I'm in, wife's out

[trc2009]

Also, Day 19 of no discussions turning into an argument/fight. This week has probably been the most trying in that regard.

I'm pretty sure I found out why she was being pissy with me on Sunday. Long story short, she got caught in a bit of a lie. It's not a HUGE thing but she was kind of playing both sides of the coin with a couple friends of ours (husband & wife). W said friend said something, I was talking to her husband about it not long after we separated who told his wife and his wife said she never said that....blah, blah, blah. Well, friends wife texted my W that she didn't appreciate her lying to me about something she said (her husband called me to apologize and didn't mean to get me into trouble. Told him no harm, no foul......women are crazy).

So W was mad at me that I told him what she said even though she was the one that lied. Haven't talked to W at all about it but CLEARLY that's what her issue was with me. Again, going back to her comments on Sunday about her having to be careful what she says to me. The stars lined up WAYYY to well for that not to be true.

Which makes me laugh. And W knows not to even bring it up because she knows she's wrong. She lied and is mad that I facilitated her getting caught in her own lie (even though I didn't even mean to....I thought she was just telling me the truth).

[25yearsmlc]

How does one resist the urge to say during a separation, "You want out? Get out!" Essentially, kicking her out.

That's a daily struggle for me.

Stop letting your anger play such a huge HUGE role in your life. You're not well served by it.

You are here in large part b/c of it. I would not look to your anger and resentment for guidance. Nor would I concern myself at all with the possible EA with OM who isn't really a threat. I mean, talk about deflecting away from your own work...

Focus on yourself a whole lot more. Stay in your "sandbox" and out of hers. That's where I'd start if I were in your shoes.

And it's also where I'd end up being-- in MY own sandbox working on MY own stuff.

It's not the spouses job to "teach a lesson" to a WAS or to "show them the consequences of their choices". Those are euphemisms we use to tell ourselves it's okay, but in reality we are simply punishing our spouses for rejecting us, even when in their eyes, we have rejected/critisized them for a long time...so it's more of the same old us...

As my DB coach said

LIFE teaches them lessons/shows consequences. Not us.

And no offense but You have a lot of stuff in your sandbox to work on...the temper and the punitive nature of your posts here, along with the frequent comments about issues other than yours, do not bode well. They reek of control issues.

Your wife fears if she returns to the marriage, she'll be hurt again. You need to get that.

The "Secret" here is that a
[b]
WAS only returns to a marriage

IF they believe it can be a better/different marriage than before.

What evidence does she have, of that? What are YOU DOING (not saying) to show change on your end?


.[/b]

[25yearsmlc]

Hello...get ready for some 2 x 4's I hope you sort of welcome b/c if all we do here is focus on her, you won't get anywhere.

She said "it's NOT final, but I'm leaning towards divorce"...to me that's incredibly positive this soon after dropping a D bomb. I don't know why you are so insistent on reading that as a negative...unless that's how you view things with her....(hmm?)

and of course she's afraid of you and that you'd revert to old ways if you two reconcile too soon. I mean, of course.

Also, the whole "MLC vs WAW" is, imo, a waste of time. IT does not change your course of action, and it means you are analyzing her instead of working on yourself.
It's a deflection away from the one thing you can and should control, which is YOU. It's not a constructive use of your time. I know b/c I wasted a good year of my life wondering about what my h was doing/thinking/planning/feeling...I could have spent that time on ME and MY work and taking care of and being fully present for our children. What a waste of that year...

You sound confused to me, quite often. That's natural. But so is she....
See the confusion as the positive it is b/c if she were "positive" she wanted a divorce, there would be no confusion. you WANT her to be confused b/c it means you have a chance to demonstrate your changes.

The more you challenge her choices, the more you force her to defend them. And let's face it, you two fought A LOT, and that ate away at her more than you seem to realize. Esepecially since you were her primary source of adult interaction. She's home all day with a 5 y/o and a 2 y/o and you come home and instead of relief, she gets more conflict. Dang what a nightmare for her.

She is not perfect. We get it. But she is already working on herself (hence the IC) and

You are the one here trying to save the m, not her. None of us (or you) can fix her. No point in trying.

So lets focus on YOU...okay?

Have had a decent couple of days. Both of us were pretty tired yesterday but I came over to watch the kids for a few hours while she went grocery shopping and left not long after.

She did say she texted her friend to see what IC her husband went to and see if it's one he would recommend. I feel keeping her in the loop with that is essential because she's kept me in the loop for the most part w/ her IC.

Again, I'm going for issues with losing my temper with her. It's only happened a few times in our time together and it never led to me hitting her or anything like that. BUT, when I lose my temper I can very much see how scary and intimidating that could be for her.

