WAW seems confused

[melissag]

Just catching up on your sitch, MH. Sorry you find yourself here. Looks like you've been getting some good advice, though.

A couple of things jumped out at me. First, whether to tell the kids. Is it possible for you to talk to a child psychologist who deals with this kind of stuff? Even better if your W can go with you - that way you will both have good information of what to say and what not to say. (And oh dear lord, do NOT tell your kids you are sorry for screwing up the M. Nooooooooo!! You tell them that sometimes married people need some time apart from each other, and the details are for the grownups to worry about - and then reassure them that both parents still love them to the ends of the earth.)

I'll tell you what the psychologist I spoke with said. He said that both parents need to be there; you don't give them any more information about the M than necessary (for your kids' ages, not much detail is necessary); you make sure they know you both still love them and that this is NOT their fault. And you give them a chance to ask any questions they have. Kids want to know the practicals - how is this going to affect me?? So don't tell them anything unless you have the answer to that question. Since she isn't moving out and nothing is filed, I don't know what you would say. "Just to put you on notice, we might be getting divorced at some point, but we're not sure when, Mom needs more money, and then she might move out or Dad might move out, and we don't know where we will be living or how often you will be with each of us . . . " I don't see how telling the kids does THEM any good right now. I think your W wants to tell them because she wants to quit faking in front of them. But, IMO, that's just her putting HER burden on THEM. Again, you should speak with a psychologist - I'm just tossing out my own opinion here.

Second. I would not resist any R talk. You don't bring it up, but If she brings it up, it's your chance to listen (I mean REALLY LISTEN) and understand and validate her feelings. If you just tell her, "I don't want to get D," and that's all you say, and you don't respond to her desire to talk about the R, what effect do you think that is going to have?

About D talk. What is it that she is asking you? Is she asking you to help her plan it? I agree with LITB (I think was who said this) that you just say you don't want a D but you won't stand in her way. Don't ignore her and pretend it isn't happening, but don't agree with her or help her in any way.

If you want to, you can just ask your W straight out how she feels about physical affection from you. If she says she doesn't want any, then you just don't even try it. I think that's easier on the soul than trying and being rejected.

Like everyone says, don't expect any kind of turnaround anytime soon. Are you GALing??

[ManHope]

Thanks Paul! I agree.

[ManHope]

Melissag,
I agree with your comments.
She wants to tell the kids to lay her burden on them and to quit faking it. But honestly, why would I agree to discuss talking to the kids since she is the one with the D idea? I feel she should be responsible for what actions she is doing. I had told her once I didn't want to discuss anything with the kids unless she is really moving out (and she may not be for a long time). So for now, it may stay postponed (if she ever does go all the way through). So I have some time.

About the D, the only things she has been mentioning briefly are:
[list]
[*] Telling the kids (which I asked to please not discuss a few days ago and she agreed to drop the subject for now)
[*] When is my tax return going to get filed because she stressed (I own my business so I have to get the corporate return done first which causes delay -- not on her favor).

So far those have been the limited quick talks we have had. No deep rooted talks have been initiated about D besides those lately (past 4 weeks).

Now, about GAL, it is a bit though for me to up and leave the house. The only things I do besides work and being at the house are to work out heavily now (which has produced great results in the past 90 days). I can say that it is hard for me to decide what to really do besides taking the kids places with me. My schedule: M-F 8-5. So, since I can come and leave work whenever, I am the one getting bfast ready for all the fam and I am the one getting dinner cooked at least 3 times a week during the weekdays (I get home before she does). So, if I were to take (for example) a class or something of that nature, I could not do it during the weekdays. We all eat dinner together almost every day and then put the kiddos to sleep by 8 and I direct prayer. Any ideas?

About her schedule: Please note that her routines currently are: She works M-T-T-F from 7:30-6:30 (wed off), she does stay at home working on prepping work related stuff during the weekdays (does not go out or anything) and on the weekend, she goes shopping or see her parents or a girlfriend and when she leaves the house, she takes both or one of the kids. She is never out by herself (it is rare) and never goes out at night. She does not drink/party.

[25yearsmlc]

Good points here about both the D talk and the Kid talk. I agree!

About time leftover before the final D, I spoke to an attorney 2 weeks ago. It takes 2 months in this state but he told me he can certainly make it last about a year "sweetly" without pushing her buttons (Delaying paperwork, counter proposing items, etc...)

