She left - 2

[gogofo]

Go- you are doing great. Look at this video bro

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo_UA2l9ZkY

I believe it has happened to you

Thanks ye, I will have to find the time to watch it.

[Positivespin]

I have been thinking about Easter for a while. My plan is to do an egg hunt with the kids and build them each an Easter basket. I will invite W to attend, but I am not going to hold back or wait for her response. If she wants to be there she can be, if she opts out then that is her choice. The door will be open for her, she can choose to enter or not, no judgment from me (this is the important part, my feelings need to be detached from her actions).

..........That, my friend......is PERFECT

[gogofo]

Little update. Friday morning W came over and took kids to school, not much talk or interaction.

Today she sent me a pic of each kid mid day. Around 7:00 I got a call from the car with the kids talking. W then invites me to come and join them on a "kiddie cone" run. She drives across town to pick me up and we head out. She buys me a drink then off to Starbucks for her.

She asked if I was in a hurry and we head out for a 15 minute ride around town, then drops me off. Kiss kids goodbye and that's it.

She said the kids asked about dad and ice cream so they called me. Truth, lie, excuse, or whatever, she invited me along. Conversation and interaction was light hearted and fun, ever enjoyable and reminiscent of when we were good. I can't help but feel like this was like a mini or trial date. Only she knows her true intentions, but it was pleasant none the least.

Just when I start to feel different and think less about her and more about me this happens. Coincidentally or not who knows. It was enjoyable but may not mean anything. Felt great to be like a family again, but not trying to read into it or get my hopes up.

Being honest I think she may be starting to feel or see me differently. That being said, I am going to keep holding course because it may still be working.

[Barrybran]

Sounds like a good interaction. To paraphrase what you said, no expectations, no mindreading and keep doing what works

[25yearsmlc]

Sometimes I highlight things I see as positive, AND OR I cross thru when someone needs to stop minereading or projecting negatively, etc.


Let's look at the positives...

Little update. Friday morning W came over and took kids to school, not much talk or interaction.

Today she sent me a pic of each kid mid day. Around 7:00 I got a call from the car with the kids talking. W then invites me to come and join them on a "kiddie cone" run. She drives across town to pick me up and we head out. She buys me a drink then off to Starbucks for her.

There ^^^are FOUR acts on her part that are indisputably positive. SAVOR THIS FAVOR...


She asked if I was in a hurry and we head out for a 15 minute ride around town, then drops me off. Kiss kids goodbye and that's it.

She said the kids asked about dad and ice cream so they called me. Truth, lie, excuse, or whatever, she invited me along.

Not sure why you'd put any negative attention here^^. It was ALL positive. As long as you don't increase your expectations, there's nothing wrong or weird or risky, with being grateful for positive interactions.

Thats what I mean when I say "get out of your own way". Do you think you were like this when fully married? I mean, so skeptical or suspicious? Were you able to be in the moment and feel happy, without any pollution in it?

I say this partly b/c of how you write/sound to me, here.

But also b/c sometimes it's an unfortunate trait in human nature to get so jaded that we "forget" to feel our joy and peace and happy times-- FULLY, whereas when we are sad or angry, we FOCUS in on it...nothing else interferes.

Have you ever been SO furious that nothing someone said or did, made any difference?

But then, compare it to happy times...holding a new baby...and then letting a fear or old resentment or insecurity pop in and "stain" the joy.
Why do we do that? Who knows? But identify when you are negating a positive and stop yourself before you swirl in negativity

and ENJOY JOY in life.

Make sense? IF I have not already suggested those TED talks, I will now. "Positive Psychology" by Shawn Achor and another one by Amy Cuddy on "faking it til you Become it" (titles of their talks might be different but they were at the 2012 TED Conference,among others) and

though short, their talks were profound in their implications. Only 20 minutes long but if applied, absolutely life changing.

And that workshop I mentioned above, SHOWS you how to do ^^ these types of things. You get tools for that and we all need New tools after a martial challenge such as yours.

"Retrovaille" is a retreat weekend solely FOR couples in crisis,

whereas EE is for individuals (which sometimes means couples).

