This whole situation is just so bizarre. I keep thinking that the issues W and I have could be resolved so easily if only she would talk to me half as honestly as she does to her girlfriends.
Why does she do that? I guess because they do nothing but validate, and I might challenge. She doesn't do challenge. She has always been insecure, and I thought that she had every reason to feel secure with me.
At her Pathways workshop, W learned that "she doesn't vocalize" and that she "internalizes" and this predates our M. I think this is good. She is learning about herself, and may find that she has her own problems that she can address. Maybe in doing so, I stop being the root of all evil.
Or do I have real problems too? Surely. And I wonder, over 18 years of seemingly a fine R and 2 kids, what didn't she vocalize that she internalized to the point of having an A and behaving as she does today?
I'm not that unapproachable or unbending. All day long at work I bring together people with disparate viewpoints and help them to work towards a common goal. No blame; just reassess and move forward. Did I oversteer? Maybe the goal wasn't as common as I thought. How can I mindread what W never voiced? Was it a sucker's bet from the outset? Lesson: if they're not talking, it's not settled.
The other night, after a minor disagreement, W did something that wasn't what she wanted and wasn't what I wanted. The next morning, I felt really good about it and thanked her for doing it and told her it was a great idea and a good compromise, that we could probably resolve other things that way. She still isn't sure that compromise is a good thing. I think she equates compromise with giving in.
I would so like to talk to W meaningfully -- hope we get to that point. W only talks to OM and enablers. Meaning W only talks to those who validate and don't challenge. I guess that's a DB lesson right there, isn't it: If you want to talk to WAW, smile and nod.
W told girlfriend that I went to dinner without her the other night. (GAL night) I would love to take W to dinner - something she complained I didn't do often enough, but it's not the time.
So what do I know from this: - I am still trying to figure W out, which is probably futile at this stage, so I'd better get back to working on me. - I still love my W, and partly because I see her growing (from time to time it's easy to have doubts) - She got more out of this workshop than months of enabler-therapist. At least she's looking inward. This gives me hope.
Sure would be nice to get this OM thing resolved, though.
This whole situation is just so bizarre. I keep thinking that the issues W and I have could be resolved so easily if only she would talk to me half as honestly as she does to her girlfriends.
SALT AND SUGAR
What that means? Lets see if you are able to see this: Imagine your neighboor doing a bbq and he has no salt, but she has sugar... Well she has never spoken with you so she doesnt know you, she is thinking hmmm I need salt but I have no salt at home and the supermarket its too far, she doesnt even think about you because you are not in her mind...so she decides that she is going to cook with sugar instead....well its her choice right?
Now...you always had salt at home but you dont knock on her door everyday to tell her: HEY I HAVE SALT IN CASE YOU EVER NEED IT...
If she needs salt she will knock your door and do whatever she needs to do to get salt...if she chooses one day to come for salt and you tell her no and made fun of her for cooking a bbq with sugar she is not going to feel safe asking you for salt...
So this is kind of the same...you have to let her come to talk to you, she has to feel safe talking to you... If she doesnt feel safe she is not gonna come...let her work on her own stuff at her own pace, meanwhile you keep doing BBQs and using salt only that way youll grow chances that she will ask you for salt again
When the student its ready, the teacher will appear... Even after all this time the sun never says to the Earth, "You owe me." Look what happens with a love like that,It lights the whole sky.
When the student its ready, the teacher will appear... Even after all this time the sun never says to the Earth, "You owe me." Look what happens with a love like that,It lights the whole sky.
Great story ye21! Makes me want to BBQ, too bad it's snowing . Nice advice as always
Zew,looks like those are some real positive things that are going on. Agree it will need some more time, but her recognition of self and improved self awareness is key for her
I think it's easy to get frustrated because with or new relationship skills and enhanced communication, we feel like we could immediately fix so many of the problems
Patience and time, and letting them come to us are the keys. The OM situations are frustrating as well, because they fill a need for our WAW and prevent any movement
Did some snooping this weekend to "temp check". Everyone tells you not to, and that is good advice. It can be quite a downer, and you have to be prepared for that. Do not do it unless you are know you can ride out the inevitable despair from what you learn. And even then, it's not really worth it. I cycled in just a few hours, and I'm good now.
PA is still on.
W has done a lot of learning about herself, her failure to vocalize, her tendency to internalize. But I am still to blame for everything. Her failure to vocalize only lead her to stick around as long as she has. Figures we're dysfunctional and unfixable because we never argued enough because she couldn't vocalize. She and OM can apparently argue and then make up, so they're good to go.
I'm glad she's learning to fix her stuff. Maybe as she fixes herself she'll see it's not all me. Maybe not. It's all good. Not sure why I care that she accept some responsibility for this; I'll always know. I guess I'm afraid that the kids will blame me.
