• Separated December 2012 on holiday in country where we were both raised (in a different hemisphere from where we were working/living)
• WAW saying “It’s over and you can’t convince me otherwise.” March 2013. She request 3 months no contact to make this decision.
• I went back to country we were living, quit my job, packed the flat returned to my immediate family April 2014
• Have been working on myself since. Kept my old job for a further 3 months as a consultant. Found new job – which is far less stressful, but I’m also increasingly struggling with not being extended or overly valued. I am actively looking for new work, but the reason we left this country is that the employment options, especially for me, are less.
• I see my D2 for Friday evening, Saturday and Sunday morning each fortnight. I miss her terribly and her company makes me feel like there’s a point to my life. I feel very guilty for what has happened as it impacts her.
• I have DBing since Feb 2014. I find it hard, but it helps. I feel like I'm increasingly in a healthy place to deal with my situation. I have had very limited opportunity of contact with my W. I really want to improve my relationship with her, including to co-parent our daughter. At present, W is not interested at all in extending my time or working on our relationship. I’ve not wanted to upset W or D2, but I am struggling with how to increase the time I have with D2.
I believe W lost her love for me primarily due to:
(a) my verbally and emotionally abusive behaviour to her, which had become more pronounced over time and more threatening. I believe it came from some unhealthy thinking patterns I had that I never addressed. Our disagreements would often escalate into really horrible and exhausting interactions and even if I had a legitimate point, that would be lost due to my approach.
(b) her disconnect from some hard-to-believe “rotten” beliefs that were behind a lot of my anger and verbally abusive behaviour. For example: I got angry when my wife didn’t take good photos. Belief: “Things must go my way. My opinion on photos is absolute.” I also got angry with my family who I felt never supported me enough financially. Belief: I am ‘owed’ and ungrateful.
(a) and (b) got worse because:
(i) I didn’t put the effort in to address them myself, even though the attitudes and behaviour were making me miserable too. Unfortunately, it took W walking out for me to really address this. I see her walking out as understandable and brave.
(ii) We didn’t discuss the difficulties we had in peace times. After a fight, we would make up and forget about the boundaries that had been crossed. That played a role to corrode my respectful attitude to my W and increase my sense of entitlement. I think we both knew that there were damaging features about how we disagreed, but we didn't talk about it. Sometimes I experienced it as a form of self-sabotage, but I did reflect enough/work to take it out of my life. Sadly, we did not raise these issues with a councillor/family either. I think we were too proud and scared and the problems got worse. Everyone close to us was shocked when W walked. I was shocked too, which shows you how much denial I was in.
(iii) We both had very demanding jobs and spent long times during the week apart. Often W would get home after midnight and leave before 8 am. I was often overseas for weeks. I was lonely and unhappy with some parts of life we had created. Again, I really struggled to identify this and talk about it with W appropriately. We had some time together at the weekend and it was often scrappy and strained. We became “unfit” at communicating. We knew very little about each other’s challenges. Generally, our relationship focused on financial goals at the expense of broader life goals such as happiness, kindness, intimacy. Our relationship wasn't a hedge fund, but it took too long to see that. In 2012 I checked out emotionally (not consciously) and this exacerbated our ability to talk.
W is the love of my life and despite my actions in the past which show I lack of respect and love - I do respect and love her completely. I have faced up to my behaviours and their motivations. I done a lot of reading, I have attended courses with men who have had violence problems (my problems weren’t physical violence, but I see it as a spectrum and the course was very helpful). I have made a full apology to W in writing. I have supported and provided much financial support for my W’s life since December 2012. I've also joined a gym and basically transformed my fitness and physical health. Well, transformed may be dramatic, but I'm feeling much happier physically.
My family and friends are amazed at my personal progress since December 2012. My mother thought I was on the cusp of a nervous breakdown when we arrived back for our holiday.