Naturally when we improve as indiduvals, we tend to become better partners, better parents, better workers and just better people.
For ME, attending an individual workshop without my h was far easier b/c I was not inhibited by some of "my" issues. (My r with my late mother in law was a problem for me, which I doubt I'd have brought up if my h had been at the workshop with me. But learning what MY role was, and was not, really helped me fix it and helped my r with h, of course. But it was so much deeper than that...anyhow, check out their website. There are a few with similar names but they are NOT the same. EE that I'm discussing is in Philadephia. Autumn Leaves and Power of Now and "Inshock: and Lucky Luke are some of the DBers who loved it.

I don't know anyone from DB who hasn't loved EE...but enough with the acronyms...yikes. This will read like a government contract soon...





Conversation and interaction was light hearted and fun, ever enjoyable and reminiscent of when we were good. I can't help but feel like this was like a mini or trial date. Only she knows her true intentions, but it was pleasant none the least.

Actually she may not know, OR she may know but it may change, so, is there ANY point to the guessing game? (No, it's just self inflicted confusion and or pain).


Just when I start to feel different and think less about her and more about me this happens. Coincidentally or not who knows.

Don't read too much into this! IF - IF - IF there is any connection,

it's b/c you are not radiating your needs/expectations as much and thus you are easier to be around.

That's a good thing...right?


It was enjoyable but may not mean anything. Felt great to be like a family again, but not trying to read into it or get my hopes up.


Get out of your own way. "It was enjoyable --BUT"...

STOP yourself when you insert a "But", after a nice true comment.

"it WAS enjoyable." End the sentence with that, instead of negating the prior clause.

That's what the word "But" does to our meaning, it negates it what we just said before it.

EXAMPLE: "You're very handsome, BUT you're overweight"....the recipient hears ONLY that he is fat.

You say it "felt great to feel like a family again" (Which she may have felt too) so just leave it at that, and feel gratitude.

It seems to me every time you feel something positive, you think the other shoe will drop.

That ^^ can create a scenario in which you bring about the very thing you fear most. Like when some insecure men get super possessive and jealous of their wives, they get uber controlling and critical/suspicious of nothing. They hurt their wives with their criticisms and scrutiny and lack of faith. Ironically,

They can end up pushing the w into the arms of OM b/c the h is so nutty and angry & the wife is so lonely and bullied/harried...So in that situation (hypothetical!) that ^^ h created or brought about the very thing he most feared---and yet---

AND YET---he will probably say "SEE? I TOLD YOU SHE WOULD CHEAT!" And never look in the mirror to ask if maybe He caused her to do so!...

So just FEEL the happy moments, the gratitude and don't take away from it or add into it, some doubt or nagging suspicion.

Happiness is NOT = to false hope. So imo, you risk nothing by feeling happy. You risk a life of joyless living and loveless relationships, if you cannot feel joy or happiness without negating it in the next breath.

Just curious, I'm an adult child of an alcoholic. That's not a big part of ME or my life at this juncture but in my 20s it played a role in how I experienced things. Sometimes I "worried" about being too happy b/c I thought it would change the next day, as if I could not get that lucky...or maybe I didn't believe I was deserving enough.

I attended a workshop I think YOU would get a lot out of, that other DBers have said they greatly needed/valued. It's called "Essential Experience" (aka "EE") and I apologize in advance if you are the person I just posted to, about this. I hate repeating myself (and I don't even get a kickback for referring people!!)

But EE changed my life and the lives of everyone I know, who has attended. It's pretty darn profound and very much in alignment with DB principles as well.

Check it out please.


And, please, do yourself a favor and Leave the gratitude alone, & just FEEL it.

Not sure how else to say this but , BE more positive - and thus more happy- and thereby easier to be around, easier to love, and much easier to feel loved BY - a happy person.

Can you "hear" me?

Being honest I think she may be starting to feel or see me differently. That being said, I am going to keep holding course because it may still be working.

"she may be starting to feel/see me differently"

Well yes she MAY. That was your goal....Only time will tell. You know your behavior right in that situation was not making things WORSE...

so what's with "that being said...I won't change course"...What??

