Hmmm, I guess with respect to the new joint account and the associated risk... The joint fund could exist on paper only, meaning there isn't any plastic associated with it. All other rules of contribution, usage, eligibility and documentation for shared expenses would still apply. Then monthly, the joint fund would reimburse each personal account only for legitimate shared expenses.
i.e. your personal CC gets reimbursed on a line by line basis only for eligible shared expenses that have full documentation.
Same net effect, no risk. And you get to see all the other personal expense detail on the CC too for no extra charge.
There wasn't any cash the other way either. No ATM, no cash-back on purchases. Debit card only, and limited checks for exceptions. No CASH. Any cash comes from her income, otherwise all spending is visible.
There wasn't any cash the other way either. No ATM, no cash-back on purchases. Debit card only, and limited checks for exceptions. No CASH. Any cash comes from her income, otherwise all spending is visible.
Originally Posted By: zew, on 3/28/2014:
On a whole other topic, W came and asked me for $40 cash this morning. I didn't say anything, I was brushing my teeth.
W has no access to cash, she puts everything on CC which I have always paid. For 13 years this wasn't a problem, or at least, she never mentioned it. If she ever asked for cash, I gave it to her.
I want to add that in a healthy M, all this money stuff should be done differently than we did it. It just sort of worked out that way when she stopped working and didn't seem to be an issue at the time. It makes her feel like a child to have to come and ask me for cash. Just one of the issues I was blind to, and that she didn't vocalize.
Sorry about the he said/she said nature of this post.
Well, we talked about joint account for family expenses last night.
I stuck to the script.
I wasn't a minute into it when: W: This is the problem, you're treating me like a child. Z: How so? I'm proposing a 3 pool model for handling personal and shared expenses, a very popular model for dual income families, that treats us as equals. W: But you're have a picture of the model like I'm too stupid to understand. Z: It's just a visual aid. Nobody said you were stupid.
Anyway, she wholly rejects the idea without listening to any of it, because "Once again, Zew, you're treating me like a child."
She said we can just keep going like we are. I said that we really couldn't because our situation was changing, our old model didn't work for either of us, followed by: "Considering where our marriage seems to be headed, this is all financial documentation and transparency any mediator or judge is going to require anyway."
To which she replied "what judge?" Huh?
She again mentioned that she wants to have access to my account. I stuck to the script. "My first obligation is to protect my family, and I have to consider your financial track record".
When she questioned this, I asked: Z: How are you doing sticking with the budget I gave you at Christmas? W: I don't know. Z: Why not? Do you know the state of your CC? W: No. Z: Why not? W: Because I don't have access to it. Z: It's your account! You have online access, and you get the statement every month.
Then she wandered off into a laundry list of my wrongdoings over an 18 year period. It was like a mini-BD all over again. I let her lead this. I shut up and validated as much as I could, but admittedly not completely.
She claimed I had been disengaged for "years" and that it has only been the last 3 months that I've been back in the family. This was about the only bright spot. This means she has seen changes. Yay - right direction.
But more of the same, "I gave and I gave and I'm done." stuff.
She told me she didn't believe my enthusiasm about her new career because any time I praise her, my voice raises an octave, like how you say "Good girl" when your new puppy pees outside instead of on the carpet.
A conversation about meeting needs. She met all my needs and I met none of hers. I said I must have met some of her needs over 18 years, and that if I had disengaged from the family, there must have been some need going unmet. Nothing further.
I said that I accepted her points of view and feelings. She said I just thought she was wrong. I said that I was interested in any differing viewpoints, not because anyone was right or wrong, but the difference pointed to an area where I would have to do some soul-searching to understand why we saw things differently - it was an opportunity to improve myself. This got me a "well good for you" which was totally expected. I totally get that she resents me fixing myself "too late".
The whole thing was relatively low key. She was clearly angry, but not raging. Dismissive of anything I had to say. I am the bad guy. I took full responsibility for things I recognize to have been my fault - only wishing that I had been more aware earlier of what I was doing.
I called her on was this: About 20 times she said something like "...and you did x because you think y..." I told her that she really couldn't mind read what I thought, so anytime she said "because you think y", she was speculating. The only way to really understand why I did x would be to ask me.
"You think you can say the right thing and everything will go back to normal" I assured her that I fully understood that nothing I could say would affect her in any way, and that there was no way back; neither of us wants back to what was.
She got tired of talking and left for a few minutes, then came back to go to sleep.
So this morning, I thanked her for talking last night. I said it was helpful to me to understand how she perceived things. She shrugged.
I also said that we still don't have a financial model for moving forward, since she rejected mine last night. I asked her for her proposal by Friday. She shrugged.
If I get nothing back, I'll start the joint expense record keeping "of the kind any judge will require anyway" on my own, based on CC records. And then her CC will bomb.
I'm a little discouraged. I didn't expect much out of this. I got a few more ideas about what I've done wrong in the past. Some are just awareness things; some may be actionable.
Clearly, her desire is to keep going as is until she's ready. Things are going to change, with or without her participation.
Dude, if I am being honest, I'm shocked that you used a visual aid to try and explain the account system to your W. I would totally feel demeaned as well. Also, from reading your post, I still think you are judging her too much and not really getting where's she's coming from. You want this to proceed like it's a business deal and it's clearly not just math for her. She's hurt. I would've tuned you out a long time ago myself. Wow. I hope this isn't too harsh but you are just not on the right page here, IMO.
If you read back in my posts, W has repeatedly gotten into financial trouble and hidden it from me.
She's now in an active A, talking about sticking around until she's financially ready to go. She's skipping out on court ordered payments for bad debt, and talking with her friends about "getting me" to pay off her debt. I have offered to help, she has still declined. She's ignoring the budget. Meanwhile she's out buying whatever she thinks she needs. She is completely out of control.
I think I get what she wants -- she wants full access to feel secure in being a fully trusted partner in our M. It isn't math to her at all. If you loved me, you would give me the keys to the store. But there just isn't any trust right now, from both financial and future intent standpoint. I've told her we could get there with commitment and work, but that's not where we are. That presents a problem.
That's why I proposed an alternative. I want to get to somewhere between where we are and where she wants to be. I want to move the ball forward.
Is it hard for me to keep judgment concealed on this? Yes. I understand not judging people based on my values. Is paying the bills you incur a value? Not that I'm hung up on making a statement when it's truly not helpful, but I have good reason to be cautious.
Now, having said that, if you feel that I'm just wrong, I'm all ears.
I agree with you, Z, for the reasons you just detailed right there. And furthermore (altho I too would have skipped the visual aid -- ugggh) I think you otherwise handled the whole conversation VERY well.
Being a woman, I think you should've handled it more softly. I would not have responded well to your approach. But, Starsky is great on this stuff so I generally defer to him. I guess it depends ultimately on what you want right now, more secure finances or a more secure W. I get the bind your in though. It does not seem like you can have both at the moment. Sorry if I was too harsh. I'm with you ultimately and support your efforts. . .
