melissa

[Wonka]

Bug,

I believe Melissa should address his lack of empathy with him but how that's approached is key to getting what she seeks, which I think is for him to hear her. It's a matter of doing it from a place of empathy and compassion or a place of blame and shame.

How can this be accomplished with the proper finesse? Other than saying "H, you suck big time at this! You dolt..on and on" Why continue trying to hit at the very same brick wall hoping for some change? It seems to me from reading M's posts in her threads, H isn't the cuddly fuzzball she'd like for him to be. It appears that H minimizes M's feelings and by extension, his kids too. Then what is M left with? I believe M could very well do it from a place of compassion BUT how will H react in response to her ah so gentle suggestions? That is the conundrum right there. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[melissag]

Wonka, yes. My H simply does not like to be "criticized." And he views almost anything that is not complimentary as criticism. Once (well, more than once) he made a list of things I said/did to prove to me what a critical bitch I was. And while some of them I agree were valid, many of them were things like, "that water bottle needs to go on the top rack of the dishwasher so it doesn't melt," or, "that hurt when you stepped on my toe." I wish I had kept one of the lists so I could post it. (Weird, how I didn't save those for posterity, huh?)

So over the course of the R, if I was to talk to him about something that bothered me, the response would almost always be to blame me or someone else, or defend. If my point was valid, he would focus on the fact that I delivered it in the wrong way. If I delivered it in the right way, my point was invalid or it was my fault.

To answer your question, bug, when I brought up the thing at Disneyland, I waited until the kids were asleep and we were out on the balcony, and I said, "H, please don't tell D9 (then D5) to kick people in the head." The convo then continued with him defending himself and saying he thinks it's funny and he wants his kids to be obnoxious because he likes it that he is obnoxious; and me trying to make him understand that a 5 year old doesn't understand the difference between being obnoxious as a joke and being obnoxious, and that regardless, it's not really appropriate for a 5 year old to do either. From his POV, I was criticizing his parenting and also insulting his personality. I won't say that I have always voiced my concerns to him in an appropriate or loving way . . . not at all. But it didn't seem to make much difference in the response. (I am not using that as en excuse not to raise concerns in a more empathetic way, it's just an observation.)

My H really can't stand it when I say anything about his parenting. That was a big point of contention for him. I was trying to help him to have a better R with the kids, but he saw it as me not "taking his side." For example, he would have a three hour long power struggle with S7 (it used to be D9, then she figured out how to avoid it), and then be angry with me for not "taking his side." He said it was S7's fault because S7 was being a pain in the ass.

Anyway, I am rambling, but the point is, there really is no way to bring this up with him without risking getting some more hateful spew sent my way. I am willing to do that if it will help my kids, but I am not sure it will.

I could say something relatively benign, like, D9 is really sad about her fish's death. And he might care, and he might think, oh, I should talk to her about that. But I am willing to bet, what he will do is, instead of listening and validating, he will try to talk her out of it. It's just a fish, who cares, etc. Not because he is a bad guy (I don't think that . . . and frankly, I think I have screwed myself over trying to always look for the good in him since BD), but because he just doesn't know how to deal with her emotions. It's the same thing he did to me for years. He just doesn't get it.

So, I'm just not sure what to do, other than to be there for my kids the best *I* can. Since BD, I have tried to let my H figure out his own R with them, and they with him. I'm just not sure at what point (if any, short of danger to the kids) I should interfere or voice my opinion/concern.

[25yearsmlc]

You are doing well Melissa, you really are.

Your situation is a lousy one, as are most around here. But your h has hurt your d, and I don't see any reason to believe he won't continue doing that.

Like Labug, I'm one of those who is "into therapy". I wish everyone would go for at least a tune up, (if not a major overhaul). I don't see how it can harm your d.

Oh sure, We all know some lousy marriage counseling can harm a marriage, or do it no good.

But could a child psychologist be a bad idea? Honestly, I don't see how. And does the injunction prevent you from seeking medical help for her?

Why would your h oppose it? I'd think it's very revealing if he does.

But we are all here, rooting for you Melissa. And we are rooting for your children too.

(Oh, and as for the "murderous" fish, can he get a reprieve, or at least a transfer?? If he gets another cell mate, let's make sure they're more compatible...)

Sorry if my post ruined your day, but I just felt sick when I read of his interaction. He frightens me, from the point of view of a small girl. Her dad is "the outside world". The father daughter relationship is under rated I think. So maybe your h will read some books about the importance of the Father-daughter relationships...maybe...

