Strange days...

[2ndTimeHurt]

New thread time.

I'm not sure how to link threads from my phone so I'll just give a quick recap.

Together for 4.5 years
She left because of my anger(rage)
Broken up for 14 months
I spent that time in counseling, reading self help books etc.
She came back(said I was the love of her life, we were engaged again, blah blah)
Were together for another 7 months
She left again for various reasons, but I believe we didnt piece properly
I'm still working on myself
She started online dating about 2.5 months after break up
She's been with om for about 2 months
I think I'm ok, but maybe I'm fooling myself or maybe I'm faking it til I make it.


Anyway....

The past week has been pretty much the same. She's friendly, we have dinner, texts are funny at times etc.

She's been making a big effort to see our son lately. I think she is starting to miss him. She cried on the bus the other day saying she really misses him.

Tonight was another strange one. It was her night with him but I offered to pick her up from work so she could see him sooner. She had called me from her work to discuss tonight. She asked what I was doing tonight. I tried to beat around the bush(mystery), but ended up saying my plans were up in the air(truth). Somehow the conversation turned to our past r. Not by me though. I just wanted to drop it but she continues to talk. She talks about how I hurt her and I catch myself getting defensive so I try to stop the conversation. I'm sick so I sound really upset. Which I was but it seemed to amplify it. I just tell her I'll pick her up after work.

I picked her up and we went to the grocery store because she wanted to get some food so we could make dinner. All her idea. She said let's get food and play some rockband. I said sure. It seems our phone conversation is water under the bridge. Great! We make food, play with our son and some rockband. Had lots of fun. It's getting late so s3 just crashes here. We end up watching some old dexter from where we last watched(haven't watched tv with her for over 2 months). She almost passes out but wakes up. She even mentioned that she should just crash here, but I think I know why she didnt...

I asked her about manipulation. She says I do that a lot. I researched manipulation and I fit into the category most people do. I don't do it with the intent to get something from her. My manipulation is based on her belief system. If she feels guilty or played then basically that's me manipulating her. Fair enough. I'd like to figure out a way where my actions/words have the least chance of coming across as manipulation. Anyway, I believe the reason she didnt crash here was because she thinks I manipulated tonight. She said that tonight went exactly how I wanted. Funny, because tonight was all her idea. I was completely fine just hanging out by myself. I didnt mention dinner or rockband or anything. Whatever, it's in her head that I manipulated so I'll let her believe that. It will take many more times before she realizes my intentions are pure and not manipulative.

She ended up going home at 2:30am. I'm just going with the flow. She could've gone home at any time but she decided to stay that late.

I'm starting to wonder if I'm cake eating. I mean, there are about 3-4 women I'm currently chatting with(gone out with one girl twice). I'm clear to everyone that I'm just looking for friends to go out with. It's all in the name of socializing with new people, something that is a definite 180 for me. I usually stick with my core group of friends.

My ex has really been acting strange lately, even by her standards. She's a very very honest person, but somehow I can't see her telling mr. Awesome about all the times she's hung out with me. I'm just going to keep doing this one day at a time and just observe all the strangeness.

[Cadet]

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...126#Post2424126

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...959#Post2401959

[2ndTimeHurt]

Thanks for the links cadet.

Turns out my ex has been upset with me since the last time she was here(that sat. night when she stayed til 2:30). I noticed her texts were one word answers and she seemed distant. I actually didnt really think much of it-is that detaching?!? On that sat. I made a sarcastic crack(I was doing so good eliminating my sarcasm) about the time she threw a plate past my head. Turns out that really hurt her but she hid that from me that night. She says she doesn't want to argue anymore. Fair enough. She even told me she was crying at the gym the next day because she was so upset by it. I tried validating by keeping quiet and apologized.

Anyway, today she called me at work to discuss today's plans. It was her night with s3. I was busy and texted her I'd call her back. I called when I got home. She seemed really happy and talkative. She was at work and let 2 or 3 phone calls go to the answering machine. She must've talked for a good 30-45 minutes. She mentioned coming over after work and hanging out here with s3. I told her I was cool if he spent the night here again. I had to go to the grocery store after I picked up s3 from daycare and she offered to come and help out. So I picked her up from work and we got some groceries then headed back to my place. We made dinner and that's when she told me why her texts have been so short. I guess when she's mad she only replies with one word answers. Weird. Anyway, she then started talking about our relationship and she wanted me to know that she tried. I've heard that before. I just listened even though I wanted to say that she didnt try hard enough. So we ate dinner and she showed me stuff on her phone(YouTube video), and she talked a lot again. Random stuff, family, friends, work, her latest art projects etc.

