Hello. I sure hope someone can give me some insight into the problem my H and I are having.
One of my very best friends is a gay male. We've been great friends since our early teens. Right after we graduated from high school, my friend revealed to me that he was gay. I remember asking him why he waited so long to tell me and that it wouldn’t have changed how I felt about him as one of my dearest friends. We ended up sharing that we both had had crushes on each other in the past but were too afraid to change our friendship. I loved him very much, but could never imagine having sex with him and he could not imagine being completely faithful and monogamous, especially with a girl. It was at this time that we made a pact. If we were both still single by our 30th birthdays, we would get married so we could have the children that we both really wanted.
I met my H in 1994 and we got married 4 years later. At first, my H seemed to accept our friendship, but insisted that we meet outside of our home. He had no desire to meet him or interact. So we'd meet for coffee or meals once in a while. We eventually lost touch because of his travels and my marriage and having children. My H has told me that at this point, he was relieved that my friend was "gone" and hoped we'd never reconnect.
Well, I don't have very many friends and realized that I missed this friend terribly. I found him and my H became jealous and insecure. Some of his reactions and comments make me feel like he doesn't trust me, as if I might be tempted to have a sexual encounter or affair with my friend. We live in seperate provinces so it's not as if we're constantly doing coffee or going out. We IM (chat online) here and there, usually for about an hour every week or two.
I just found out in December that my friend is now HIV+. I wanted to make it absolutely clear to my friend that him being HIV+ didn't change our friendship or how I felt about him whatsoever. Reminiscent of our pact, I told him that he could think of my kids as his. Well! H found out about this and understandably was upset that I could say such a thing. I tried to explain it in the context it was meant, but he's scarred by those words and I made a diffult situation even worse.
My friend is possibly moving to my area in a few months, and I'm really not sure how this will affect my H. He seems to get overwhelmed easily when I have been in contact with him or any gay person for that matter. He tells me that he accepts my friendships because he loves me, but that doesn't mean he has to accept *them* or their lifestyles. Now that he is aware of my friend's HIV *and* our pact, I'm sure any contact with him will throw H over the edge - especially if our young children are present for any visits. Don't get me wrong, he's not uneducated and ignorant, I think it's homophobia or else I'm somehow not making my faithfulness and love for him clear enough. What can or should I do? I'm not prepared to simply drop my friend(s) for my H's comfort level.
Wow, Pam...that is a hard one, especially given my current sitch. My opinion is that your primary responsibility is of course to your husband, and that if contact between you and your friend jeopardizes your marriage, then you ought not to have contact. But you might be able to open a dialogue with your husband in a non-threatening way by asking him some questions:
What is it about my friend that makes you uncomfortable? Why do you fear my being unfaithful to you? Help me understand why my friendship with my gay friend is upsetting to you.
Questions like this are not in any way a challenge to his attitude, rather they accept his feelings and require him to validate them on his own. You aren't starting a fight by challenging him and drawing battle lines; rather you are opening a dialogue and asking him to respond to you with his perceptions and understandings rather than filtering his responses through your own prejudices.
I think it is a legitimate concern for many men that their wives' male friends have minimal contact with ther wives outside their presence because those friendships often do blossom into other things, especially when your marriage hits hard times. In our case, as you have read, my W began a torrid affair which still continues to this day because this male "friend" was going through a painful divorce, and he was needy, and my W was starting to realize how unhappy she was with me and so began to commiserate with him, and eventually the door was thrown open to a full-blown affair. I think that is at the root of a lot of male insecurity...that we know there are no guarantees and so we don't want our wives even taking the risk in the first place. That doesn't mean it is a rational fear - few fears are - but it is a legitimate one and so I'd tread lightly at least until you and your husband can come to an understanding.
I support you having the friendship, but I doubt you would be foolish enough to engage in a sexual relationship with a person who is HIV+, and you need to reassure your husband that is the case. Either way, your husband's convictions on gay people may never change and then it is a case of who means more to you - your husband or your friend. In my case right now my W is more into her friendships and her new independence - that was the cost of not relating better with each other in the past. I hope that your sitch is more easily handled than mine was!
