living with WAW who hasn't walked yet (2)

[Starsky309]

Or, maybe you can lead.


Starsky

[zew]

Or, maybe you can lead.

Yeow, nad check. Again, I appreciate your frankness.

I believe you and Sandi are among the tough love bunch. LBH has to know what he wants, ask for it, be firm and consistent. WAW won't respect anything less. I'm trying to get there.

It's been a rough weekend. What with S's birthday, and thoughts of it being the last as a family, and all that emotional wallow. Still get hung up on the reality of the surreal.

So, the joint debit account thing:

- I will wait, say a week, to see if she bites on my invitation. She'll bounce it off her T and girlfriends this week.
- I can force it a week from now. She will hate that and see it as more controlling. I don't really care. She is out of control.
- or I can wait for reality to hit her. The trendline says she hits her CC limit in 3 weeks. Then I can implement it as a solution.
And I guess this comes with the "if you don't want to work with me on solutions, I'll come up with my own" talk. Stow that, it's not helpful.
Either way, it's got to happen. I have to set a new precedent in case of D. This will not go peacefully.

She wants an ipad or similar for work. She's asked about 3 times. I really haven't responded except to tell her to determine what the requirements are for the apps she needs to run. It will come up again within next couple of weeks. An opportunity to remind her that if she isn't into working on this R, we are headed to a place that doesn't have me buying ipads. That's not DB is it. That's me being an Ahole.

If we had the joint debit account in place for family expenses, and she had an income, this would just be something that would go on her personal CC to deal with however she can manage. (Except that she has no way to cover any personal expenses yet. And I don't want to be the bank anymore, for some reason.)


I'm considering this: (so check me!)
Ask W if she has given any more thought to working with me on us.
She will say either that she isn't ready, and is still working on herself (stall), or that she is "done".
To which I simply state "This M won't last long if we don't start the work."

I know that MC is useless if she isn't there of her own volition, and until A is over.

So what's the point, you ask?

Maybe she will get that she isn't fully in control of the timeline. Every day that passes is a day when she's telling me she doesn't want to save the M. What can she expect from me then? Again, she may figure I'll wait, but every day that goes by she's telling me not to?

Am I just wordsmithing again? Just trying to throw a reality jolt into this fantasy. That there is something to lose. Honestly, I don't know where she thinks we stand right now. Also trying to establish that to save it, she has to make a move. Yes, I know she doesn't want to save it right now, but then she owns that. I know she's concerned that I'll be the one who will be able to say I tried and she wouldn't. I don't really have any expectations from this, but it may at least establish that she is not on firm ground.

Meanwhile, for the next few months, I 180, LRT and GAL like I'm gone. Have fun with the kids. Don't worry about W, OM and A. And keep getting my sheep together. And cleaning out the basement and attic, silently but visibly readying.

We all went out to dinner last night. It was pleasant, superficial talk about work.
She mentioned she'll be busy this summer and thinks she will only have time for one trip. So that's the hint right there that she only plans to go to her Mom's place with the kids in June, and not on the family vacation in July. That will give me a couple of weeks alone with the kids at the lake to reassess everything. It will be August by then, almost a year since the EA started. One way or another, this limbo will be broken.

You know, it occurred to me that she may be in such denial about the A that she doesn't understand why I'm not persuing her now.

[sandi2]

She'll bounce it off her T and girlfriends this week.

.......and the OM.

- or I can wait for reality to hit her. The trendline says she hits her CC limit in 3 weeks. Then I can implement it as a solution.

I would see it as being more of a "rescue". If you are going to wait for reality to hit......then don't recue her from it.

She wants an ipad or similar for work. She's asked about 3 times. I really haven't responded except to tell her to determine what the requirements are for the apps she needs to run

Do you believe she needs it for work?

It will come up again within next couple of weeks. An opportunity to remind her that if she isn't into working on this R, we are headed to a place that doesn't have me buying ipads.

I'm considering this: (so check me!)
Ask W if she has given any more thought to working with me on us.
She will say either that she isn't ready, and is still working on herself (stall), or that she is "done".
To which I simply state "This M won't last long if we don't start the work."