I'm glad you say this^^ but I sure hope you "REALLY get it". It's a much bigger deal to women than to a man. You're physically bigger than her. Underlying any temper issues is the simple reality that you can hurt her a whole lot more than she can hurt you, physically. NEVER forget that.


I have to learn to calm myself down before I ever get to that point. Again, it's not a regular thing and lord knows each of those times I had a right to be angry or frustrated at her. But never to a point of losing my temper.

Why even mention that "Lord knows I had A RIGHT to be angry"??? More of the old you showing that you were "mostly right"....Here's a newsflash....We ALL GET ANGRY/FRUSTRATED. That's called life.

It's your job to manage that and by the age of 32, it's pretty crazy to still "lose your $hit" ever, not to mention that you are still defending it. Stop that. For your children's sake, your sake and your m's.


My two goals now are this.

#1 No conversations that devolve into arguments/fights.
#2 See an IC for my temper issues and keep her informed with how that is going. Obviously I'm doing it for myself but I am for her as well. I actually think this could be a deal breaker for her.

TRC, it is absolutely a deal breaker for her. And it would be for me, and every single healthy woman I know. Wrap your brain around the importance of this, please.


#1 is going splendidly. We're now on Day 14 of no conversations devolving into an argument. Our conversations for the most part are kind and civilized. The last two weeks have easily been the best two weeks since we separated.

That^^ is good news. You need her to feel more relaxed around you and then build from that.

Again on Sunday, she said it wasn't her final decision but she's still leaning toward D. Which is a good/bad thing I think.

See above^^. It'a s positive. IF she said she wanted to work on the m NOW, as you both are, I would not believe she was sure. NOR would it work.

This will take time to do it and have it last. Far too many couples around here try to reconcile without new tools. So they revert at the first stressor, which life always gives us. There's no downside to piecing slowly but a huge risk to rushing it.

I suggest if the time comes or IF she is willing, you attend Retrovaille. IT's a workshop/retreat for marriages in crisis and will give you both new tools for handling conflict. It cannot hurt and it has some impressive results.


If anything, it means she just isn't sure that we're going to slip back into the cycle we were in from 1/2/14 - 1/25/14 that led to the separation.

Um, you think those ^^ are the "bad" 3 weeks of the m but she probably is listing years of it...

I guess if we end the separation, there will probably have to be a leap of faith that we won't ever go back there.

Some faith and new TOOLS are the keys here. How are your coping skills growing?


#2 I'm hoping to have an appt. setup by early next week. This is a must. I should have done this a few years ago the first time I lost my temper with her.

Yes it is a must. Keep at it. Stay in your sandbox and out of hers. Don't go on Facebook. Period. Leave it alone.

don't show her the anger you frequently feel. Show her the new mature you.

Stop the obsessing about any EA/OMs, etc. Put a stop sign in your head the next time you start venturing there...

And Just be the better choice. Inner contentment will radiate from within...being miserable around her is not going to make you more appealing.

However, fyi, No woman is unmoved by the loving interaction between her children and their father.

MANY women stay in their m's because the h is a good provider and father. It's a turn on to see the kids and their dad loving each other.

Be the best dad you can be, and become a man only a fool would leave.

[25yearsmlc]

Also, Day 19 of no discussions turning into an argument/fight. This week has probably been the most trying in that regard.

I'm pretty sure I found out why she was being pissy with me on Sunday.

mind reading...

Long story short, she got caught in a bit of a lie. It's not a HUGE thing

Then drop it. Stop keeping a record of wrongs. It's a score card and it never helps a marriage. Ever. Besides, she has her own scorecard and on that, you are way behind. Lose the scorecard.


but she was kind of playing both sides of the coin with a couple friends of ours (husband & wife).

OMG, more mind reading and none of your business as well. Why are you letting this petty stuff happen, at all?

W said friend said something, I was talking to her husband about it not long after we separated who told his wife and his wife said she never said that....blah, blah, blah. Well, friends wife texted my W that she didn't appreciate her lying to me about something she said (her husband called me to apologize and didn't mean to get me into trouble. Told him no harm, no foul......women are crazy).

read your ^words again...how do you feel about how you described the event?


So W was mad at me that I told him what she said even though she was the one that lied. Haven't talked to W at all about it

^^Wow, You assume here, you mind read here, & you have NOT communicated at all with your w about it. So there's no way you know what she feels/thinks. YOU are being unfair, negative, and unproductive in this situation. Move on.. I am going to look at the rest of your comments in this one post and cross through what you have no control over, or what is not your business AND OR where you are mind reading...

but CLEARLY that's what her issue was with me. Again, going back to her comments on Sunday about her having to be careful what she says to me. The stars lined up WAYYY to well for that not to be true.