Thanks Dan! I agree to a certain extent, but at the same time I don't think I could look myself in the mirror if I ended a friendship for these reasons. Of course my husband means more to me. I married him and had children with him. I share my every day life with him. I chose him to grow old with; not my friend. Our pact was in place, yet when I met my husband, I CHOSE him! The only jeopardizing going on is in his head, isn't it? How can he be so concerned about me running off with an HIV+ gay friend? Why would I throw away *everything* I have now for *something* that would only last a few years, if that? It's comparing apples to oranges.
Quote: What is it about my friend that makes you uncomfortable?
Why do you fear my being unfaithful to you?
Help me understand why my friendship with my gay friend is upsetting to you.
I have asked him those questions practically word for word actually. He's afraid that I'll run away with him but can't answer anything else.
Quote: I doubt you would be foolish enough to engage in a sexual relationship with a person who is HIV+, and you need to reassure your husband that is the case.
I have reassured him that I have NEVER WANTED to engage in a sexual relationship with my friend! I've assured him that my friend might as well be my brother or best girlfriend. I even admitted to him that I'd feel a twinge of panic if my friend sneezed on me! I've never been sexually attracted to my friend. What I feel for him is a platonic, brother-sister love. I've explained all of this to him. The thought of being forced or even offering to give him up, makes me feel sick to my stomache. I just can't wrap my head around cutting off a friendship simply because my H doesn't like him or how close we are.
Now, he has used the arguement that I'd feel totally different if he had a lesbian *best* friend. I have to admit, it would bother me. My curiosity could get the best of me. However, reality is - when we met, he had the opportunity to accept the fact that I have gay friendships or not. I never concealed my friendships. If he had a lesbian best friend when we met, I would have taken that into consideration and weighed out if I could handle it or not. I would have asked to meet her so I could see them interact together, how she treated me and see how attractive she was. Catch my drift?
I don't think it's fair to demand that I drop a friend just because he happens to have a penis.
Well we discussed this (again) lastnight and he thinks I've painted an inaccurate picture of the situation. He's not homophobic and has never said that I couldn't invite my friend to our home. I must have assumed his not wanting to meet Bret and a statement about how uncomfortable he would become if my friend looked at him the wrong way or hit on him, that this meant he was homophobic.
What it boils down to is this. He does not like how close the friendship is; he's uncomfortable with how well we can read each other's feelings. He also does not like how flirtateous our conversations are. H claims that there is an awful lot of sexual connotations in my friend's dialogue and that he's blatantly flirting with me. I don't seem to notice this, I suppose because I take everything he says in the context of a gay guy, not a straight man. I'm willing to ask Bret if he can refrain from any sexual innuendos, but I don't think that is the problem.
The icing on the cake is of course the fact that "you gave what is mine to him", a quote from H referring to my statement about my friend being able to think of our kids as his. The fact that his own wife *could* say such a thing has scarred him and he has to keep reminding himself that I didn't mean it the way he took it. I've tried to explain the context of how I meant it, and I believe how my friend received it as well. Right after I said that, he referred to himself as Uncle Bret.
Lastnight I explained the context again as if he had said *that* to a butch lesbian (or even an extreme feminist maybe!), best friend who was going to die, and had no way of bearing her own children. I tried to get it through to him that it was NOT meant to hurt him in ANY way. I tend to be sappy and cry during sad movies, heck, if a commercial strikes me just the right way my eyes get wet! I meant what I told my friend in a loving, heartfelt way... not as if I wished deep down that I had married him and had kids with him or that he would have made a better father.
H called my pact "silly". I reminded him that when it was made, I had had nothing but terrible relationships with men. He asked whether I would have gone through with it had we not met or married. I told him that there was a good chance that I might have due to my strong desire to be a mother. I honestly had no confidence in my ability to choose men, it was very important to me that I be married to the father of my children (first), and I knew I didn't want to be an older mother. Thus the 30 year "deadline". Both my friend and I agreed that our brother-sisterly love would have been enough to be parents. However, all of this became null and void when I did meet my H, about a year later.
My friendships are very important to me. My sex therapy homework is to explore the nature of my friendships and what I value from them. I suppose that is why I've posted this for anyone to comment on because I seem to place too much importance on my friendships. I'm looking for reactions to what I said to my friend and my H's reaction. My therapist and I can not be the only people who can understand the context of what I said. This deeply hurt my spouse and I have no idea how to make it better. It makes me feel terribly misunderstood and guilty for wanting to continue my friendship. I'm worried that any time H sees my friend, especially if our children are present, that he'll feel self conscious or resentful. I don't want to put him through that.
