Have I any hope...?

[25yearsmlc]

I've no idea why she asked it but I just said, that I've been out with a few friends just having a good time with them.

Typically, the WAW needs to know that you are still around as a fallback in case her experimental new life situations don't work out for her. If you get too comfortable on your own, she may get nervous.

To me, this^^ is ALL more mind reading. If she asks where you are going, this is an OPPORTUNITY to show the GAL without pointing it out. You can keep some mystery but don't be rude. It's NOT a bad sign that she asked, it might be positive, it might mean nothing. So don't give it a thought. But never be rude or curt or point out the obvious "I don't know where YOU are going and therefore you don't get to know where I am going"...sounds petty and punitive.

Also, it's NOT your job to "show her the consequences" of her choices OR to "teach her a lesson". LIFE does that. It's not a spouses job to be a therapist either, but yes we are to be their friends...not buddies, I mean when together you should be a friend.

Another thing my DB coach said that freaked me out at first, was to "listen like a lover" as in NO judgement and no advice...validate and show concern. It works. And in the end, DBing is about doing what works.

Your answer was perfect. Keep some mystery there, after all, it's you enjoying your life and she has chosen to remove herself from that for now. Your objective is to make yourself understand (very hard, and will take work on yourself) that you will be able to survive without W. When you have convinced yourself, she will also detect that, and may sense some loss.

I don't think you're "wrong" to go over there if she has a phobia about spiders. Obviously it can't be a habit but one visit, does not a habit make.

Besides, Would you prefer she ask someone else? (That IS an option you may Not want her to consider, after all)....

but I can't see backing out now and not looking unreliable. So go, but either treat it light heartedly with some humor (and your d is watching too, so let her see you as a hero. But with a sense of humor...and note, How our children see their fathers DEFINITELY affects how mothers see them.)

OR maybe buy her one of those clear "bug catchers" that [censored] them up and then she can empty the bug/spiders into a toilet. When my h left me with our d's still at home, WE had one, thank God b/c we USED that a lot. I think we got it at Bed/Bath & Beyond...(I need another one for when h isn't around b/c ours broke...probably from over use).

Do you feel clearer about your path? And btw, if I recall correctly, one thing you two were missing was couple time and you both worked at odd "missing each other" hours...did I get that right? It's easy to confuse other situations but when you put info into your signature block, it really helps us recall in just two seconds...

Assuming that was the main issue, then you need to demonstrate having MORE "free for fun" time now. A schedule change at work, and or, the more you do something with your friends OR NEW Friends are great to have now, no one reminds you of your situation and you get stimulated in different ways and it brings out other qualities in you too...ALSO do things with your d, one on one with her)...the more you spend time with your d, the better for you both AND the more your w will note that you made an actual tangible change...for the better.

Sign up for a class one night a week or one weekend a month. Volunteer somewhere, DO SOMETHING NEW and different...it will show change on your end.
Say nothing of it, UNLESS your w asks. Then be brief and answer her, and move along to another topic so it won't look as if you are watching for her reaction. Plus, she'll need time to ponder what these things mean. HER FEAR is that if you two reconcile, you will revert to the old ways. Don't gloss over that fear...it's crucial for her to eventually trust that your changes are real and lasting.

As for counseling, of course YOU should be going. For YOU....and yes, She'll notice that YOU went, regardless of whether she is.
Not to mention that she may be getting some counseling and not telling you yet. But Good grief..SHE is not relevant to what you want to work on. Do you get that?

You want to be the best man you can be...how is SHE related to that? She's not. She will be an indirect beneficiary of your improvements, and if you reconcile she'll be a direct beneficiary...but it's NOT about her. It's only about you.

I went to counseling a lot more than my h did... thank GOD I did or I would not have made it. My DB coach was also a Godsend.

So I had my own IC, plus a DB coach (about 15 sessions with her, btw, so it wasn't a one time deal, but a lot of changing my views, over more than a year)...

and I attended a personal growth workshop that I had been to decades earlier for a "refresher course"... and that was SO EXCELLENT, (several other DBers have attended it as well and so far ALL have given it great reviews. Calling it 'life changing" is not an exaggeration.

So anyhow, then when we began piecing, we both attended Retrovaille, which is a weekend retreat for couples in marital crisis. The Catholic church started it, but you do not have to be Catholic to attend (my h isn't) and they have interdenominational ones and there was NO doctrine or "Catholic dogma" in our workshop at all. "Team" Couples told us their stories of their marital woes and most of them had such horrific problems that ours paled in comparison (such as losing a child or facing cancer AND an affair, etc.) They were inspiring.

You may be able to get your w to attend that, "for communication purposes" or to "make things easier on the child", and although it's a bit of a ruse to get her there, it won't hurt. Seriously, it's a good retreat weekend, no matter who you are.

Retrovaille has an impressive record for helping troubled marriages. We went with 24 other couples, 8 of whom were already in the process of divorcing, when they attended. Others were like us, either separated, and or strongly considering ending our marriages.

After 3-4 years, I think 19-20 of the couples are still together, out of 25. Considering how troubled we ALL were when we went, that's pretty remarkable.

The personal growth workshop I attended years ago, and then again more recently, is in Philadelphia now. It used to be on the west coast too, but anyhow, it helps

YOU grow/improve individually and obviously that makes you a better parent, better partner, better worker, better person as a whole. It gives you a lot of clarity and a path towards your goals.

When I first went many years ago, I went without my h. At the time it was mainly b/c we were not sure "we" would like it or that it would be worth it, since it cost money and my h was reluctant, so I went first.

Well, Thank GOD I went alone b/c I had issues with my MIL i would not have raised if my h had been there, among other private matters I would not have shared in front of him....anyhow, I think it's inhibiting to go with a spouse to EE, but I got so much out of it, that h saw this, so HE went a few months later, by himself!

That was not typical of h, at all (we were both in the military and "touchy feely" things did not get discussed much. My boss thought it was hilarious, but he was in reality very supportive).

Anyhow, h saw the changes in me and that made him want to go. (Kind of like how we want your wife to notice YOUR changes, but without you mentioning a tactic you are trying)...just real change.

My h called me during that workshop weekend when he went, and said that the workshop "was the best gift [he] had ever gotten"...

Then later on, we went together, to help the new participants.

That long workshop weekend when we were together there, bonded us so much, so deeply, that even decades later, it was how close we felt THEN, how deeply bonded we felt THEN, that motivated me to DB for so long. I knew we had "it" within us to be that close again...

(BTW, IF you are interested, check out "Essential Experience" in Philadelphia, aka "EE".
It's not Landmark and it's NOT EST, both of which I have attended also. EE was for me, the most profound individual growth experience I've ever had, next to becoming a parent. And I'm a better mother for it, as well. Since many people have gotten lots out of Landmark and or EST, I won't criticize those experiences, or discredit them. I will simply say that for me, Essential Experience was deeper, more profoundly changing, and it did not focus on recruitment.

(Also it's cheaper. OMG considering that I've gone back several times now as a "team" member, basically getting refresher "courses" at no cost, it's very cheap. Over the years that has added up to about 10 long weekends, but only the first one cost me anything. Wow, I just realized that).

Anyhow, I am grateful we had all these resources. And a bit proud of my efforts at utilizing them.

What else are you working on for YOU to become the man you always wanted to become?