Which makes me laugh. And W knows not to even bring it up because she knows she's wrong. She lied and is mad that I facilitated her getting caught in her own lie (even though I didn't even mean to....I thought she was just telling me the truth).

Does that clarify anything for you, about you?

[trc2009]

25, thank you for the time you spent responding. Let me address some of the things you mentioned before I give an update.

-I agree that I'm letting her kind of rule over me. I've had a habit of worrying too much about what she's thinking/doing. I've done a better job of not projecting that onto her over the last several weeks, but I still think about it more than I should.

-Her not saying she hasn't decided she wants a D is a very good sign. Agree 100%. I've read so many stories on here about spouses being pretty certain that divorce is what they want. My w hasn't indicated that to me at all. She has just more or less said it's a possibility.

-I'll address this a little more in my update post but ending the separation came up over the weekend and her safety issues are ultimately the issue at hand here. Like you said, me reverting to my old ways.

-Oh yes, I would definitely say I'm confused. I personally think I'm overthinking a lot of things. I would agree that my W is probably confused as well. But she acts like she is so great and that she's as happy as she's been in years. THAT has me terribly confused.

-I think I've actually done a very good job of not challenging her choices the last several weeks. I haven't pushed her, asked for clarity, reassurance, or anything like that. I've simply given her space. And we've actually gotten along very well over the period of the last few weeks. I think a lot of that is due to the fact that I haven't been pressuring her or pursuing her.

-I'm going to a new IC on Wednesday. An actual PHD and not a counsellor. She came highly recommended. W knows about it.

[trc2009]

Day 24 of not conversations devolving into a fight/argument.

I had the kids over the weekend and had a wonderful time. I can't begin to tell you guys how much better they make me feel. Just being around them for a few days gives me so much more energy.

W came back to the house yesterday. Two weeks ago she had asked me about how I was feeling about the separation and I told her that I wasn't sure how I was feeling about it and that I needed more time. Yesterday we got the kids down for a nap and W asked me how I was doing. I told her that I've been doing very well and that I have an answer about how I was feeling about the separation.

I told her that I think it served it's purpose of giving us both a break from each other in order to reduce the endless cycle of fighting/shaming each other. BUT, I said that if she isn't ready for it to end that I have no desire to end it.

We talked for a while and talked about several topics. It never devolved into an argument/fight but there were tears a few times. We talked about me seeing an IC this Wednesday. She indicated how important that was for her but made sure to stress that even if I go there is no guarantee that it will change anything. I told her that I understand that and that I'm going for myself because I have to learn how to not get so upset that I have a violent outburst.

We talked for several more hours. The thought of D I don't think is as scary to her as it was. In fact if I were to say today that I wanted a divorce I think she'd be relieved. BUT, she did say things that indicated she's not ready to give up. We talked about the separation and that it doesn't make sense for it to drag on for months and months if we are genuinely getting along. I mentioned that I feel the separation has been beneficial for both of us but if we REALLY want to try to work on our marriage, we would probably have to do that under the same roof. She didn't really respond to that but I was literally getting ready to walk out the door to head over to my parents and she stopped me. She said that she agrees with that. She said she hadn't really thought about that but it makes sense to her.

That was a HUGE statement. Absolutely HUGE. She even said the words, "I'm extending an olive branch here." I could tell it was a scary thought for her though because I haven't seen my IC yet. And even then, she is afraid that I will revert at some point to old behaviors. I validated that for several minutes. She was a breathe away from asking me to stay. I told her that if she isn't ready to try that yet that I don't want to do it at this point. She has to be ready. She said she may never be ready but agreed that a leap of faith would probably have to happen.

We talked for a bit longer and she said she'd like me to go to a couple of IC sessions first and then we can see how she's feeling about it. Which is perfectly fine with me. In this, I understand that there is no rushing her. She said she doesn't want to give me any false hope that by us living under the same roof that things will get better. We'll still be "separated," but under the same roof. Which is kind of what I figured would happen if we did start living together again. Different beds and no physical contact for a while.

It all comes down to her safety issues. It would probably take a while for us living under the same roof before she can start to take down her wall (which she admitted yesterday that she's built a huge wall around herself).

All in all, it was a long, exhausting conversation. There were a few times when it could have devolved into a finger pointing match. She got defensive a few times, I got defensive a few times. But neither of us lost our cool and when I left the house we were both laughing together at our kids playing in the living room. There are far worse ways to leave conversations like that.