Ironically, he also told me to get the book "winning your W back before its too late..." by Gary Smaley as well the DB book by Michele Weiner-Davis. He told me his own wife divorced him 15 years ago and he got her back after close to a year by "taking it in the pants and not screaming" and practicing true agape love. Very interesting to see I got a counseling session out of an attorney visit. He told me he hopes to "never see me again" LOL

I have not finished your thread and don't know the rest of your story but 2 things struck me SO MUCH I had to speak now before I get through the whole thread or run out of time and go to bed...

1) I think you over simplified the troubles "at work" (b/c there was obviously a spill over at home, the controlling rude behavior sounds like the behavior of a bully. MAYBE that worked at a job...but maybe she saw things in you she didn't like, plus the behavior happened at home too (the criticisms of her food choices, changing channels, seem small but they WEAR on people, especially women who get belittled over time til there is no will left, to stay.

Be the best dad you can be right now b/c no woman is unmoved by the loving interaction of her children, with their father. It's a turn on and it's your best bet for now. DO NOT criticize them or raise your voice, etc. (Obviously don't do that to her either).

imo, you glossed over how odd it was for you not to have friends of your own, while resenting your w for having them, which was healthy of her).

A friendless spouse, is a needy spouse. Plus, when someone has no friends, it usually says something about their personality or social skills

Time to Dig deep. Time to Be brave.

The successful stories here always include a LBS who has bravely faced some inner flaws. (The WAS is not here fighting for the m. The LBS is.)

So it's OUR Job to make our journey an inward one at first. It's our job to become the best man/woman we can become, the man/woman we were meant to be. Because...

No WAS returns to a marriage they left, UNLESS they believe

that the marriage will be better/different than before.


which requires change in the LBS.


2) IF you DO end up needing to file for D or respond to hers, hire THIS^^^ L.

I am a L myself. The one I hired for me (b/c I knew better than to represent myself) was a Godsend.

The day I went to file for D b/c I felt I had not choice, my L said "try filing for a sep instead..." which had no legal advantage, but she said

"I don't know about you guys divorcing... I think you have a chance at making this work. See if you can stick this out a little longer and see..." and she was right.

So, Your lawyer visit was a gift.

Okay, thats it for now. Back to your thread....

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks guys!
What about the financial situation?
I know I can bring more in to the household but I am afraid to get an increase at this stage of the game (remember that I own my own business).

What are you afraid of? I don't get this at all. She might not have to work at all and might love the freedom to go back to school or be home with the kids...those things are appealing....Wouldn't making more money make the situation LESS stressful for all?

OR are you planning for a divorce and wanting to protect yourself (at the kids/her expense?)

Sorry b/c I know your heart is in the right place. But so far, mostly of what I see is a man desperately trying to control the outcome and manipulate his wife...again.



I rather have just enough to cover expenses instead of thinking about increasing my income now. We are basically paycheck to paycheck now since she took on a lower paid job right at the time of the Bomb. Since we didn't event talk around that time, her pay cut was surely going to get us pay to to paycheck. We are now seeing it on our accounts. We have enough to survive but not extra to save or pay off cards faster (which is what she wants to do asap).

so you ARE trying to control HER by purposely living paycheck to paycheck...

well it's not like I'm suggesting you go get a BIG pay raise, but your whole family is suffering now and your w is miserable..

I don't see how that makes You as a h, more appealing. You are using the stick instead of the carrot.

But it's all, still, about what you can do to "make her" do or feel something.

Stop mind reading her and just WORK ON YOU.

[25yearsmlc]

We aren't legally separated. So what does this mean?
I will consult with a lawyer but what would be the less confrontational way to approach it?

obviously, to let it go and stfu. NOT everything "must" be confronted.

[25yearsmlc]

She came to ask me if I wanted the kids today or tomorrow. I told her I leave that up to her because I don't have any plans.

It bugs me how she makes it a statement about hanging separately. FYI, the kids don't know our situation yet.

why don't you have plans? What are your GAL? You cannot detach, without GAL.

For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter. And I had 3 kids including a baby (so I don't want to hear about how you are 'too busy' to GAL).

Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w.

This is a partial list, btw.

I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.

I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).

I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).
I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people. I got cast, too.