This is different from a R talk.......how?

I know that MC is useless if she isn't there of her own volition, and until A is over.

Exactly!

Maybe she will get that she isn't fully in control of the timeline.

No, she won't see it through those type of actions. She will see you trying to force her to stay in the M............not that she is losing control of the timeline. The only thing that will cause her to have those feelings...would be for her to think you were dumping her a$$ b/c you deserved better than her.

Just trying to throw a reality jolt into this fantasy. That there is something to lose.

What are showing her she's losing???? By asking her if she has decided what she wants yet, and trying to get her to go to MC?

Also trying to establish that to save it, she has to make a move. Yes, I know she doesn't want to save it right now, but then she owns that. I know she's concerned that I'll be the one who will be able to say I tried and she wouldn't. I don't really have any expectations from this, but it may at least establish that she is not on firm ground.

But you are still trying to talk your way into her fixing it....and talk does not work. This will not establish any of those things in her mindset.

You know, it occurred to me that she may be in such denial about the A that she doesn't understand why I'm not persuing her now

Nope, she's not thinking about you perusing her. Furthermore, she doesn't welcome it.

[Devaste]

Hey Zew,

Great advice from Sandi and Starsky, as usual. I can't get over how similar my situation is to yours. Getting caught up again on your sitch, I've come down off the hopeless train here.

Looks to me like your doing great things, but I agree with Sandi, from the outside, it looks like you trying to get some type of commitment to work on the marriage. I know that's what we are all seeking, but I'm starting to realize we will never get that.

Seems to me like myself, I need to get away from ultimatum type threats . A lot of the introspective thoughts you are putting down, are awesome, but I don't think your W will see them the same way. I'm hardly an expert, but because I know what I am looking to get as a response, I get why you are thinking this is a good idea.

Here's to GAL and detaching in April

[zew]

She'll bounce it off the OM

It would be wise to assume so, yes.
I get the feeling she's "in love" with him and chasing him, and he's just saying as much as he has to to keep having sex with her, but what do I know.

I would see it as being more of a "rescue". If you are going to wait for reality to hit......then don't recue her from it.

Ya, I guess I just have to tell her that's the way it's going to be as long as I'm paying the bills and she's living here. I want no part of her CC anymore.

The only thing that will cause her to have those feelings...would be for her to think you were dumping her a$$ b/c you deserved better than her.

See, I keep stubbornly trying to find a way to do this other than filing.
As Starsky's said, it will can come up during the debit card convo, "we're headed for D, and it's the transparency any judge will want to see, so let's get with the program now." We're on the path, and I'm the one pushing the plan to separate her from us.

Do you believe she needs it for work?

I believe a lot of things were sold before the invention of the ipad

[zew]

Maybe a moment of clarity here...

Neither of us has ever mentioned the D word. We've been dancing around this elephant for months. She because she wants to keep the illusion going and cash flowing, and me because I hoped A would end and it would go away.

I tried to confront her about A by shaming her, being self righteous, and all kinds of judgmental things, and none of that worked; again, because as everyone keeps saying, a WAW in an A is a lying, cheating, manipulative, teenage crack addict with no shame. You just can't reach them that way.

So now, if I say I want to split family from personal finances, because in the case of the impending D, we will need a true understanding of family expenses, I have made no judgment, have I. There's no threat there, it's all just reality. And if she's all surprised and shocked by the word D, well it's just because we're in a bad place, and I deserve better. No need to elaborate. That doesn't exclude her. No need to go into A, no need for words, judgment, punitive actions, threats, timelines or ultimatums.

There it is on the plate. Start chewing.

And I continue to DB from a fully detached place. And I look out for me and my kids. And she comes back or she goes. And I don't have to like it, I just have to be comfortable with me, my decisions and my timeline.

[sandi2]

Look again carefully at how Starsky worded it.

"

Look, considering where our marriage seems to be headed, this is all financial documentation and transparency that any judge is going to need anyway, so we might as well start getting on the system now. And I'll be the first to admit, the way we've always done it it screwed up."