I mean, WHY would you change course when it appears to be succeeding in getting her to doubt her choice. That' was the goal, not a complete turnaround so fast, which would not be credible or lasting anyhow. People CAN rush reconciliations too fast but there is very little downside to taking it slow and building on it. Like the foundation of a home you want to last...

(SIGH...sometimes your negating comments and frequent caveats makes it hard for me to know just what you are trying to say, or what you fear so much...)

IN SUM

1) there were definite positives in your situation, so something IS working.

2) No APPARENT (to me anyhow) reason for you to change course. Who suggested that? (Anyone? Your fears?)

Don't equate your desire to "work on the m", with constantly doing something... and don't assume that "doing something" is always good/ b/c TIME is a key ingredient to all the success stories here.

I know it is hard not to want assurances - our spouses cannot provide at this time. So don't ask and don't focus on the unmet needs. Focus on the positives.

3) why do you say "it may still" be working - when as far as I know, it's the only thing that HAS clearly definitely been working...

I mean, what are you really saying? You want to change...to WHAT?

Are you still mixing the approaches so you can't tell what is working and what is not Or just getting impatient or what?

Make a choice of approach, and stick with THAT ONE, and give it enough time before you monitor for results, let alone decide it's Not working,

let alone decide What to change to...
B/C I think you confuse yourself a lot, and that's probably sending mixed signals to your w.

Be consistent. Show those changes, which you need Not worry about showing if they are real. Reality reveals itself, like TRUTH...

and again, "do the math".

Consistent changes + sufficient time = change she can believe in.

(In case you were wondering about when You can Worry about HER flaws,

it is never...b/c it's not your job. And if you can't handle that answer then at least admit that the time for YOU to focus on Her flaws is at the very least, a whole lot later. Getting in her sandbox now, only harms you).

If someone as stubborn as I am, can learn this^^ lesson, You can too.

So stay in your sandbox and take care of Your stuff.

Good luck!

[gogofo]

25, maybe this will help clarify. I did fully enjoy the interaction we had yesterday. None of the "buts" or negative thoughts came up during our time together.

The buts and disqualifying comments were a way for me to settle down and not get my expectations up. The same thing about my comments about why she called. I don't want to develop false hopes and expectations. I did this early on and it was detrimental. Same thing applies to my comment on staying with what works.

I know what you mean about just enjoying the happiness and I have been working at this constantly. I used to negate my happiness with "buts" and other feelings, but have rarely done it for quite some time and have been proud of my personal growth in this area.

I intended to work at her place. When we interact I fully enjoy it and do not disqualify or negate my happiness. I am still feeling happiness from our little trip. I have learned to enjoy these things without in turn expecting more, sometimes I have to write out my inner thoughts to keep myself grounded. Later that evening I found myself daydreaming about her calling me and asking me to come over. I smiled and then changed thoughts because in the past these thoughts became expectations.

Just so you know the course of action that has worked has been low contact. I text her when she has the kids at night to ask how they are. I let her dictate the conversation. Most of the time it is a two message conversation, other times she sends more. When we interact I make sure I am at my best, even practice body language on the drive over. I practice all my new 180 skills, validate, etc. But I usually try to leave her wanting more and head out or leave while the energy is still good. I don't even look back when I leave or she leaves, which is hard to do.

I caught your TED talk recommendations in another thread in February. I was inspired and immediately read Shawn's book and have been working his ideas for the last 35 days. I really am a ton happier which has helped my DBing and detachment significantly.

[Positivespin]

You are working in so many different aspects of you that I feel the need to remind you of one very important tool......

The word "NO"

You are clearly "doing what works", and its having its desired effect, but remember - YOU MUST BE YOU If there is something you dont want to do just say "no".

I found myself early on trying to do so much that I did everything- trying to win her love.

But I lost her respect. Now that im soooooo much stronger I am able to use "No"- and our conversations have become much better after I grew my backbone.

[25yearsmlc]

You wrote:

...When we interact I make sure I am at my best, even practice body language on the drive over. I practice all my new 180 skills, validate, etc. But I usually try to leave her wanting more and head out or leave while the energy is still good. I don't even look back when I leave or she leaves, which is hard to do.