I don’t want to lose my W, but I know that is not wholly in my control and I am prepared for a marathon. I also would like to see D2 more, but I’m not sure what to do about that. Just this week I raised the concept with W and she had an allegic relation. I've been very good with my D2 at all times we have together.
Thanks, Buddy
• Married 8 years and together for 11 • Baby daughter born in March 2012 • Physically separated from December 2012 • WAW saying “It’s over and you can’t convince me otherwise.” March 2013.
You have been a member here since 05/22/13 and made a few posts with your sich but never your own thread.
Originally Posted By: Buddy
I also would like to see D2 more, but I’m not sure what to do about that. Just this week I raised the concept with W and she had an allegic relation. I've been very good with my D2 at all times we have together.
I think the key to your success will be to continue to be the BEST DAD that you can be.
I think that is quite attractive and what you will want for your D2 and what she gets from life moving forward.
Buddy, sorry you are here. Your post reads like you have a lot more self awareness today than you did the day before BD. Keep working on you and you'll be set up for success in the future with or without W.
I'm interested in the courses you took. I'm not sure where you live, I'm in the US, and about to start a program voluntarily whose participants are usually there from a court order. How did it help you? Does W know you took them?
As far as the D2, have you consulted a L? Knowledge on options is worth the price, and given W's reaction to your request, an absolute necessity.
me: 45 W:45 M 20 years T 22 years S14, S13, S11, D9 BD 2/28/14 D papers served 3/3/14 I moved out 3/15/14 MC start 4/2/14 I moved in 6/2/14 D suit withdrawn 6/30/14
Thanks Cadet and Nettles. I’ve been a reader for a time and have found solace in these forums. I’m not a perfect student of DBing, but I try to be.
I’m not in the US. I live in New Zealand now - where I was raised (born in UK) and W was born and raised. The course was a domestic violence course for men. The centre ran one for women too. I was motivated to be in an instructive environment verses counselling, which I had for several months after BD. I was worried that counselling wasn’t providing a normative view on my attitudes and it might work to help me to justify/excuse... minimise - things that I didn’t like about myself. I wanted some 2 X 4s!
At first, I was very nervous about attending. I had to rush there from work so I would be always wearing a suit. No one else had a suit. Only a couple of others were voluntary attendees (and I was worried that would be held against us). Several of the men were really angry, tortured souls and they scared me. Nevertheless, I kept going and found it to be a really useful experience for me. The leaders were lovely, caring people. The rest of the group all helped me too, just by being honest about their problems. I didn’t feel as alone or that the my situation/defective thinking and behaviour was unfixable.
When the course ended, I formed a friendly relationship outside of the forum with one chap who gave a particularly honest and moving leaving speech. (At the end of the 4 months programme you read an apology to your “victim”.) However, I stopped seeing him after several one-on-one meetings as he kept trying to convince me to accept that the marriage was over and move on. I found this irked me. Post BD is a personal journey and you’ve to move at your own pace. A year since BD and I’m not ready at all to have another relationship. Perhaps I’m a slow mover, but I’m being honest to myself and situation. Despite the course, he also continued to blame his WAW for his pain whereas I try to avoid blaming & just acknowledge/feel the pain and try to GAL/move on positively. Blaming/resenting it’s like junk food. It's what I used to do when things didn't go my way. Temporary high; longer term problem. I’m trying much more to “suck up” daily frustrations, and over time, I have less to even suck up. (I’d say to myself ‘suck it up for Jes*s’ lol)
I absorbed a lot on the course and I might post some of the content on this threat in case it’s useful. My W knows I took the course. She knows I’m sorry and trying. There have been baby-steps to a better place since BD, and that’s crucial for me – because even if we don’t get back together, I want a good relationship with her for D2 (& because I will always have love and respect for W).
I really really want to be the BEST DAD I can. D2 is an absolute angel and I feel such intense feelings of love for her. Sometimes I have struggled to know whether what I am doing now (being in the same country; less well paid job) is more important that being in another country with a more well paid job on the basis that I’d be better placed to pay for things in her life. Deep down, I know that I don’t want to leave her.
