Divorce on the table, Hoping for Miracle 2

[labug]

edit: you get your current residence and the debt (if any) on that

[NeedingMore]

HI Groov,

I have been finishing up moving and am finally in my new place completely, then I get really sick! UGH! Anyway that is just why I haven't been around the boards much. I am sorry to find your W still in her fog. I didn't feel like 2x4ing you about that text because I think it is important to test the waters as long as you don't read too much into what happens as a result. Chances are you will feel worse after testing but if you can keep positive even after a minor backslide, then it is time to test a bit. It will make you stronger. I am guessing you have been doing things right since she mentioned that you seemed happy. To me, her saying she wanted to see you happy is a way of saying to herself that if you are happy, she will be relieved of the guilt she feels for breaking up your family. Again, it is all about her. Which is why it is important for you to focus on you. Keep doing what you are doing. Update on your progress in working on yourself. What have you been up to? What has been making you feel good? What does Groov LIKE about his new life and sitch? What are the positives about it? How is your outward personality lining up with your heart these days? Are you doing what you love? Are you saying how you feel? Are you expressing your true intentions in ways that make you and those around you feel good? Who do you have to answer to at the end of the day? Who holds you to your word? Take the time to think about how you would answer each of those questions. STAY positive, its the better alternative. Hope this finds YOU well Groov...:)

[Groov]

W just sent me this email. This was after a discussion last week where I stumbled and listened and validated.

Groov:

I have thought a lot about what we discussed and why I was so upset by your attitude and your words.  You have made it clear what you want, but you do not seem to recognize that this divorce is moving forward.  So far, I have tried to be very generous with you.  I have offered you options that are extremely favorable and fair, even going so far as trying to give you the things that you expressed that you want.  After our conversation and your attitude, I am not sure you appreciate that, and how different things could be.

It seems to me that you perceive yourself a changed man, if that is the case, then surely you understand that you cannot erase the consequences of your choices for so many years.  You know what those are, I don't feel it necessary to elaborate. I have no desire to relive history or continue to remind you of our past pain.  My desires are that we can both move on as friends and partners in parenting for the very best future for our children.  This divorce will go much more smoothly if you choose to work with me, and not against me.  This would include things like not hiding commissions, not talking negatively about me to our friends and your family or causing pain to our children by telling them things like, I left without saying good bye or stories of your lengthy pursuit during our courtship. Such things will only cause pain and feelings of instability to our children.  This only stand to place a wedge between us and break down whatever good is remaining of our relationship.   Please believe me when I say that I do genuinely care about you and your happiness.  That despite the pasts pain and struggles, and the presents sting of your slandering my name to whomever you feel appropriate, this journey that we have traveled together has taught me a great deal, and I have no malice toward you.  Do not doubt for one second though,  that if you persist in these behaviors that there will be consequences to those choices in addition to those that we are both currently enduring.  None of which I ever wanted or deserved.

Let me be very clear about what that means: Instead of an uncontested,  modest, private divorce and genuinely taking into consideration the things that you or I want (ie, childsupport negotiation,  the condo,  alimony,  etc) we will sit down to mediation and likely before a judge.   These are the things that I will pursue: liquidation of all assets to reach a truely equitable 50/50 split.  Full child support with back support, full alimony, joint legal custody and primary physical custody.  Either way we do this,  I need you to understand that I do NOT feel that it is in the best interest of our children at this age, to bounce back and forth in a physical 50/50, and be unnecessarily placed in daycare or an after school program when they can be in the home and with their mother.

For the last eight months I have worked and sacrificed to avoid that with minimal support from you, and I'm saddened that you would so casually throw that out as "in the best interest of the children" scenario.  As a mother,  my primary responsibility in this life is to the nurturing and development of our children.  It is my divine gift and privilege, one that I will not relinquish.  I did not deserve the years of neglect, critisim and emotional abuse that came as a result of your selfindulgent choices and behaviors.  I loved you,  I supported you,  I was kind and charitable to you and your family.  I considered your needs and feelings in all of my actions,  and considered with respect and love the counsels that you gave me,  some of which belittled and robbed me of my to exercise my God given gifts toward service and charity.  I honored and followed you as the priesthood leader in our home despite the fact that you refused relationship strengthening activities like family activities, scripture study and temple attendance.  I will not make those mistakes again, and I will exhaust every last resource at my disposal to fulfill my roll as mother, as designed by God, and through the eyes of the law, in spite of this unfortunate eventuality . 