I caught your TED talk recommendations in another thread in February. I was inspired and immediately read Shawn's book and have been working his ideas for the last 35 days. I really am a ton happier which has helped my DBing and detachment significantly.


That's ^^^ really good stuff. And for those of us who "make it" around here, it's mandatory to do these ^^ things, and more.

Such as what my DB coach urged me to do, which included

1) "applaud loudly for the 1% positives done by the WAS", which was MOTHER TERESA hard to do...at times...but geez, it helped my situation.

I think it matters a lot in your case especially, b/c you have a woman who is very torn.

Keep at these efforts b/c regardless of the marital outcome, you'll be a better man. That has to count for something. On occasion, it's all we get out of this "ordeal," and yet for most of us doing this journey, that actually is enough. Or it can be...or it has to be...

I know in my heart I have given my best to my m, (even with my many mistakes) and I know I did right by my children (or tried to). And, That IS enough.

The reconciliation is a big bonus, to be sure. But it no longer was "THE" goal, but merely one goal of many personal goals.

Also, 2) note that No woman is unmoved by the loving interactions of her children, with their dad (or the man in her life). But especially by the biological father. I think it's a turn on, like emotional foreplay. Seeing my h, years ago, on the floor with dolls playing with our d, who was then about 5, almost made me swoon. I LOVED THAT scene...

Be the best father you can be, now more than ever. Be in the moment, actively listening to them and reassuring them of your love AND their mother's love.

You do this, Not for your wife, per se. But for the children who truly need to know this, now, more than ever.

Reassuring them of their mother's love is key to THEIR development. Their self esteem...so it's not about what your w "deserves" as a mother but about your children's welfare.

One thing I consistently reassured my kids of, was that their dad would kill/die for them. I meant that, and I think your w is likely the same.

It does not mean our spouses make no mistakes, Lord knows. My h deeply wounded our d's when he left. As flawed as his decision was, and imo, as selfish as it was, it was also blind and a bit clueless. IOW, not "evil" but clueless.

And he feels profound remorse for it. It's a hard mountain for him to climb to get back into their hearts...but He DOES love our children---quite deeply.

THAT belief/ knowledge is essential for the growth and development of our children. Our children benefit greatly from that.

The truth will reveal itself, so don't worry about cake eating or her "Getting away with lying"...b/c 1) NOT your job to enforce the "laws" on her and 2) you cannot be the messenger of that "Truth" for several reasons. I hope those reasons are obvious...

Just remember that 1) it's for the kids you do this, and the other DB mantra of mine was to,

2) Keep the Road Home, Paved & Smooth...so don't make it any harder for your w to return than it already would be.

Don't add hurdles or imagine your w has a guilt free life or worry free existence. That is not true. She's in pain. It's hard to believe it when you compare her pain, or anyone's, to your own.

Also, just so I know, what would SHE say your flaws are, if any? I don't recall what it is you believe might have played a role in all this, on your end.

I am not defending your w's affair, but I have to say, it's very rare for a woman who has no record of cheating, to have an affair if her marriage had been solid or her needs were met.

Not saying it's impossible, but frankly, it won't help YOU at all, for me to say "you were a great h, but she's still leaving..." b/c then you are truly powerless.
Whereas if we find a few traits of yours that are not so great, maybe, maybe we can focus on what YOU CAN change, in YOU....

When we saw a mc (probably the 3rd one in a row) who told my h that he was "not acting as if he had a family" and basically telling him he was wrong to do what he was planning, it did ME, no good.

I mean, if a mc tells you that your w is being selfish you may feel validated...but so what?

What do you DO with that information? See my point?

You want to have things in your own sandbox, that you can do something about.

So what are you working on in you, specifically?

and Keep at it!

[gogofo]

Also, just so I know, what would SHE say your flaws are, if any? I don't recall what it is you believe might have played a role in all this, on your end.

I am not defending your w's affair, but I have to say, it's very rare for a woman who has no record of cheating, to have an affair if her marriage had been solid or her needs were met.