She ended up having a shower here again while I played with s3. She wanted to play rockband after she got out of the shower so we did that. She seemed happy which was nice. She also talked about how she doesn't want to do anything this weekend so she would like to have s3 Saturday and Sunday. I agree as usual. I'm sure she will do some flip flopping by the time the weekend rolls around though.

Anyway, I've been keeping busy with my usual stuff.

[2ndTimeHurt]

Journaling.

I picked my ex up at the gym at 1:30 to go and do our taxes but the wait was too long so we just went to go get her some art supplies. Then we came back to my place around 5 and s3 needed a nap. I made us some dinner and we watched dexter again. She had a shower then took a nap on the couch. This is the first time she's napped here in a very long time. She had another weird hot/cold attack. Its strange because she gets really hot and sweaty but feels cool to the touch. I comforted her as best i could and got her some water and a snack. Anyway, she seemed to feel better after a bit. It's her night with him so she asked if she should go home to give me some alone time. I said sure. I just dropped them off now.

The conversation throughout the day was normal stuff. Although at one point we almost had a small tiff. She made a point that she doesn't want to argue anymore and wants to find a clean way to communicate. I got the impression that she wants to forget the way we used to communicate and try and talk things out rationally. I was actually impressed she was saying this. She has a long way to go in validating and empathizing but I guess it's a start.

Oh ya, last night she had another breakdown and was crying. She was texting me and asked if I was upset with her. I have no clue why she said that. My responses were pretty normal. I think not seeing our son is really affecting her plus she is having some money issues right now. I'm helping her out as much as I can but money is tight for me right now given my situation.

[lovethehub]

She talks about how I hurt her and I catch myself getting defensive so I try to stop the conversation. I'm sick so I sound really upset. Which I was but it seemed to amplify it. I just tell her I'll pick her up after work.

She left because of your anger and rage which leads me to believe that she wasn't able to talk to you about she felt. Is that true? Where you receptive to her feelings? If you weren't, you really need to listen now. Listen with the ear that wants to make your M work and do not show her you are upset. Honestly listen to how you made her feel, understand it, and tell her "I am very sorry I made you feel that way. I wish I hadn't and all I can do now is my best to be sure it never happens again".

I don't do it with the intent to get something from her. My manipulation is based on her belief system. If she feels guilty or played then basically that's me manipulating her.

I'm not sure what you mean. Did you manipulate her? If you don't think you did but she does, you did. The real question is, is she crazy and twists things around or do you need to examine your part and see your manipulation. People who have anger issues often tend to be manipulators.

I'm starting to wonder if I'm cake eating. I mean, there are about 3-4 women I'm currently chatting with(gone out with one girl twice). I'm clear to everyone that I'm just looking for friends to go out with. It's all in the name of socializing with new people, something that is a definite 180 for me. I usually stick with my core group of friends.

If you really want to work on your M you have no business chatting with 3-4 women. Trust me, as a women, I can almost guarantee it "isn't clear you are just looking for friends to go out with". Where are you chatting with these women? What type of site? If you are looking for new friends, outside of your core group, join a gym, go walk your dog in a dog park, etc. Online chatting, if you don't know each other, typically means you are looking for something more than just friends and I am pretty sure that you know that.

I tried validating by keeping quiet and apologized.

While keeping quiet is better than telling her she is wrong, it is by no means validating. Apologizing is great but unless you can share with that you understand how you made her feel, it doesn't make a difference. I don't mean saying "I know how you feel", either. I mean saying "I am sorry, I understand that by doing xxx I made you feel xxx. I didn't mean to and I will do my best not to do it again".

I guess when she's mad she only replies with one word answers. Weird.

It isn't weird, it is her way of trying to get you to understand you have hurt her without saying it.

she then started talking about our relationship and she wanted me to know that she tried. I've heard that before. I just listened even though I wanted to say that she didnt try hard enough.

That is your opinion and try to remember that you both have a different experience of the same situation. You admit you had anger issues and that is why she left. There is a great chance that she tried as best she could, for as many years as she could, until the pain, loneliness, anger, whatever got the best of her and she had to go to save herself. How many years did she try for before leaving?