So I guess it was a positive step yesterday. It at least indicated to me that she does have a desire to try but just isn't sure if she's ready to do it yet. I didn't act too eager to try and stay and I did my very best to let her think about it. When she said she wanted me to go to a couple of IC sessions first, I was very positive about it. (Inside, I was very excited about it......which makes being positive easier).

I remember reading something MWD said in DR. I'm paraphrasing but it went something like this. "Imagine a time when you had to be as patient as you've ever been in your life. Now, multiply that times 1 million. That's how patient you'll have to be during this process."

[25yearsmlc]

You wrote:


So I guess it was a positive step yesterday. It at least indicated to me that she does have a desire to try but just isn't sure if she's ready to do it yet.

Of course it's a positive. (!!) Secondly, I just finished saying that rushing back into the home will probably cost you the marriage, b/c You are NOT ready to show her consistent change. You said you got defensive yesterday but managed not to lose it. Hey, the first time you blow it, could be the last chance she ever gives you.

Get some TOOLS FIRST, before you move back in.
Otherwise, you move in at your peril.


I didn't act too eager to try and stay and I did my very best to let her think about it. When she said she wanted me to go to a couple of IC sessions first, I was very positive about it. (Inside, I was very excited about it......which makes being positive easier).

This was very good^^. You have a chance to turn this around. Stay positive.

I remember reading something MWD said in DR. I'm paraphrasing but it went something like this. "Imagine a time when you had to be as patient as you've ever been in your life. Now, multiply that times 1 million. That's how patient you'll have to be during this process."

Which means that your wife will need to extend HER patience, and you will have to begin learn some, right?

Don't revise your martial history or how you got here, or you'll end up back here with a lot fewer positives. No offense but patience is not something you have shown here at all, imo. Just saying, you may need to read your threads again, objectively, if you believe you are a patient man.

LEARN from this, and be grateful to get another chance if you do. Start by Not seeing yourself as a victim in this.

Make sense?

[25yearsmlc]

PS

Congrats on making it to day 24.

Oh, do Be mindful of how you see the "Discussions" vis a vis her. You may want to check in with your w sometimes, about how she views the discussion. As in, did she think you were fighting? OR "talking" or was it 'heated but respectful", etc. How did she feel you did, validating her opinions? Does she have any specific requests of you IN these talks, about how you can better meet her needs? Listening more, re-capping what she says so you KNOW you actually understand her point of view, No more mind reading, etc??

Just an idea

[trc2009]

Thank you 25! Definitely food for thought. I've read Jon's sitch about coming back from a separation too early and obviously I don't want that to happen. If it happens too early and both of us aren't ready, then it could be disasterous.

I will agree that I'm not a very patient person. I think I've definitely come a long way in that regard though. In January, I was freaking terrible at patience! Coming here slowed me down a little bit. Yesterday when she was close to asking me about coming home, I about jumped at the opportunity. But I asked her the question of whether she was ready. Which made her pause and in return, made me pause as well. I made it VERY clear that I didn't want her to do anything she didn't feel ready for.

The good news is that I went home for lunch and we actually were having a what seemed like a "normal" conversation. She was actually asking questions about what was going on at work with me (which she would do all the time throughout our marriage but stopped when we decided to separate).

I know the job hunt is wearing on her. She has some prospects but nothing solid. I validated her getting a job like CRAZY yesterday. I found out that if we remain married that she needs to be able to feel like she's contributing and not counting on me to completely support her. Again, I validated that like crazy. That is VERY important to her and I fully support her in whatever she decides to do.

[trc2009]

Also, these "discussions" are tough. Neither of us like to have them (who does?). They aren't light and fluffy for sure but she even indicated yesterday that they probably need to happen every few weeks while we're living apart just to gauge where we both stand with everything.

I honestly can't tell you 100% for sure how she "views" them (negative or positive). She did comment that if we were under the same roof again that they need to become less frequent or even stop. Which I can agree with because then things become "unnatural." Almost as if "checking in" on where we stand is almost like forcing it. We've been together long enough to know if things are getting better or worse without asking for reassurances constantly.

Obviously we still need to be able to communicate. Fortunately, the important stuff like the kids, money, etc. are pretty seemless conversations for us. Probably the best aspect of our marriage.

I suppose if we do get to a point where we're under the same roof and working toward peicing, then a MC could be beneficial for us. But we're a long way from that. We tried that on 2/7 and it was a disaster because she had no desire to be there. If I had a nickel for each time a bystander (family member/friend) has said "you guys should really try marriage counselling," I could go on a nice vacation right now. I really wish I had read DR before going to that because I would have known it probably wasn't a good idea at that time.