Aren't there *any* women here who have a gay guy as one of their best or dear friends?
Well, I sympathize with you very much - it is a tough spot. From my viewpoint, it's difficult for me to disagree with your husband completely since my wife is engaged in an affair with a "friend" who she now loves very deeply and all of my fears about her were realized when she chose not to quit seeing him even before the affair started. In our case, I began to see signs that she was getting too close to him, then I started to resist that relationship when he blatantly started inviting her to concerts and "out" without inviting me. So, I can see where your husband might feel very insecure because in my case my suspicions were dead-on and my very real fears were realized.
In my wife's case, she has a history of sexual molestation from childhood (pretty severe one too, involving her sister's fiance and later, husband). Her behavior has always been tinged with sexual overtones, it seemed to me, and there were times when I got upset with her for being too flirtatious or too affectionate with male friends, especially in front of our kids. Being in the "swinging" lifestyle didn't help, obviously, as those aspects of her personality were celebrated and enhanced, and she eventually began to embrace that part of herself as "the real her" rather than seeing it as potentially a danger to our kids and our marriage.
Now, it's true that our case is a fairly unique one, pretty extreme...but didn't you say you were engaged in sex therapy? Were you also molested as a child, or in some other way sexually compromised in your life? Our marriage counselor (who we saw 6 times when the marriage was initially breaking down) told us the incidence of infidelity and divorce among molested women is very high - that a "switch is turned" in their brains, in a way, that makes sex a very different thing for them...intimacy through sex is removed and sex becomes a game, or a fun outlet for lust, but does not hold the intimate connective quality more common among women who did not experience sexual molestation. By and large, molestation victims become promiscuous and very often seek validation from many men, etc. This has always been one of my chief fears about my wife, and I have often acted to "head her off" in the past because I perceived this in her and it scared me, and also because I was afraid the kids would be exposed to dangers that would cause them the same harm she was caused. So, I acted perhaps overbearingly and out of fear to reduce the influences of anything even slightly suggestive to our kids, especially if it was behavior from her that suggested a sexual overtone of ANY kind, even toilet humor and body-function stuff, like farts. I was pretty serious about it and to hear her tell it, hard to live with.
The bottom line is I think maybe if you are similar to my wife, your husband may have fears that cannot be fully assuaged if you tend towards these sorts of behaviors, especially given the comment you made about the kids. I totally understand where you are coming from, and I know you meant no harm...but it is hard for a man to separate those things. Even my wife knows I "meant no harm" by my hardline approach to things but nevertheless, "the best of intentions" STILL led to her choosing to get out and have an affair. In your case, at least you are still having a dialogue and hopefully no permanent harm has been done. I think you have every right to maintain your friendships, but I also believe that in a marriage, anything you do should have vigorous agreement from your spouse before you do it. I'm not saying give up your friend; far from it. But you may want to follow through on asking him to tone down sexual innuendos and indicate that your marriage is important to you and that those things cause your husband discomfort. I think if Bret is REALLY your friend he will understand and will really make that change. Only the profoundly selfish among us (unfortunately my wife is currently one of those people, as is her "friend") choose to place their wants and desires above their commitments, in my opinion. There is room for a certain amount of selfishness, but if you approach your marriage that way all the time, you may as well not be married. The integrity of commitment is directly proportional to the integrity of the people making the commitment; if your commitment is jeopardized by choices that challenge the commitment then you have to evaluate your choices.
I don't think your pact with your friend was silly, but consider when in your life you made it, and under what circumstances. Did you really have the best frame of mind to be making such a pact? And if your husband takes those sorts of things seriously, he may see it as something dangerous because to him that was a sort of commitment. By calling it silly he may be trying to minimize it's importance to reassure himself that you wouldn't stick to such a commitment - but he can't be sure since you are tenacious in your will to hang on to the friendship. In my case the affair relationship is in my opinion the sole reason that makes reconciliation with my wife impossible; so, I can never trust her and no real trust or commitment can grow between us as long as she hangs on to that relationship. In our case, her involvement with him must cease on every level in order for us to be happily married as far as I am concerned. Perhaps in your case it won't be necessary to take it that far, but at the very least you might consider at least toning down the level of involvement for a while and take the kinds of actions that show your husband you are truly sensitive to his concerns.