She has noticed my much increased support around the house, but doesn't think it's genuine. So my 180s are doing what they are supposed to, and I just have to stay consistent over time.
She has noticed that I am spending a lot more time with the kids and being a better parent. But she wonders where I was for the last 10 years, and again, too little, too late. So I'm on the right track and just have to stay consistent over time.
She was amazed that I suggested we work together to back each other up when dealing with D12. Again, wonders why I never backed her up before. I always did; maybe(?) the first time I suggested it out loud. Another positive, I guess. I'll just have to be consistent over time.
When I say "our family expenses are too high", she still interprets that and repeats it as "she spends too much". She acknowledges the words I am saying, but insists that I always meant it as a personal indictment of her.
She's discovered that she's an extravert, (true) but she always felt too insecure to be one. She knows I'm an introvert (true), and therefore, her only attraction to me must have been because I enabled to be an insecure extravert. (?) And because we're opposites, we are incompatible. (?) It's not that I dislike people, it's just that I have a lot of hobbies that I can do alone, and I don't need the constant affirmation of a crowd. But I do like to share a pint, a meal and a story with interesting folk now and then. W does seem to need that affirmation more than I. I've already determined that to have a better social life without W, I need to be a little more extraverted, and have chosen GAL activities that push me out of my comfort zone. I'm enjoying it a great deal, whether it has any impact on M or not.
She wonders what she ever saw in me. I am making my list of those things to see if I can subtly make sure those things are still around. Except of course for all the highly touchy things that are out of bounds right now. (How does that work?)
She hates being around me and tries to avoid me. Even considered having S8 birthday party when I couldn't attend, but decided that "she'll give me that". Now there's the girl I fell in love with. Other times, when I come home, she'll talk to me for 15 minutes about her day. Like it used to be. And yesterday she bought me a muffin for morning snack, as she often does, and I told her she was thoughtful and generous. So the wild swings of WAW behavior are alive and well.
It was funny to come downstairs one morning and find her snooping my phone. I asked her if she found anything good.
So, my conclusions on all this:
- my 180's are being noticed. They need long term consistency to be believed. My 180's make me feel better and are under my control. Since this is already a well known rule, I didn't have to snoop to find this out.
- she's figuring herself out. May help M, may not. Maybe puts her in a position to make a decision less emotionally. At least she's getting help, although not pro-M help - more on the line of "leave behind what is holding you back" help (and that's me). She's on her own path. She'll come either out pro-M or anti-M. I have no control over that. Since this is already a well known rule, I didn't have to snoop to find this out.
- she still spends a great deal of time each day complaining about me. Maybe that means she is still trying to rationalize all this. Unknowable. Didn't have to snoop to find that out.
So, the rules seem to be true, including the one on "no snooping". I feel best when I work on what I can control, and it seems to be being noticed. That's about all I can hope for. Whether or not it is effective in saving M depends on W and her path. I have no expectations. I have the satisfaction of noticeably being a better me.
I haven't followed your sitch until just these last couple of posts, so I'm trying to catch up.
It sounds like your wife's PA isn't a dealbreaker for you (it wasn't for me, either, at least not for a little while, and so long as my wife respected my other boundaries like "no calling or texting OM from inside our marital home," "no spending marital assets on your affair," etc.). But have you decided what IS? (a dealbreaker that is)
I think it's important for betrayed/bombed spouses to do some deep soul-searching, and learn what their own non-negotiable core beliefs are. The fact that you're still so anxious to impress her, in the face of today's revelation, is striking to me.
Thanks for following. I would love you to read through and comment, especially on the topic of tough love and boundaries. I know you took a tough love approach, and Sandi is for that as well, but I feel I have little leverage short of ultimatums that have a lot of downside. That topic is still unsettled.
You are correct, PA is not a deal breaker for me. At least once it's over. I know I will forgive that as a matter of self-preservation. No matter how this turns out, I am determined not to be consumed by hatred.
However, active PA is downright disrespectful. I know right now that W has no respect for me whatsoever, but I don't know if that's any more real than her "love" for OM or any of the other nonsense that she talks. It is demeaning and I detest it.
Right now, I can rationalize this to myself at least for some period as the effects of MLC/WAW syndrome. She is an emotional wreck. She is on sleeping pills and anti-depressants. There is a family history of Bipolar/OCD. I can look at her as if this is a stage that may end. It may not, but I don't know that yet. I know I can put up with a lot of crap for at least a while if I believe there is a chance that it will end without blowing up my kids' emotional and financial future.
