Now a little response to the other questions... Having an A its a choice, its not good or wrong, after that being said I never told anybody to clap to the spouse that had the affair, you can accept it or you can not, its your choice. What I am saying is that, if a spouse has an affair and doesnt want to work in the R at that point, no matter what you want or believe, that spouse its not gonna change the choice... Affairs hurt relationships, yes they do, but this is easy, either you come here looking for help and follow DB and the advice or you fill for D and move on, not looking back because the spouse had an affair....
Again unconditional love means I love you no matter what decissions you do take or not take, once you GAL and work on yourself and love yourself unconditionally you have a choice.... Either you stay on that M or you assume its over because of the A and move on with your life.
I underestand you have values and you want boundaries, boundaries are for you in your life not for others.... If your W comes back and beat the kids you dont have to accept that, if she keeps texting the OM you dont have to accept that and so on... And if she decides she is not going to change that then you can choose to end the R because doesnt fill you the way you want.
Just reread your responses of what I said before, its not that complicate lets see:
Ye, I did not suggest any system of beliefs or values, only that she was committed to work on things. I am open to differing perspectives and interpretations. You are mind reading judgement.
Ok, now she doesnt want to commit at this point...options you have? Take it or leave it, no other option, its hard but its reality.
Again, not what I said. I didn't stop loving her. The dynamic changed, and I can see where problems arose because of that shift that should have been addressed.
Yes my friend, thats life...dynamics change all the time, but if you love yourself you accept those changes, is it change what scares you? Then work on how to accept change without messing your hair...the life of everybody in this forum changed, you are not special, and everybody adapted themselves to the change, you will too, sooner or later but you will.
I don't see this as an acceptance issue. It has to do with new problems that arise in new situations, and failing to alter the response. In that respect, if any couple changes the family dynamic, are faced with unfamiliar issues and don't respond appropriately, then yes, they put their R at risk.
Again, is it change what scares you? Look deeper, when you were a child, in your family...did it was many changes? Did your family moved a lot or divorce or something changed often or drastically?
You mention unconditional love. That is thought provoking. I love her enough to stand by her through A and work for my M and family. Would I accept an open marriage in the name of unconditional love? No, I think I'd rather move on. Haven't crossed that bridge yet, though. Does that make me guilty of not loving her unconditionally? Sounds like you think so.
When did I say that love unconditionally means to stay in the R when they have an affair?? You can love unconditionally a person and not be compatible in a R so then you are better D, the same way you dont stand by her while she is having an A, I never said that, I am telling you, you dedicate this time to yourself, to work on you despite what she does and you continue to take care of your kids, whatever she does its her problem...
I was quite happy in my R. Obliviously so. It is only now in the post analysis, that I am trying to figure out what I contributed to its demise. If I had been more self conscious then, clearly I would have corrected and avoided all this. But I wasn't.
Many people were perfectly fine and their S walk away still...things you dont like on you are for you to correct, not for others, she choosed something, and you are absolutelly not responsable for the choice others do.... Unless you are an abusser or have mental issues which I think you dont have that...
I don't see how you could deal with someone dealing in bad faith. I think that unconditional love can make you LRT patiently for a long time for W to get to a point of being willing to deal in good faith. But I don't think you go forever in an open M, dealing in bad faith, in the name of unconditional love. You have to be true to some minimal common value system.
You dont have to...accept that the faith they have now its not what will make any strong point between you 2, meanwhile work on yourself GAL and move on, they might or not come back with another faith that suits you better and then it will be your choice to accept it or not.
I feel you man, trust me, this is not an easy situation, and I had never said to accept all they do, I am saying, accept the situation, thats the point where your W its right now and nothing will change by you fighting that, you have to step out of this situation untill you see things in a more clear way, it looks like now your feelings cant let you see this in a more productive way... Once you start loving yourself and GAL you will let clarity take place and at that point you will be the one running your show, you will be able to say what you want and how you want it.... Its too early to believe that you can choose clearly...thats my .02 there
When the student its ready, the teacher will appear... Even after all this time the sun never says to the Earth, "You owe me." Look what happens with a love like that,It lights the whole sky.
I think it based on this interaction in Tarheel's thread, in which you seemed to be suggesting a more aggressive approach to a cake eating W. The DR approach is pretty passive, basically you wait out the A, because you are in essentially a position of little to no leverage. So I wanted to know how you really could reasonably act on your decision that you deserved more and weren't going to take crap, besides the nuclear option.
I'm sure I've misunderstood either the comment or how one would do that. That was why I was seeking clarification.
I am still trying to understand how you think I am going against what is listed under Sandi's rules. I remember nothing in the rules that suggest being passive. Is there something I've said in a post that suggest I contradict myself? I will try to clarify anything I have said, to the best of my ability.
I do personally believe in a more aggressive approach, instead of being passive and serving cake to the WAW who refuses to end her A.