Wow! Thank you for the reply - you put so much into your posts! I really appreciate that. Actually I did have a sexually abusive childhood, and that is why I am seeing a sex therapist as opposed to a counsellor. When I initially contacted her, I was convinced that I was a sexless person and could live without it ever again. I chose her because I KNEW this was not normal for a 31 year old! I also KNEW that I had enjoyed sex in the past, especially with my H.
Here is my thread for a better understanding. Personally, I don't see much similarity between your W and I. Sex, for me, has always been a private, special act between lovers. I don't even like porn!
In summary, I was molested at age 7 by a friend of my father's (he was not present or aware). I witnessed my (seperated) mother in various sex acts with men she was dating and especially her second husband, my stepfather. For some reason, they felt it was appropriate to carry on sexually in front of a 9 year old child. At 16, I was dateraped AND gangbanged by the date's friends. But, that is all behind me - really.
Quote: ...you might consider at least toning down the level of involvement for a while and take the kinds of actions that show your husband you are truly sensitive to his concerns.
Yes I agree with you but I could see it if we were going out excessively, but our contact is extremely minimal currently... and is about to increase. He keeps getting upset that I don't seem to care about his feelings or understand him. It's as if we're both trying like hell to get the other to see our own point of view.
Quote: a "switch is turned" in their brains, in a way, that makes sex a very different thing for them... 100% agreed!
intimacy through sex is removed and sex becomes a game, or a fun outlet for lust, but does not hold the intimate connective quality more common among women who did not experience sexual molestation. Nope! The fact is that intimacy through sex *might* be removed and *might not* hold the intimate connective quality... How an individual deals with abuse is very personal. To me, sex is extremely, possibly even hypersensitively, intimate. I can't and refuse to "just do it" - I need to feel connected first, otherwise sex is like eating after I'm already full or trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
By and large, molestation victims become promiscuous and very often seek validation from many men, etc. *Some* molestation victims *may* become promiscuous, but not in my case.
Thanks for the great response! I am glad that you've weighed in on your particulars - it's good to know that you have dealt with your abuse in a healthy way and are continuing that work.
The comments I made were taken from points our MC made when we were still seeing him, prior to our separation in November/December 2003. I had heard those things before but it came home again after he talked with us. In my wife's case she also is able to be completely intimate during sex, profoundly so even...but much of the time she just wants it to be fun and playful and can't stand it when I pour my heart and soul into lovemaking. She has said for a long time that it is too taxing for her when it's always "serious". So I learned to make it a lot more playful/lustful - that is a large part of how we did it in the lifestyle, as I'm sure you can imagine. The problem was of course that she allowed her emotions to get caught up with almost all the male play friends until finally one of them really shined out when our marriage broke down and she fell in love with him. This is, I think the most profound risk that people in the lifestyle take. Also, she has recently told me that her continued sexual relationship with him is "fun" and having no commitment to him makes it that much more fun. This admission seems to support my theory about her motivation - that for her, at least, sex cannot be about intimacy most of the time, that it has to be fun and lustful and playful but cannot be connected up with TRUE intimacy, because she is not fully able to be vulnerable. I do not know what level of intimacy she has reached with the OP but she has described their encounters as "fun" not as soul-mate material. Hard to say if she is lying at present, since she has lied to maintain that relationship many times, so I try to take everything I am seeing with a grain of salt. As Michele said, believe none of what you hear and only 50% of what you see, because the WAW is speaking from fear and lots of other negative motivators.
Anyway...hope your weekend is going well!
Anyway...I appreciate your points very much and I am glad that you look at sex the way you do. I wish more of us did - there would be a lot less abuse in the world.
Just a thought, but I think you really should try to honor your husband's feelings toward your friend. I understand the closeness you feel for him, and I understand that it is platonic. I am willing to bet that deep inside your H understands that you would never be intimate with your friend.
What is eating at your H, I am willing to bet, is the intimate, emotional closeness you share with this person. THAT is what is causing his feelings of jealousy. The time you give to that person, and the complete devotion of your attention, and the obvious care you show for this person I believe is what is causing the problem.