I do not wish for there to be more pain than necessary, but if you continue certain unproductive and destructive behaviors,  you will force me to pursue my rights aggressively. With my rights as a mother on the line, I will fight with everything I can.

I think that you sensed seriousness of our situation and my frustration and hopefully you understand my resolve.  

Again, I reiterate that I do NOT wish for this to go that way.  I want to resolve things peacefully and with dignity, and I think that you'd agree that every step I have taken to this point reflects that desire and hope.  It does take two to accomplish that though.

Please consider carefully this email. If you've truly spoken with legal counsel, than you already know that what I'm suggesting is more than fair and will likely come to pass weather we agree on our own or it's mandated by a judge.  However the latter would be significantly more costly.  I saw an old friend today who told me that they paid over 40k in legal fees and now have a lien on their home as a result.  Surely that eventuality is not in any of our best interests.

You have twenty four hours to respond as to which way you'd like to proceed.  I have given you a great deal of time to consider things. If you choose not to respond I will schedule a meditation date, and will then file with the court.  This will start the process, but will then start us down the more costly path.  Please consider and let me know.

Thanks,

Wife

[Groov]

My unsent response that I would like my fellow dbers response on:


Dear Wife,

I am truly sorry you feel this way.  I see that this is what you want. I have been using the time given carefully and prayerfully.  I appreciate your patience and flexibility.

Please provide the details of the parenting plan and custody arrangements as you see it.

Please provide the child support calculations as you see it.

I hope we can come to an agreement.

If you are on board with me keeping the condo,   then put it in writing so I can look at the financing options.

I am a great father, a great husband, and a wonderful and willing man.   Mostly I am human.

Respectfully,

Groov

P.s.
I have cashed one and only one commission ($4000) check,  which has gone towards tithing, counseling an a few household items including christmas, clothes, and other misc for the kids.

[Groov]

Stumbled* meaning STFU

[ye21]

Ok first its first, I dont know if what she says its real or not... But whatever you did, its not gonna change the situation.
Now, have you read Sandi rules? More important, are you using them?
If not, its time to start using them.
And again the word of the day... ACCEPTANCE, this is where she is right now and it doesnt matter if you like it or not, its not your job to judge her, there is no right or wrong, just accept that she want this at this point.

You didnt do mistakes, because there are no mistakes in life only great spiritual oportunities, take them and you will grow,

She wants a response by tomorrow right? And she is giving you choices, dont focus in defending yourself, she is not judging you...she is just stating her opinion, you might like it or not but at the end its her opinion and considering the fact that she is a human being...her opinion at least for her its completely valid.

Here is where you can see how feelings play and the fear comes up turning into anger...

After all that she said on her email you choose only the path of anger... She told you at the beginning: we can work out all of this smoothly and in a friendly way...

What about you accepting her choice and give her that part that you swear to her once: in hapiness and sadness, in good and bad ( real meaning its I will accept you and love you always no matter what)

There is where your real you is, the one with unconditional love, the one who cares about yourself, because if this ends in lawyers and court, emotionally that might hurt you more and your first mission its always take care of yourself and love yourself.

This will be my email:

Dear bla bla bla

Thank you for your email.
I appreciate your willingness to work out all this in a smoothly way and thats the way I choose to do it.

I will seat down and spend time thinking about what are my choices in this matters that will benefit and make things the less painful possible for the kids and myself.

Thank you for giving me that time and I will keep updating you when in doubts of whats best for all of us.


And leave it like that, no need to reinforce her with the idea that you are a good or bad father, or husband or whatever... Once you accept yourself the way you are you will be able to see all this a little more clear.

You are fine and you are right where you need to be, God its doing for you what you cant do for yourself so just relax, open your heart and let love guide you...

Its easy to hate or not hate...and its easy to love when things are smooth, but when things are rolling in a different direction in a different way we want them to roll, then there , right there is where you can show your real, trully and unconditional love

[Bunches]

I think its to the point, but the one line "I am a great father, a great husband, and a wonderful and willing man. Mostly I am human." This seems defensive. I'm sure its only meant as getting across a point of view but I don't know that it serves any real purpose. I don't know her so I don't know her reaction to that, but I'm sure you do.

[Mach1]

Groov...