I know my W is convinced that we are dysfunctional and cannot fix things. She has no interest in doing any MC together. She is working on herself and discovering bad behaviors that predate me in her life, but I am still to blame. She is fixing herself for her future without me. I can give W time to get to a better place with herself; it can only help.
Meanwhile, I am becoming a better parent. I need time to perfect this.
I am becoming a more supportive H. She sees it but doesn't believe it. This needs consistency over time.
I'm GALing and building my future support group. That needs time.
So, I am using the time I need for me. I'm not quite done with me yet. Is there a need to rush to an undesired outcome before then?
I'm not rushing there until I know that time is no longer helping.
Meanwhile, my W has just started her career, and by her measure, she will need 6-12 months to become financially independent, and 6-18 months for D. That means she plans to be in the house at least a year. Cake eating. She and OM file simultaneously, and both ride off into the sunset.
I figure if I file and D before then, it's an emotional and financial disaster all around. Right now, she is totally financially dependent on me, with nowhere really to turn. L advises against withdrawing financial support.
I figure that in that time, DB will have run its course. I will be as good as I can be with kids and myself. At that point, I will be ready to go.
A will be over or not. A will have broken public or not. OM will have filed or not. W will have discovered herself or not. W will be in a different place in the MLC/WAS spectrum or not. There will be a breakthrough or a break down. She will be some degree "better", or truly broken in my eyes.
So I guess where I am is that I have/will give this a year. Can it get worse? I think I'm up to any challenge. The real question is how to use that year most effectively. Perhaps I am foolish to think there will be positive change. I would love to get rid of the A, since nothing happens until that goes, but right now I don't see how to impact that.
And that is where I am open to suggestions. And 2x4 away if you want to. I'm pretty damned objective about all of this at this point, and will consider all kinds of ideas.
And feel free to make me reconsider core beliefs. I don't mind doing the introspection at all.
I guess I'm patient because I know my wife to be a really kind, generous person, and a wonderful mother. She is still that way to everyone else, except for a few people who are very pro-M and didn't buy into her blame fest. She has shelved them for now. She is targeting me as the root cause of everything now. I'm addressing what I know to be mine, and I hope that she will come to find that her stuff has always been hers to fix. I don't expect her to come back, but she might come through.
I'm also big on vows, a man of my word. If I D her, put the kids through that trauma and then she comes through, I'd regret that. I often wonder though if it will take a D to initiate any change.
Am I wrapped around her finger? Admittedly, but I do believe there is a point at which every game gets called for time. Can I see life without her? More clearly each day.
I still think that something has to give, so I think she's worth waiting for.
I mean, how long can A go on? OM calls her, she's cooing while he's only talking about meeting up, then they go for a 13 minute nooner, then he drives off. (13 minutes! ha! rank amateur! but still 13 minutes more than I'm getting) It's seems likely to me that he's in it for the sex and has no desire to D his family and then take on my young kids. At some point, does she wake up to the fact that she's being used?
Or maybe she knows he's just a diversion and it's really all about getting away from me. Who knows. You could overthink this stuff to death and get nowhere. I have a lot more enjoyment out of working with the kids and GALing; at least that is productive.
At times I almost have to laugh at the incongruous behavior. At times, when she's sobbing in her sleep, it pains me to see my W in such turmoil with no way to help. Her choices, her problem.
Of course, I always wonder if I could take a more productive approach to move the ball down the field.
And then there are other days when I think summer would be a good time to sell the house, and I start looking at real estate that would satisfy my needs better than the current house and keep the kids in the same school district. It's days like those when I realize that I am putting plans in place.
A lot of damage can happen in a year. I personally couldn't wait that long, but others have made it. Most men can only give it 3-6 months before losing not only their own emotional health, but their wife's attraction for them as well (since she knows that YOU know, if you remain too long without filing, there is real risk that your passivity can be an attraction-killer to her).
But everyone's situation is different. I just want you to consider what each subsequent month of her going in this direction might do to her -- and your family. It has to be balanced against the ALSO very real damage that DIVORCE can do to a family.
I appreciate what you're saying. Frankly, I think a year is too long as well, there's no way she's gaining any respect for me there. I can see another 3-6 max for her to see the changes of DB, and me hoping A ends.
If I go before 6 months, I'll take a beating. This is no-fault land. Adultery grounds almost always turn into no-fault. With only circumstantial evidence, She'll tell everyone I abandoned her and the kids. A? What A? boo hoo hoo.
If I make a move before A ends, about all I can do is ask her if she will stop A and go to MC (she won't), then ask her to x (and it doesn't matter what x is, she won't, you controlling SOB), then tell her that we're done, at which point I would have to file to have any credibility. Everybody loses.
only that way youll grow chances that she will ask you for salt again 
. Nice advice as always