I’m not sure where I stand on lawyers yet, Nettles. My hope is that I can progress things incrementally with the W at this stage.
Thanks for sharing about the program Buddy. Even though we are in different countries, the objectives of the program sound similar. The US program is even the same amount of time!
That is great that you want to be the best dad you can. I don't know your situation like you do, but having 4 kids, I find that they would much rather have me around and providing love and guidance than just stuff from me.
And again I don't know your situation like you do, but you wrote 'WAW saying “It’s over and you can’t convince me otherwise.”' and 'I also would like to see D2 more'. I'd think a consultative meeting with a L would be the best way to protect yourself. Can it be done without W finding out?
me: 45 W:45 M 20 years T 22 years S14, S13, S11, D9 BD 2/28/14 D papers served 3/3/14 I moved out 3/15/14 MC start 4/2/14 I moved in 6/2/14 D suit withdrawn 6/30/14
Thanks for the comments Nettles. I feel guilty/insecure about my ability to provide for D2 as I want the best for her. This insecurity was a motivation for prioritising career over relationships before, and that didn’t work out well for me. I want to work towards prioritising relationships over career, or at least have a more satisfying balance.
There’s also denial. It’s hard being separated, new country, new job, being a single father – so many changes and I find myself in a situation I’d not planned for. At times, I hurt so much that I feel like getting back on the plane and leaving this all behind. I know that my WAW probably would like me to do that too – right now. She’s said that she would support me working overseas with D2 – no details about what that would mean. Practically, it would mean seeing D2 even less than once every 2 weeks.
I can W wants as little to do with me as possible. My parents also want me to consider leaving, I guess they don’t like seeing me in so much pain, and have less hope than me about improving things with W. But I don’t feel that’s right for me. I want to be a loving father and support D2 as best as I can. I also want to support W – and be compassionate and kind to her – even if we don’t get back together. My feelings are that even if no romance could happen again - a friendly co-parenting relationship would be ideal for D2 and me and W. This seems responsible and right to me.
This last week, I’ve rocked the boat with WAW by asking for more time with D2. It’s very sad to see that she is still very untrusting and fearful. It’s like anything I say that is will cause her difficulty is because I am playing “power games” or “controlling” or “minimising her ‘view’”. She asserts that my behaviour continues to be similar to what she didn’t like before. This is hard to take because I’m trying so hard to be different, and I disagree.
I can’t take responsibility for her ongoing refusal to pursue trust/some form of reconciliation, but it does make me feel bad (as I played a role in her being in this situation) and I love her.
I’m thinking through some options now. I don’t want anything too dramatic to change for D2. But I’d like to see her once every week – some time mid week, and I’d like to see her on at least some of the public holidays (perhaps we can decide which ones and alternate each year). The way the system works here, is that you try to agree first, and then the process gets more structured (started off with some alternative dispute resolution type service and, if that fails, the courts). After our recent conversation didn’t go well, I’ve proposed that we advance this topic via email.
Sent this to W today. I'm adding it to this thread for information/journaling.
"Hi W I would like to raise adding to the current arrangements the following:
(i) one evening during the week that I don't have D2 over the weekend. This will enable D2 and I to see each other each week, instead of on a fortnightly basis. For example, I could collect her from the crèche [at my work - where D2 already goes]Wednesday evening and take her back into the crèche on the Thursday morning. I appreciate that you may consider this disruptive for D2 but given that I live close by and she is quite familiar with my place now I think she would adjust quickly as it becomes a new routine especially if I follow the same system you do i.e. dinner, brush teeth, story time, bed. I think that it is in D2's best interests to have meaningful routine parental relationships with both of us beyond the constraints of a “visiting” or “access” relationship and I wish to pursue that objective while respecting the desire for incremental change.
(ii) the NZ public holidays to be considered separately from a normal week. I would like for us to have a list of them and then agree which ones we have D2 for - I imagine every other year is a reasonable way to do it. If I don't have D2 for [National Holiday] day this year, I would like to have her next year, for example.