Apologies first, as I am not up on your entire sitch...


I think I would send something along the lines of....



Wife,

I just wanted you to know that I have received and read your email.

What we are discussing is a life changing event, and I feel as if I need more than 24 hours to decide "yes" or "no".

And while we have discussed most of the terms that you are demanding, and this is mostly black and white, I would like to read your thoughts once again, laid out as you see them playing out in real life.

I am not against you, I am just trying to do what is best for me.

Thanks

Groov


She is showing signs of serious buttons that you seem to push with her. And every time that you push one, she jumps onto her moral soapbox and passes judgment onto you.

Groov, she is trying to bully you here into something that you did not want.

I would suspect that somewhere deep inside of her, she knows that IF you were to pursue this, what she thinks will happen, probably won't happen.

Do NOT jump into something that isn't right for you and your situation. Try to NOT push the child button, or her Mother button, that seems to really put her on her soapbox...

What do YOU need to happen ???

Come up with your plan, which doesn't depend on her plan....

Life won't always be the bowl of cherries that she thinks that it will be...

It's not up to you to give her that though.

Every time that she hits you with a load of BS, hit her back with a dose of reality...

Have you consulted an attorney ?

[NeedingMore]

Groov! I am so glad that I checked in tonight.

Wow, I don't even know you guys and reading this e-mail made ME feel like defending you!

OK...I am thinking this through as I write and trying to think about my ex husband and the custody portion of our divorce that is still to this day being decided and finalized.

I do not know the gravity of what went on and what "pain" she speaks of...except for the way she depicted it through this email, as this is the first real insight she has given. I do believe that she truly feels these things and has been hurt, obviously very deeply and enough to do what she is doing.

This e-mail gives me hope! She does not believe you have changed. HAVE YOU?? I believe you have, but again, I do not know you. No matter what, this situation is going to take some time and you still need time. Like someone else said, you have been challenged to prove yourself a changed man by your response here.

I too believe that she is BSing you. My ex does this to me. I know he never did his research though and your W sounds like she has. The problem here is that no matter who was hurt in the marriage, you have rights to your children and to be the father that God has gifted you to be, just as much as she does as a mother. Of course, as mothers we want our cake and to eat it too when it comes to custody. In my situation, my ex has been abusive, and shows major signs of emotional instability. From the description you give of your efforts, I do not hold you in the same category there.

After following your sitch, my advice to you is to:

A. Take out the "defensive" line in your response.

B. Tell her you wish for the same, the best for everyone.

C. Take this opportunity to apologize for the pain that you have caused her in the past. Only do this if you mean it. (I know you do). Tell her that you know you have been challenged by this situation so that you could change and that you are glad that this is happening for that very reason. Tell her that you do not wish to make anything more difficult and that although time has passed, this situation is one of the most difficult things that anyone can go through. Tell her it is THE most difficult thing you have gone through. Let her know that you are confident in your joint ability to come to an agreement and that you are willing to do whatever it takes, with the exception of anything that will make it more difficult to be a part of your childrens' lives.

Don't just agree to everything she demands. She is testing you. What is the deal with the "slander" part? IS this coming from the OM's ex?? Is there any truth to that?

I would also consider saying something that validates what she said about being dignified in her approach thus far. Like I said, I don't know her..and my instinct is to defend...but this is like a screaming chance for you to validate everything that she has wrestled with in getting to where things are. You have wondered what is going on in her head all this time. There it is. VALIDATE with LOVE. LOVING intention in every answer. Humble yourself, but let her know with more time things will work out smoothly. This is also your chance to ease her concerns just as a supportive husband should. Just don't sacrifice or agree to anything until you have to by law. Don't be afraid of her threats financially. You are always in control over how much you pay out for this stuff, meaning...if you have to play hard ball, you have to play hardball and it looks like she is very worried about that...enough to threaten you. Match that in your mind.

I was thinking about this as I wrote it out...hope it comes across...validate everything agree to mothing. Be loving.

Let us know what happens.

Take care Groov. This too shall pass

[Groov]

NM, Mach thanks,

Thank you! I basically replied with what Mach said to keep it simple and acknowledge her email.

NM,
I am also going to write a validating email and really appreciate that time you have taken to think this through with your perspective.

W is having fear, she is having money problems and feels that I haven't been supportive. We still have joint accounts... Anyway, Damned if I do and Damned if I don't.

Groov