She would say that I was self centered and controlling. She expressed feeling trapped or unvalued in her opinion. I had issues taking her for granted. When doing things that were not EXACTLY what I wanted to do, she specifically mentioned visiting her family, I would be "miserable".

She said recently that she did not think that I liked her. She got specific and said that I did not like her music, decorating taste, clothes, haircut etc. Revisionist history, but her feelings right now. I would talk about how new country music is a product, etc, and talk about the music I liked as art not a product. Decorating the house I felt was a collaborative experience but to her it must have felt like an argument. I tend to overthink and plan way too much when she would just want to do what she wants right away.

Lastly I was way overcommitted to my job/career. What killed us was the last six months when I would work 60 to 75 hours a week with weekends and nights working were common place. She likes to be able to get away and have fun and my job trapped me and my actions made it seem to her that I would not allow her to do things either. I was miserable in my job and it reflected towards her.

Affair? You may be getting my history mixed with someone else. The most that may have happened (that I know of) was some time last year she was talking with a coworker about her doctoral program she is in and she said she felt paid attention to and interesting. I had not made her feel that way in a while. I think it may have ended and do not think it progressed to anything more but I am not sure. When she was serious and ready to file for a D, she admitted to her EA but that it was only one or two conversations about her work.

So what are you working on in you, specifically?

My biggest two things are developing empathy and not basing my happiness on success. For half my life I knew what I wanted to be in my career and when I achieved every step along the way I set a new goal that I thought would bring happiness. I no longer am basing my happiness on career goals, I am finding happiness in everyday life, friends, family, etc. (thanks Shawn Achor!)

Developing empathy has shown me my self centered actions of the past and how she felt she does not matter. I am working on selfless actions and active listening. I have never assumed I was blameless in the separation. In fact I have accepted 90% or better of the issues leading to the separation. I have spent much of my time putting myself in her situation and I know and understand why she would leave with the feelings she said she had.

Also I changed my work roll at work and voiced issues with the commitment I was "forced" into with the project. I rearranged and delegated more responsibilities to others and I am seeing if other employees can step up to the plate and do what they should be doing in their positions. I take every opportunity that comes up to show that family is more important than work.

Tons of GAL. Reconnecting with friends, exercising, house repairs, walking with the dogs, all around staying busy and positive.

Also I read self help books about relationships and also about communicating with kids and being a better parent. The least amount of work I have done on myself and the DBing has been 1.5 hours. This has been everyday since Superbowl Sunday.

I have been doing more, but this is what I can come up with during lunch at the spur of a moment.

I am committed to DBing, my kids, and fixing my relationship (if possible); maybe overly at times. Just trying to be a better me and keep up my work to ensure that these changes have the best chance possible at becoming permanent.

[gogofo]

Something else that was an issue for the W was lack of planning events for the weekend. In the beginning of the R I used to joke that it was Sadder-day not Saturday. W was grumpy a lot on weekends waiting for us to do something or have a plan. This was a bigger issue in the summers because she is a teacher and has them off. By Friday she has been sick of being home and is ready to do something, but I have been working all week and get solace from being at home. No matter how many times we tried or made efforts, we slipped back into not having a plan on Saturdays.

She was the one who made most of the plans, hence me taking her for granted. She also said she stopped trying and I did not notice. This remark was about having a planned date night and her always taking the initiative to get the sitter and make sure we had a date night. When she stopped taking the initiative, I did not notice nor did I plan many or any date nights.

I knew this was an issue right before she left and I had things planned out, but too little too late. She already felt disrespected and unvalued. Anything I did at this point seemed reactionary and only a ploy to win her back. When I empathize and try to see things from her perspective this hurts.

She has mentioned if I had tried even a little bit she never would have left. I was trying, but after reading the Five Love Languages I now understand how she missed my actions.

My actions for this were to take initiative with events, ideas, etc. I have been working on this with friends, family, and at work since I cannot do it with the W. I also have been thinking of date ideas and have a journal with around 30 different or unique ideas besides going to dinner and a movie kind of stuff. This way when, or if, the chance comes I can pick through a list and plan things ahead of time instead of last minute or never at all.