If you will observe the ones who encourage the more passive approach to DBing here on the board, I think you will find it is other LBS giving that advice to each other. I have never seen a WAW here on the board tell a LBH he should act like little bo peep with his W who refuses to end an affair. Never! If anything, we are much tougher on the WAW's than the majority of the LBH's here, b/c we "know" how that mind/heart works. We know that being afraid of the W and/or serving her cake is almost the worst thing he could do to save his R. But there are such a few of the WAW's who come here.
As I said in the other thread, I believe the LBH should have a plan of action. Reacting on an emotional impulse, or doing something to get a response from the WAW....is not a plan of action. He needs to know what is most important, list his priorities, secure his finances, seek legal counsel, and protect himself and his children. Those are just the first items that come to mind. But that's what I mean by having some plan of action. A man should know what he can't live without, and won't he won't live with.
The epitome of disrespect for her H is for a W to have an A. But I maintain that she started feeling disrespect for him as a man before she ever saw OM. From what I have observed over the years, the majority suffer from a lack of attraction....which often leads to SSM. (I have read a few that claim their sex life was fine up till the A.)
I don't want to repeat a lot of what I said on the other thread, except to emphasize that a woman has to feel respect for her H before she can have those deep, sexual, loving feelings H's want from the W. Of course, there are other things that can happen in the MR to cause problems, but this such a common one that men could correct if they would take the right approach. That's why he needs to look at himself to see how he's changed since M, and what he needs to do to improve. Not kiss her rear, not make things easy for her, not declare his undying commitment to her, not by housecleaning, and not by talks.
I don't want any LBS to misunderstand and think tough love is being mean, cold, angry, ugly, throwing a fit, etc. It takes a lot of strength to show tough love and stick to your guns. It is not for the weak. A few men actually "get it" and have the wisdom and courage to apply it. But please don't think that DBing is all about doormat behavior and being the fearful, passive LBS who just accepts whatever conduct the WAS chooses to have. Our decisions and choices have consequences. The WAW
I don't agree with some people about unconditional love in M. I don't agree about judging. But everyone has their own opinions.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Our decisions and choices have consequences. The WAW in a A, needs to face consequences of her choices. That's doesn't mean it's your job to punish her or even tell her what all those consequences might be. I'm just saying she will need to be taught her actions do have consequences. That may not been seen as the more popular side of DBing, IDK, but it is what I have seen that works.
The WAW in an A needs to realize she has lost something valuable. It won't be the same to everyone. You may never know what "it" is to your W. But every one needs to suffer some type of loss before they come to terms with their wayward actions . The waywardness is a rebellion. And that takes us back where we started with the lack of respect.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I just reread the rules, and I agree, there is nothing in there that precludes a more aggressive approach.
I had thought of them as passive, but as you suggest, I likely picked that up from reading posts, rather than reading the rules.
I may also have been interpreting "give them space" as "Don't pressure them." I think a more aggressive approach would definitely pressure them. "Don't pressure them" is not on the list.
I agree W has to realize she has lost something to end A.
Quote:
As I said in the other thread, I believe the LBH should have a plan of action. Reacting on an emotional impulse, or doing something to get a response from the WAW....is not a plan of action. He needs to know what is most important, list his priorities, secure his finances, seek legal counsel, and protect himself and his children. Those are just the first items that come to mind. But that's what I mean by having some plan of action. A man should know what he can't live without, and won't he won't live with.
Personally, my finances are secure (complaint was she never had access to them), legal counsel has been sought, children are fine.
I'll really have to give more thought to a plan of action and my limits.
I would like her to leave the marital bed as long as A is on. That may seem petty or controlling, but to me it is hugely symbolic; that bed belongs to me and my wife, not OM's mistress, and it would be something that would be completely in her control to remedy, and a daily reminder of her choice.
Legally I can't stop supporting her, and I don't want her out of the house away from the kids during all this, but I don't have to have her in my bed, listening to endless Adele misery songs all night.
I may also have been interpreting "give them space" as "Don't pressure them." I think a more aggressive approach would definitely pressure them. "Don't pressure them" is not on the list.
There are a lot of things that are not on that list. Those were written off the top of my head to a LBH in a post, then it started getting passed around, and thus nicknamed Sandi's rules. They aren't rules at all, but just some do and do not tips. If I had know beforehand. I would have done a much better job.
I do want to comment about putting pressure on her. What I advise against is pressure from the H perusing the WAW while she's in an A. Pressure from him smothering her with his attention and presence. Pressure from him initiating R talks, and several other things along these lines. That is what I mean by putting pressure on her. I am not referring to the pressure of consequences or pressures from the H standing up and making firm decisions to protect himself, his children, and his home, etc. I am not talking about pressure she experiences as direct or indirect consequences of her A.
I don't really like to use the word "aggressive" b/c many people immediately relate it negatively. But can you see the difference with these few examples?
I had never even thought about anyone seeing the list as being passive actions, b/c it can be used as a guide to the LRT. But one size doesn't fit all stitches. Everyone thinks their stitch is unique, so if that's the case, they have to figure out what works and what doesn't.
About wanting her to leave the marital bedroom........just be sure you aren't the one to move out to sleep elsewhere. And if you ask her......he11 may freeze over before she returns, so think carefully before making that decision. I am not saying you are wrong in how you feel. It is a personal decision. But you may regret it later.