No, it is not a rational feeling. But he IS entitled to his feelings, and I am sure that if the roles were reversed, you too, would feel a sense of 'being left out in the cold.'
My H is somtimes jealous of my best friend, and my best friend is a female. It is hard for him, sometimes, to see me so 'in tune' with another person, especially when he feels that he and I are not that 'in tune.'
Do you have a right to your friendships? Of course you do. But as one of your most trusted friends, Bret must also honor your relationship with your H, and it sounds to me that there may be a competition for your 'time' going on. If you allow this to continue, it is going to rip you right in half. You OWE your husband your loyalty. By marrying him, you agreed to put him first above all others. That you even resist this with your H is what is making him feel doubt.
What I would do is ask your H how you might construct your time with Bret that would make your H feel more comfortable. If the sexual innuendo is bothering your H, you and Bret must honor that and knock it off. If Bret cannot honor that, you need to be very clear with him that you cannot continue your relationship. The person here who needs boundaries, it seems to me, is not your H, but your friend.
I truly believe what your H is jealous of, again, is the emotional closeness, the emotional intimacy you share with your friend. And even if he is gay, it still is different having this type of relationship with a man rather than a woman. And the more 'emotionally close' you become to your friend, the further you and your H are going to drift apart. This I believe would happen even if this person WERE your brother.... at some point you must draw a line and reserve a certain level of emotional closeness only with your spouse.
Even though you would never sleep with this person, it could very well turn into an 'emotional affair' and that can be as damaging as a physical affair because it DOES draw your attention, your love, your devotion away from your family.
Yes, you should always have room in your life for your friends. But if at any time those friends begin to come before family, I think you must take a look at your own motives and what it is YOU are getting out of the relationship that would allow you to put them first, family second.
Quote: She has described their encounters as "fun" not as soul-mate material. Hard to say if she is lying at present, since she has lied to maintain that relationship many times, so I try to take everything I am seeing with a grain of salt.
Danzona
Good plan! I'm really sorry she's putting you through this.
Corri:
Quote: The time you give to that person, and the complete devotion of your attention, and the obvious care you show for this person I believe is what is causing the problem. It sounds to me that there may be a competition for your 'time' going on. You OWE your husband your loyalty. By marrying him, you agreed to put him first above all others. That you even resist this with your H is what is making him feel doubt.
Wow! You make it sound as if I can't get through a day without hearing my friend's voice! I talk to him once every couple of weeks! Even once he moves here, if he does, we'll probably have coffee once a week, if that. Of course I'm loyal to H and he comes first.
Quote: No, it is not a rational feeling. But he IS entitled to his feelings, and I am sure that if the roles were reversed, you too, would feel a sense of 'being left out in the cold.'
I'm not sure. I'd possibly feel that way if I was never invited to come along or H refused to share the friendship with me. Without having something to hide - there shouldn't be any hard feelings, in my opinion.
Quote: The more 'emotionally close' you become to your friend, the further you and your H are going to drift apart. At some point you must draw a line and reserve a certain level of emotional closeness only with your spouse.
I think this is the problem. Bret and I were close long before I met my H. As much as I love my H, I also love my best friend and I think it's inevitable that we may even grow closer as his "time" draws nearer.
Thanks for your perspectives. I think H and I are just going to have to take this one day at a time and try to keep our lines of communication as clear and open as possible.
I meant what I told my friend in a loving, heartfelt way... not as if I wished deep down that I had married him and had kids with him or that he would have made a better father.
I reminded him that when it was made, I had had nothing but terrible relationships with men. He asked whether I would have gone through with it had we not met or married. I told him that there was a good chance that I might have due to my strong desire to be a mother. I honestly had no confidence in my ability to choose men, it was very important to me that I be married to the father of my children (first), and I knew I didn't want to be an older mother. Thus the 30 year "deadline". Both my friend and I agreed that our brother-sisterly love would have been enough to be parents. However, all of this became null and void when I did meet my H, about a year later. 
Nope! The fact is that intimacy through sex *might* be removed and *might not* hold the intimate connective quality... How an individual deals with abuse is very personal. To me, sex is extremely, possibly even hypersensitively, intimate. I can't and refuse to "just do it" - I need to feel connected first, otherwise sex is like eating after I'm already full or trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. 
