. Thanks for the response.

When the time is right maybe starting with something like "... I know that you may not want to have a long discussion about it but I have realized that there is something that I could have done differently Sun morning and if the opportunity is there again I will handle it differently."

Then STFU, no expecations and leave it at that unless W pushes further.

Thoughts?

[SemperFi00]

Jounaling……

Trying to not miss the small – but normal and important things………….

- Came home from work last night – S8 & S18 were playing on trampoline together. S8 was being very loud – in a happy way. Stood and watched for minute and then joined them for 15-20 minutes and it was silly but also very enjoyable
- Last night passed S16 and W on the way home and stopped to give them gift card I had to use for new shoes for S16. He literally got out of the truck and came over to give me a hug and a kiss. I suppose cynically I could think that he only did it because I was giving him $$$ - but he also does it at other times too. How nice is it that can still happen even at his age??
- W has been filling in for someone at work the last 2 weeks so I have had morning routine duty all to myself. This morning S8 wanted me to sit and watch TV with him so I took 10-15 mins to do that versus sending a couple of emails, etc….. It was nice.
- Remembered last night two small things from W on Sunday – when I was leaving the house she actually asked where I was headed off to (different than showing no interest) and later in the evening said my recent haircut looked nice.

Just getting this out there (mostly for me) to help reinforce some of the positive things going on – even amidst some of the turmoil. Not exactly where I would like things to be but not all bad – and I certainly cannot be a complete ogre and have those types of reactions from kids.

Stay strong!

[soldier]

Hey SemperFi00,

It never stops amazing me how well journaling on these forums works. There is something nice knowing that what I write will not fall on deaf or non-sympathetic ears and that it will most likely be read. I am glad you are finding it easier to notice the small things and it sounds like you are really seeing what is most important in your life right now.

Keep it up. I heard this from a song many years ago and it always kind of stuck with me but “the race is long and, in the end, it’s only with yourself”.

[labug]

ces is so right, what you do may have no effect on her, at least not at a perceivable level. But, you never know. She may truly be gone or just a little lost.

The important thing here is you finding your voice, your balance. It seems to me that you've tried to avoid conflict and keep the family balanced (whether you needed to or not) for so long that you, too, are a little lost.

When the time is right maybe starting with something like "... I know that you may not want to have a long discussion about it but I have realized that there is something that I could have done differently Sun morning and if the opportunity is there again I will handle it differently."

I took out the first part of your sentence because it's mindreading/putting words in her mouth. Saying that will almost surely put her on the defensive. Keep the focus on you, "I realize that I could have gotten the boys moving on Sunday morning. I will do that the next Sunday."

Her reaction doesn't matter so much as is this doing something you think is the right thing to do? Is this being the man you want to be?

Just something else to think about-her anger. None of us deserve the yelling and cursing. The next time this happens could you say, calmly "I feel your anger. What can I do to help you right now?" And then listen, without judgment. Don't debate, don't deny, don't defend. She may not say anything but you've changed the dynamic a bit.

There's an old (1986 but still in print) book, The Dance of Anger which may be helpful to you in understanding your W's anger. It may not. It just came to me as I was writing this. It helped me understand my anger and my destructive responses. Dance of Connection is also good.

[SemperFi00]

The important thing here is you finding your voice, your balance. It seems to me that you've tried to avoid conflict and keep the family balanced (whether you needed to or not) for so long that you, too, are a little lost.

I think that this is very accurate and insightful. I have spend a great deal of time trying to give W and kids the "perfect" life - no conflict, everything they could want, no having to work too hard for anything, etc....

What I wonder about now is that even I could do that for the kids - how long could I do it for? and is that setting them up for a big fall when they get out in the real world?

Wonder also if this in some way contributed to W feeling like she was on a pedestal? She had stated that she felt so much pressure almost as if she could never have a bad moment or day w/o it having such an impact on everyone else.....

When the time is right maybe starting with something like "... I know that you may not want to have a long discussion about it but I have realized that there is something that I could have done differently Sun morning and if the opportunity is there again I will handle it differently."

I took out the first part of your sentence because it's mindreading/putting words in her mouth. Saying that will almost surely put her on the defensive. Keep the focus on you, "I realize that I could have gotten the boys moving on Sunday morning. I will do that the next Sunday."

Her reaction doesn't matter so much as is this doing something you think is the right thing to do? Is this being the man you want to be?

Yes, it is. Although it certainly seems like it would easier if it was reciprocal - but that's why Db'ing and healthy relationships are not for the faint of heart...... In the end I am a better person for having gone through this and made the necessary improvements.

I went back last night and reviewed the goals I originally set and I think there has been quite a bit of positive change since the beginning. Still times like Sun where things could be handled better but that's why it is lifelong process, right???

Just something else to think about-her anger. None of us deserve the yelling and cursing. The next time this happens could you say, calmly "I feel your anger. What can I do to help you right now?" And then listen, without judgment. Don't debate, don't deny, don't defend. She may not say anything but you've changed the dynamic a bit.

I like this and will try it the next time. Certainly seems hard to envision a scenario where that wouldn't help diffuse things a bit.

Thanks for the comments labug, ces and soldier.

[SemperFi00]

holy cr@p!!! Maybe just had a really insightful moment re: how W may have felt.

Was watching a video of Brene Brown talking about shame and a "move the body friend" - btw, thanks to whoever posted that here.

Maybe my high expectations for myself, W and kids contributed to a situation where W felt like she couldn't share things or some of her comments related to not being able to have a bad day or feeling like she was on a pedestal that was tough to live up to.....

Almost started crying in my office at work - and that is certainly not my normal style......

If so, certainly not intentional and not the type of S, friend, father I want to be......... Wonder if I was creating a perception of being more judgmental than I really meant to be.....

And if so, how can I possibly convey this to W who seems to want to not be engaged or connected........

[Roberta]

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