If you have not stuck to the list, or one like it, then I suggest you do that first. If you aren't able to adhere to those........then how can you do more?
I suggest you think more about putting clear boundaries in place. Not as a tool to control or punish your W, but it is set to protect your family. Be certain you understand the true definition and purpose before you start slinging the term around her. You want it to be effective. And by all means, once stated......you best stick by it. Think ahead before you say what they are. What will be the consequences if they are not honored? This is one type of "aggressive" approach I advise to the LBS.
Do you have goals set for yousel? Not her, but you1. Don't set a personal goal and say something like, "For my W to give me a kiss by the end of the week". That would be about her actions, not yours.
What are you doing to GAL?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Clap clap clap Sandi I could not agree more with you...spectacular and super helpfull post glad you belong to this forum.
When the student its ready, the teacher will appear... Even after all this time the sun never says to the Earth, "You owe me." Look what happens with a love like that,It lights the whole sky.
But can you see the difference with these few examples?
Yes this is very clear, and indeed what I meant. Pressure from consequences, not from me pursuing. "Aggressive" does have negative connotations and isn't the appropriate word here.
As it is now, there have been few consequences for A.
She hasn't the means to leave or anywhere to go, and every legal right to stay, so I don't know that it would serve any purpose to ask her to go.
She is upset that I won't give her access to money, except a budgeted amount on her credit card each month. That's one I clearly told her I won't work with her on until she is committed to work on M. (and very carefully even then.)
She's always overspent, I've just put her on a budget and stopped rescuing her. I've told her I won't ruin my credit rating and I will make sure I keep the house paid for and warm and the kids in food and clothes. There will be consequences when she hits her credit limit next month. I will not rescue her.
I had considered cutting what I pay on her credit card down to what it take to cover grocery/kid expenses, but that would would be controlling and punitive. Also, I do want her to succeed at her job for many reasons including income, so the job startup costs are in my best interest. It's just paying for the Brazilian that's infuriating.
About the marital bedroom... I would never make the mistake of leaving. It seems like a natural consequence of A is that you forfeit that bed. She would have to explain/lie to kids why she wasn't in our room, or worse, she would start bunking with the kids under God knows what premise.
Quote:
I suggest you think more about putting clear boundaries in place.
Agreed - I have to understand boundaries/consequences better. I think I know my limits, it's just structuring things effectively - can anyone suggest any good reading?
Quote:
Do you have goals set for yourself?
I do need more refined short term goals, I'll admit.
One is to get out of the house more GALing, being less "always available" and a little more intriguing.
Been focused on expanding 180s based mainly around complaints she yelled at me on BD: - staying off my computer when kids are around - doing more things with kids - cooking with them, playing games with them, taking them skiing, being the homework master. - spending a lot of time with D12 being cry-on-my-shoulder daddy as she goes through all the issues that come at that age.
Quote:
What are you doing to GAL?
- got a ski membership and go when I want to - take kids when they'll come - work out daily - I'm back to wedding weight but much more fit - getting new friends that aren't her friends or our friends but my friends. - joined a wine society and go out to dinner once a week - great group - joined a French conversation group because I miss not using my other language regularly.
When I stick to LRT, work on GAL stuff and kids, and don't look at WAW as W, I do alright, it's been easy to stay detached and keep PMA. My problem lately is that I think that I am just enabling A even more.
My 180s are to spend more time with kids; helping support W as she starts new career by cooking on weekends and taking care of some of the housework.
My greater involvement around the house and with the kids has been good; I'm becoming the supportive H I always should have been. The man only a fool would leave.
But now I've got the kids covered, and I continue to foot all the bills. So she has less responsibility, and no consequences. That's why I think I'm enabling cake-eating.
I've considered consulting L as to how far I can turn the financial screws. "While A, won't pay." I fear that forcing her to a decision in that way would be counterproductive. Or that she would make a "decision of convenience" to get the money flowing again.
I also believe that everything is not rosy in A-land right now. While that doesn't mean I'm back in, it encourages me to be patient.
I believe a man needs to stay balanced about the house chores and cooking. Too many LBH'S go to extremes and do everything so that the W doesn't have any of it to do. I believe that is a big mistake.
If the MR was healthy, and you were doing more to help her out sometimes, it would probably be appreciated. But if you are stuck home doing the work while it frees her up to have more attention on OM, I don't think you are accomplishing much.
I understand the philosophy behind being a man only a fool would leave. But do you realize that a WAW in an A is a fool? If you cook and clean house for her, she will not appreciate you for doing it. In fact, the frame of mind that most WAW'S in an A are in...is more like they think if you are crazy enough to do all the work, have at it. Or they feel you should be doing it to pay them for all the Years they did it. Whatever........but the point is that they seldom appreciate "you" for doing it for them. If that makes sense. You won't make any brownie points with her.
I suggest that what you do is strictly for you and the children. I am just not big into "showing support" when there is an affair. Hopefully, when the A ends and the M is R, you will be able to give her support. She will need it.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
glad you belong to this forum.