Now look at how you said it.

See, I keep stubbornly trying to find a way to do this other than filing.
As Starsky's said, it will can come up during the debit card convo, "we're headed for D, and it's the transparency any judge will want to see, so let's get with the program now." We're on the path, and I'm the one pushing the plan to separate her from us.

It's all about how you say things Zew.

Nobody is telling you that you have to run file for D. "Consideing where our M seems to be going" is not giving quite as strong self-intentions as saying "we're headed for D". But it does let her know you aren't being totally naieve. And your M does "seem to headed" for something, right? Don't use the D word. You don't threaten her with ANYTHING, and you don't give an ultimatum you're not ready to back up. But I don't see this being any of those things. It sounds more like the way you are interpreting what Starsky said. He can explain it much better than I can, but I assure you that he is very good at presenting just the right words to the WW. I might can help explain her to you, but I'm not that good at stating what you should say to her word for word.

The important thing to remember is to keep you cool. If you can't say it calmly (firm, but not angrily)!then don't get into it. I guarantee you she will not respond well if you tell her like the example you gave.

You aren't wanting to rescue her from her own CC debt, but give a management plan that works best for the family.

[zew]

Nobody is telling you that you have to run file for D. "Considering where our M seems to be going" is not giving quite as strong self-intentions as saying "we're headed for D".

Thanks for the smack, Sandi, you're right to call me on that early so that I don't let that burn into my brain only to accidentally slip out later. I really didn't mean that to be taken literally (in spite of the quotes!). I am not running to file. I am not going to propose the worst case outcome, nor will I suggest that I'm going to be the one to put us there. No ultimatums, threats, no timelines. In fact this isn't even the message. This is just a justification for having a shared responsibility, transparent financial management plan, rather than a Zew-does-all plan. And as you said, a justification that lets her know I'm not being totally naive.

You aren't wanting to rescue her from her own CC debt, but give a management plan that works best for the family.

Correct, this is just a healthy way of handling things that we should have done long ago, and bad on us we didn't, and it will serve us well going forward, and give her a much better understanding of what it really costs to run this show. I also have to work in handling of her work expenses so she can track those properly for tax purposes. I already know it will be a tough sell. She is highly skeptical of spreadsheets and formulas, and she will not trust me because math is my thing. I'll be hunting down textbook illustrations and collateral info for this, too, so that it isn't my plan. And if it comes across as condescending or controlling, she'll resist.

Fear not, I'll ruminate a bunch on this, look at it 8 ways from her perspective, reword a dozen times, and sound it out here.

As always, thanks for your input. I'm sure you know how valuable it is to have input from the WAW perspective. I know I really appreciate it and thank you for your service to this community.

[sandi2]

Good to hear!

[zew]

So I want to deal with the joint account thing tomorrow morning. It's the start of a new quarter, so it's a good time. I'll post the outline shortly, just wanted to get a few other thoughts out first...

I told W on weekend that I thought it would be a good idea to set up a joint account for expenses. She just wants me to add her to my main account. (not happening at this point.) I really want to start to get some separation between my personal stuff, joint expenses, and her personal stuff (which is out of control). And I want to get the shared contribution to joint expenses model in place before her income comes online. (she will absolutely freak)

As suspected, she has discussed this with everyone.

She doesn't understand why I don't just add her to my main account. (uh, so you don't clean me out) Apparently, I'm missing the whole point of "shared". (except that I know that she's plotting D)

She is convinced that I won't add her to my account because I must be hiding money or something.

On the iPad front, she is done waiting and plans to just go buy one. (on her credit card that I want to distance myself from)

and Sandi, this one's for you...
She doesn't understand why I haven't come to her looking for sex since Christmas. She's very grateful that I haven't, (as we both knew) but she doesn't know why I haven't.
So it's as I said yesterday. She is convinced that by denying the A, that I must believe there is no A, and if I'm not looking for sex, there must be another reason for that. I guess if you tell big enough lies long enough, you really lose track of reality.