(iii) to considered as first choice "baby-sitter". Obviously, I can't always do it, including when you both may be out of Wellington. I will let you know asap if I can't do it so as not to inconvenience you.
I would be grateful if you could provide me with an earlier update re: whether D2 and I will be driving up to [W's parent's farm] [2.5 hour drive there] on the Sunday when I’ve D2 for the weekend. This information will help me to plan a bit better.
1. I am willing to agree to your request in relation to public holidays. I've had a crack at it (see attached). The key reasons I've made the choices are:
•I wanted to make sure one of us didn't have D2's company on both Easter and Christmas in the same year (and the other not to have either). •D2 was with me for Christmas Day last year so I have proposed she would be with you this year. •I felt the person who misses out on D2's company over Christmas should look after her over New Year.
2. In relation to weekends when you have D2 to stay:
•To make it easier for you, I am willing to agree to a presumption that you don't drive up to the [place 2.5 hours away] but rather drop her here [in the same city where W also lives at least 3 days each week]. •I am willing for you to bring D2 back after her dinner, so that she is with you for the full weekend, from Friday until Sunday evening.
3. You may be the first choice babysitter. I am not promising that in every single instance I will ask you, but that can be the presumption.
4. On the weeks when D2 is not going to be staying with you, you may take her to lunch on one of her Penguin [the creche] days. You may not have her overnight on a normal, operational week night. This is in part because I want her to be settled but, more importantly, it is because a) particularly with respect to something as precious and vulnerable as a young child, years of seriously mistreating me (including involving D2 and mistreating me in her presence) cannot be countered in just over a year and b) in any event, based on my last two interactions with you I am doubtful that meaningful change has taken place. As noted in my last emails, you took my recent approach as personal criticism and went on the attack, upsetting me in public and later over the phone. I have no evidence that you considered seriously, for any period of time at all, the points I was making. Rather, you appeared to focus on how you could counter my points and discredit what I was saying.
As you can see, I have agreed to everything you have asked for (and gone significantly further, in relation to your weekends with D2) except where I have serious and valid concerns. In the latter instance, I have nevertheless offered a compromise.
I am thinking about how to respond. I am pleased that she has allowed me to see D2 more. I am very sad about the rationale for refusing the weekday evening. I think particularly her interpretation of the recent meeting and phone call & comment that I've not changed.
Our interpretations are very different about the meeting and phone call. The subjects (meeting: her opinion of my parenting based on one interaction, which was with other adults who had no problem; phone call: which was after I sent an email asking for more time with Winifred - she was very charged and I was at work open plan and kept calm. My colleagues who 'overheard' even complemented me for keeping calm and collected). I think that the context (our separation; history of my verbal abuse)and topics (opinions of parenting; custody arrangements)are tough for anyone, and "upsetting". I was upset following them too. I don't think upsetting equals abuse. I'd like not to upset her, but I have to balance that with being able to be honest and disagree respectfully. This is a challenge we've always had.
I would like to suggest we have a professional third person involved if we have conversations about difficult things as I want to be able to disagree and be assertive without either of us feeling so bad. I think that requires trust and I think that needs to be built - with guidance, patience and compassion.
My goal is to not raise D2 via emails & be a bigger part of her life, and to have a better relationship with W - who I really do care about. I'm not saying her feelings about these last two in person aren't valid - but they don't seem reasonable at all. Comparing how I was in the cafe to how I was before she left is harsh. I just disagreed politely. I have come a long way since we left and feel much better. I do think she needs to decide to stop being a victim for her sake and D2 and learn how to communicate. Asserting "years of mistreatment" isn't balanced and it's very negative.
I want to respond to her about the potential benefits of seeking help with our communication through a counsellor and that I'd be open to her bringing her father along too. I will accept if she's still not ready for this yet, but I do want to communicate that there is a way forward.