Oh ya, last night she had another breakdown and was crying. She was texting me and asked if I was upset with her. I have no clue why she said that.

If she is asking you this it is because she is picking up on something from you - you may not even be aware of something you are doing. Watch what you are doing because you always want to be happy and friendly around her, show her the best you. There isn't a single person who can predict the outcome of this but the things you share here seem to show she isn't done and she is keeping a foot in and assessing how things are.

[2chiquitos]

Hi,
I'm just peeking in here since I haven't been on here for a loooong time.

First, I'm sorry you find yourself here but at the same time grateful that you have an outlet and support from people who are there or have been there.

You've gotten some great advice. So here's mine,

Journal only about yourself and your growth. Stay away from writing about WAS. When you give as much detail as you have about WAS then you're missing the point of this journey. -to learn about yourself. -to improve your relationship with yourself and those around you (WAS is not the only person around you), e.g. son, parents, siblings, friends.

Take care of 2ndTimeHurt (however not by socializing with the opposite sex!)

[2ndTimeHurt]

Hey lovethehub

Thanks for your input. There's lots there I will mull over.

While I agree with so much that you've said, if this was 2 years ago id follow that advice to the t. In fact I actually did. I just feel that our sitch is in a completely different phase.

"She left because of your anger and rage which leads me to believe that she wasn't able to talk to you about she felt. Is that true? Where you receptive to her feelings? If you weren't, you really need to listen now. Listen with the ear that wants to make your M work and do not show her you are upset. Honestly listen to how you made her feel, understand it, and tell her "I am very sorry I made you feel that way. I wish I hadn't and all I can do now is my best to be sure it never happens again"."

During our first r, I didnt really listen to how she actually felt. I've spent years working on that(counseling, books, podcasts, and lots of practice). I've actually become a validating machine, but there is a time and place to just stfu.

"I'm not sure what you mean. Did you manipulate her? If you don't think you did but she does, you did. The real question is, is she crazy and twists things around or do you need to examine your part and see your manipulation. People who have anger issues often tend to be manipulators. "

I can clarify this. My intentions were never to make her feel a certain way or to get something from her. It's like you said, she felt I manipluted so therefore I did. But I know that's not true. Example. The other night it was her idea to come over for dinner, play rockband and hang out til 2:30am. I didnt ask her to do any of that, yet she felt I got exactly what I wanted so she felt manipulated. There were times in our old r where I would explain to her I felt disrespected by her hanging out one on one with a guy she had casual sex with. They texted daily and hung out at least once a week. I showed displeasure so she felt guilty and manipulated. How can I argue with that? I'm not going to call her crazy but we both know she has deep rooted issues. She has a history of depression and anxiety and she recently said she wanted to commit suicide. I've felt she has a mild case of bpd, but I've dropped that and now I accept that whatever changes I make may reflect on her. I've seen her change in the last several months.


"If you really want to work on your M you have no business chatting with 3-4 women. Trust me, as a women, I can almost guarantee it "isn't clear you are just looking for friends to go out with". Where are you chatting with these women? What type of site? If you are looking for new friends, outside of your core group, join a gym, go walk your dog in a dog park, etc. Online chatting, if you don't know each other, typically means you are looking for something more than just friends and I am pretty sure that you know that. "

She started dating 2 and a half months after she left for the 2nd time. She's told me to date and I've said I'm not ready. These women know what I'm looking for. They are clear as well. I've gone out twice with one girl and it was with my friend and hers as well. It was totally just casual.

"While keeping quiet is better than telling her she is wrong, it is by no means validating. Apologizing is great but unless you can share with that you understand how you made her feel, it doesn't make a difference. I don't mean saying "I know how you feel", either. I mean saying "I am sorry, I understand that by doing xxx I made you feel xxx. I didn't mean to and I will do my best not to do it again"."

I've posted about the 6 levels of validating. I validated to the highest level I could. I mean, she was the one who threw a plate past my head. I apologized for bringing it up and told her Ive pretty much eliminated any sarcastic comments from our communication. That was a slip up and I apologized. We're both sarcastic. I used to say something sarcastic several times a day. I can honestly say, besides that one slip up I haven't said anything sarcastic in several months.