(((( ))))

[Underdog]

I know - she has a real conundrum here, doesn't she? It's an issue I'd take up with my XH, but as Wonka said, it would take a tightrope dance with real finesse to have a snowball's chance in hell at changing the outcome. Melissa's H doesn't make it easy.

But could a child psychologist be a bad idea? Honestly, I don't see how. And does the injunction prevent you from seeking medical help for her?

Why would your h oppose it? I'd think it's very revealing if he does.

I'll weigh in on the hopeful side. My XH thought our now D20 was handling our split very maturely at the age of 8. I remember him telling me, "she has my cell and work number, she can call anytime. It's like I'll always be there for her, and she gets that." But maybe it's a mom thing. Or maybe it's a WAS thing. He took everything at the time at face value. And since he saw what he wanted to see, in his mind, everything was great!

He initially opposed to me putting D20 in touch with her child psychologist. The same one we used (ironically for the same reasons) back when we got a diagnosis on D17 at the age of 3. I kinda decided to override his decision. I think I said, "if the doctor feels that she's hunky dory, then I won't force her to go". I think he felt that they'd go in for a tune up, the doctor would say what he wanted to hear, and then we could proceed with his game plan. And no surprise, it didn't work that way at all. With the doctor's help, we worked out the schedule so that the appointments were on his day with the girls - so she could come out and address any salient points with him at the end of their session. I know none of you here would be shocked if I said it was a real eye opener for him. Initially, he was angry she felt that way. But as the psychologist started to get through to him that it wasn't about HIS feelings, he slowly shifted to a more empathetic position.

But my XH is, by nature, an empathetic person. So it didn't surprise me that he moved off of his square. Particularly when they started addressing the abandonment issues. So when she was 13, our D was long finalized, and the issues started to crop up again, he didn't bat an eye when I suggested we return to the doctor for some help.

As 25 stated a few threads ago, make sure you include the cost for therapy in with your budget to the lawyers. As these ladies have found out, no matter what the outcome is, the act of a family separating is going to have consequences. And 25, you hit a nail on the head with the Father-Daughter R. That's the first love R a daughter will ever have, and it teaches girls so much about the kind of men they might choose down the road. Or in other cases, women. 25, my heart broke a little about your update on your D16. This must be so hard for her. And while my heart goes out to your H for wanting things to be different, there are unfortunate scars from hurts that never heal. I hope that your D16 can find some peace and healing as she goes.

(Oh, and as for the "murderous" fish, can he get a reprieve, or at least a transfer?? If he gets another cell mate, let's make sure they're more compatible...)

Wha? Was he given the death penalty? Or sentenced to life in solitary confinement?

I feel bad for all our kids. Isn't it tough that they have to bear the consequences of struggles that were never theirs?

[Wonka]

To bring some levity to this discussion, when the fish story was first brought up, I immediately thought of Nemo and Darla. Melissa's H is Darla at the moment.

[MamaB]

I have no words. What really stands out to me is when your H told his D not to follow him around, that got me. I really do hope that you H just does not realize what he is doing when he treats his family the way he has.

[PatientMan]

Wonka, yes. My H simply does not like to be "criticized." And he views almost anything that is not complimentary as criticism.

That's his problem, not yours.

So over the course of the R, if I was to talk to him about something that bothered me, the response would almost always be to blame me or someone else, or defend. If my point was valid, he would focus on the fact that I delivered it in the wrong way. If I delivered it in the right way, my point was invalid or it was my fault.

His problem.

My H really can't stand it when I say anything about his parenting. That was a big point of contention for him.

His problem.

I was trying to help him to have a better R with the kids...

This part you can stop worrying about as it isn't your job anymore. Protecting and defending your kids is.

Anyway, I am rambling, but the point is, there really is no way to bring this up with him without risking getting some more hateful spew sent my way. I am willing to do that if it will help my kids, but I am not sure it will.

Can it do any harm?

If it has the possibility of helping and can't make things worse for your kids, I don't see the down side. Oh sure, he might make things more difficult for you, but that's just because he's a narcissistic sociopath. I doubt he takes it out on the kids and, in fact, given time to think about it alone at his "dad pad", he might actually realize he effed up, though he would likely never admit it.

If you honestly think he might make things worse for your kids after you talk to him, then yes, think long and hard before you bring it up.

I could say something relatively benign, like, D9 is really sad about her fish's death. And he might care, and he might think, oh, I should talk to her about that. But I am willing to bet, what he will do is, instead of listening and validating, he will try to talk her out of it. It's just a fish, who cares, etc. Not because he is a bad guy (I don't think that . . . and frankly, I think I have screwed myself over trying to always look for the good in him since BD), but because he just doesn't know how to deal with her emotions. It's the same thing he did to me for years. He just doesn't get it.