I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well.
I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.
I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.

I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding.
Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.
Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)

I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. (Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly of their long LONG cold winters).

In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression. I felt more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps us FEEL better.
(I know that those tanning booths post skin cancer risks. But I was facing a LONG brutal winter, again, and made the choice I felt was healthiest for ME at that time).

Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs.

Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).

Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty.

(Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)

Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French
Took a class in Italian cooking

There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot. Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.

[25yearsmlc]

I can. Certainly. But what I am saying is that my response was to let her choose which day because I am not the one who is pushing separation.

She asked me again a few mins ago if I wanted the kids today or tomorrow and I told her "my choice is to spend time with my family 7 days a week, so I leave it up to you because you are the one pushing this" I now think it may not be the right thing to have said but I wanted her to know I am indifferent to the choice.

What I read in that^^ is "W, I still have no outside interests or friends.

= I'm NEEDY and INCOMPLETE WITHOUT YOU...(so I don't bring much to the table)

Manhope, why would you believe your answer was anything but an attempt to look like martyr and guilt her some more?

What have you CHANGED about you? Yes Yes, I know, "more time at home" but before hand your only outlet was work and home.

Now, your outlets are "work and home" but in different ratios. There has to be some CHANGE...change she can believe in.

Here's the "math" of it:

small incremental changes + sufficient time = change she can believe in

Surely there were hobbies or passions that you once were interested in?

[25yearsmlc]

Here are some "rules for newbies" that sand assembled sometime ago, with a few contributors along the way.

All based on MWD's books...not all apply to all situations, but in general, they're excellent guides.

I literally copied them and laminated them to carry around with me...

There are now 40: NEWBIES For when you get the bomb or are Reeling:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.

6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.

7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)

11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)

12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patient on your behalf.

21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!

24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell). Sometimes the right thing to say is nothing.

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.

29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.

30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.

35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

38. Know that in time, you really will be happy again, regardless of your spouse’s choices. Know this, believe it, and let it show.

39. Do not believe that showing your spouse your pain and misery proves your love for them. (It really just makes it harder to be around you).

40. Don’t worry about how the past is viewed. What matters is this day and “from this day forward.” Learn to let go of the past and what you cannot control. It’s a lot to let go of, but it is very freeing.

[ManHope]

Thanks mlc! I can and I will do my best to do more things for myself.
The problem has always been that every time I think about it, it makes me think that if I say "I am going out" or stuff like that, she may think I am doing it to make her jealous or that I have maybe found someone else. I now see that maybe the more "moral" thing to do may be to join groups, or take classes or coach something,etc... Something that is constant, that lasts more than just "going to the movies" or "going out"

Here is a summary of what I have actually done:
- Started to work out heavily since the bomb dropped.
- I joined the watchdogs "dads group" at my D school
- I led the watchdogs group at my D 5K run and volunteered at the water station,etc...
- I play the drums and have them at my office. I go play by myself at least twice a month.
- I have been seeing a pastor at my church at least once a month
- I have subscribed to telephone coaching with DB team.
- I volunteer every wed night at kids choir at the church we go to. I am my sons teacher. My W volunteers as well as my D goes there as well. We always meet for dinner at the same restaurant after since we don't see each other while at the church.

So, I have done some stuff to GAL but certainly not enough maybe? I am curious what she would say if I text her: "Hey, you need to pickup dinner on your way home because I have x to do and I won't be cooking tonight..." (Signaling that I won't be home when she gets there... You know? --- It almost seems counter productive but I don't know...

Here are some other ideas I have:
- My church has groups. I could join some of them. There are marriage groups but someone once told me I need to not work on the marriage all the time. So maybe I could join groups like music, etc... (I love to sing, play drums).
- Mixers: I stopped going to networking mixers after the bomb. She never liked me going to those. I used to go once every two months to network and since I never really go out and drink or anything, those will be the only times I would drink, which I can tell you caused me to do stupid things like getting home later than the usual. I never cheated, hit, yell, abused her or anything. I did do something stupid 3 weeks before the bomb as after a mixer I went to a str!p bar (haven't gone in 13 years) and then confessed to her but she was really upset. So... If I do networking events again, I will not drink (I quit drinking anyways). But even so, I am reluctant because of the memories it holds to her.
- I could be more involved at my D's school.
-