"That is your opinion and try to remember that you both have a different experience of the same situation. You admit you had anger issues and that is why she left. There is a great chance that she tried as best she could, for as many years as she could, until the pain, loneliness, anger, whatever got the best of her and she had to go to save herself. How many years did she try for before leaving?"

I can fully admit that I was the cause during our first r. I changed and she noticed and came back saying I was the love of her life. My anger was gone but her resentment wasn't. Our roles reversed. She was the angrier one. She was the name caller. We were in couples counseling but I knew if she couldn't fully and truly forgive me then it wasn't going to work. I feel she didnt work at all in trying to forgive. During our reconciliation I was the one reading books(she doesn't like to read), I was the one keeping up with our exercises our counselor gave us(she didnt), she told me she didnt want to talk about the relationship but just live it. I would've loved that but we did need work. Forgiveness for starters. I spent a full year feeling absolute shame and guilt after she left the first time. My IC told me I needed to forgive her and myself which I did. I still have flashes of shame, but I tell myself that I worked so hard to redeem myself. My IC is actually really proud if the person I've become.

We were together for 4.5 years before she left the first time. She claims she tried that whole time. I don't argue that. What I don't agree with is how she tried. Anyone can try to build a house with just a hammer. You need more tools and neither of us had the proper tools the first time. The second time around though I had a whole toolbox full of tools while my ex still had her hammer. I'm still acquiring tools while she is content with her hammer. My IC pointed this out to me with a "change wheel". She said I'm on the far end of the wheel while my ex is still at the beginning.

"If she is asking you this it is because she is picking up on something from you - you may not even be aware of something you are doing. Watch what you are doing because you always want to be happy and friendly around her, show her the best you. There isn't a single person who can predict the outcome of this but the things you share here seem to show she isn't done and she is keeping a foot in and assessing how things are."

If I had to guess the reason she asked if I was upset it was probably because my text response wasnt as long winded as normal. I was actually busy. She projects her feelings. If I respond with a few words that does not mean I'm upset, it could mean I'm busy. But since she responds with one word answers when she's upset she thinks I do the same. Believe me, I've shown her the best me. I'm there for her when she needs me. I laugh with her. I care for her. I listen and validate her. Maybe too much as some posters have said. I do try to find a balance though. I do let her initiate things a lot. And that's the strange thing, she initiates a lot of things even though she is dating someone. From an outsider's perspective, the things she's done with me(let me dye her hair, text me at 2am to show me her artwork, many dinners, rockband, foot massage, watching shows, staying over late, hanging out for 10 hours, asking me out to late night snacks, having showers here and taking a nap, confiding in me with her daily problems, buying me treats, etc) just don't make sense.

I've stopped trying to make sense or read into anything. I really am trying to take things one day at a time and whenever I'm with her to make sure we're both happy and having fun.

[2ndTimeHurt]

Hey 2chuiquitos

"Journal only about yourself and your growth. Stay away from writing about WAS. When you give as much detail as you have about WAS then you're missing the point of this journey. -to learn about yourself. -to improve your relationship with yourself and those around you (WAS is not the only person around you), e.g. son, parents, siblings, friends."

I've thought about that as well. Journaling only about myself. I figured since my thread isn't exactly the hot topic of conversation I thought it was a safe place for me to just write out this part of my journey. It's been a long one. 2years!!! I have been thinking about posting more about just myself though.

[2ndTimeHurt]

Boy, did I really really f up this morning.

How the hell do you express a boundary without it getting blow up into a huge argument about the past? I mean, everything got thrown into this argument. Wtf!!

It's the ex's night with him tonight but she asked if I could take him tonight. Usually I just stfu and agree. This time I actually listened to her because yesterday she wanted me to speak up about my feelings. So I did just that. I ASKED why she wanted s3 to come over. I was not accusing but she took it that way.

It went into a whole tirade about how she "knows" I'm pissed off that she's dating someone. I have not shown anger or anything negative regarding this guy. I don't talk about him to her.

The argument got really nasty. Her hanging up on me, me going over to her place to explain I was not accusing.

Ugh.

I think it's either time to go dim or just forget the past 6 years even happened. Man, the sh*t she was saying was so painful to hear.

[unbidden]

Why did you go over to her place to explain you weren't accusing her? That's total pursuing. I know it's hard but you need to do LRT and move your life forward irrespective of what she does. Do it for you and your S.