Maybe so, but your approach is critical. Take the subordinate role. Before you even mention what the topic is, ask him for a favor and stress how important it is (people generally like to do other people favors, especially when it makes them feel superior). You know things have been difficult between the two of you recently, but this goes beyond that and it's really important. Get him receptive to what you are about to say...anticipatory of some action he can take to feed his ego. Then tell him about how it's more than a fish to your daughter. Express her concern and her perspective, etc., etc.. The rest is up to, and on, him.

Or you could just let them learn he is an insensitive jerk all on their own. And no, I'm not kidding. They'll pick it up pretty quickly when you stop shielding them from it.

You really can't go wrong. The kids are going to figure it out at some point.

Question: did this happen right in front of you or did your daughter come and tell you about it?

-PM

[JayMan]

You are getting great feedback, so I just want to point out I laughed out loud at "that hurt when you stepped on my toe."

[labug]

I asked about the D-land Debacle (I'm willing to be that parents fight more with each other and the kids in the midst of a vacation in The Happiest Place on Earth. But I digress) because we don't really know how you operated as a couple.

As you were describing your H it's clear that he's wounded, but most of us are. That doesn't mean you need to fix him it just means you have a better awareness of who he is. I'm going out on a limb here to conjecture that your H actually has very little self esteem and all this is bluster to make him feel better about himself. It's pretty clear he hasn't worked through the trauma of being abandoned by his H. Not your problem, except that you share children and you need to figure out how to interact with him.

So how to deal with him? I like PM's post. But let's run a scenario. In the Disney event, you led with "H, you were wrong."(I know that's not exactly what you said but go with it). You became the authority figure who was judging him and so he was immediately defensive. Predictable for this guy.

What if you had said something like "H, that situation with D and the other kid was really upsetting. I felt (angry, scared whatever}. Were you feeling angry, too?" and then let him talk and you keep asking questions, if needed. Once you open a dialog you never know where it might go but it might give you insight that will help you work out the problem. You can't go in knowing what he's going to say or trying to control the outcome. When you do that, you're dealing with the H in your head not the person in front of you.

For the fish issue, "H, I understand the fish wasn't a big deal to you but is was to D. It was her pet that you bought her so it was special. She cried over the story you made up about the murder. Were you thinking that story would help get her over her sadness?" I can't remember all the details so I made up facts but do you see the difference?

Most of us want problem solving to be quick and easy. It isn't, it takes time and steps and it starts with listening and finding common ground.

When we try something new and don't immediately get the response we desire or think is "right" we tend to drop whatever efforts we were making and go back to our comfort zone thinking "well that didn't work!" This is a process and it takes work. It doesn't just happen.

You said: "There really is no way to bring this up with him without risking getting some more hateful spew sent my way. I am willing to do that if it will help my kids, but I am not sure it will." Spew is just words and can be water off a duck's back as long as you don't believe it. Spew can sometimes mean something is shifting and the shiftee is unhappy about it so they're hanging on with dear life and trying to ward off the person injecting shift into their life.

What is this fear about his spew?

Fear keeps us from moving away from our old patterns and comfort zones because even tho it might be a crappy way to live, it's what we know. It's our crappy way. We don't even see that there can be a better way.

You won't be perfect at this, you'll make mistakes but don't let fear of that stop you from trying.

Let H out of the box you have him in in your head, the "He'll never change" box. You may be right, he may not but you'll never know if you don't try. Sometimes we have to be the first to change. Right now the 2 of you are locked in your positions with neither of you willing to budge, so things won't change if that continues.

What I see with your responses here is you're charming, you're witty, you're emotional (I mean that in a good way), you're smart, you're thoughtful, you're bound by some pretty strict rules of behavior, you care a lot about how people see you, you like to be right, you can be defensive, you want to have the last word. You have many facets, as we all do. Which of these facets has H seen most in the last year? Bring out the others in your dealings with him, don't be handicapped by by his mental construct of you or your metal construct of him.

Only when we let go of all our preconceived BS can change really start to happen.

None of this is meant to say you give up anything that is rightfully yours or that you deal with him about the financial issues face to face.

If you H doesn't respond in a way that's helpful to the family, then he doesn't, but you'll never know that until you try, consistently. 25 used to say Change + Time = Change you can believe in (or something close to that)

Remember to be grateful for today.

[labug]

*trauma of being abandoned by his Hfather