Still Together & Trying To Work It Out!

[Azagtoth]

Wonka,

Thanks for the 37 rules. I have indeed read those. I can honestly say I am applying all except 8 & 9 with recommendation from therapist.

We have had a scheduled "date night" for a while now (every Friday) and my wife actually enjoys these with me; half the time she initiates the plans. And I have said no before if I don't feel like it so I always have that option. As far as gifts; I have never missed a birthday, anniversary or holiday. What I will do is keep it very simple and make sure I don't sign the card with "LOVE" or "I LOVE YOU". That should keep the pressure off.

Therapist said to go ahead and keep these in place but definitely agreed with all others so I'll follow her lead for now. I finished DR; gonna give it a couple days to soak in and then read it again.

[Wonka]

Toth,

To get more traffic here on your thread, I'd suggest that you look around and post to other threads that you feel connected with or resonates for you. For updates, thoughts, & journaling on your sitch, please stick with your own thread so it's easier to follow.

[Azagtoth]

Just updating a bit:

Still working on me / GALing. Slowly turning my back yard into a personal archery range and loving my new hobby. D10 is having a blast with her new bow and has taken to it much quicker than I thought. About to get her involved in the local archery program and I will volunteer! Also getting back into my music / guitar playing; implementing a practice routine for improvement. All this is keeping me busy and allows wife to have space as needed at home.

Wife has commented on how good I am with D10; how loving/caring I am with her and she with me. I didn't have a very close relationship with S20 growing up, but I did have a good father son talk with him about everything over Christmas. He stated he has no hard feelings about anything; now that he is in the military, he can kind of understand my frame of mind at times. I told him I was here for him anytime he needed. He said he is glad we (wife & I) are working on ourselves/relationship; he doesn't want anything to happen to us (i.e. S or D). When wife heard this she let out a sigh of relief and said she is glad he feels that way.

Some things I have noticed:

- Wife and I are more supportive of each other when disciplining D10. I will not get in the way and let her handle it, but she is now more often to ask for my support when needed and I give it to her immediately and correct D10 if she is being disrespectful. Wife is doing the exact same thing...this has not happened in a while! She will be quick to tell D 10 "Do not speak to your father that way..." or if D10 blurts out something that could be hurtful (as little girls tend to do), wife will quickly tell her " You don't mean that..." or "don't say things like that....its hurtful to your dads feelings".

- Early on, just before entering MC/IC, we had a blowout and wife said we just needed to "sell the house" so we could both have our own place and space. Of course I refused this and explained we would not sell something we worked so hard for. She is typically a "nester'; always improving the home. This stopped for a while, but lately, all home improvement projects have started again. And....she asks my opinion and I give it. This is something I was always passive on and she hated it. Now I give my opinion and she appreciates it. I am currently installing a back splash and of the 3 - 4 tile choices she had; we settled on the one I picked as my favorite! I started installing this last weekend and, instead of nit-picking & "micro-managing" the project (which usually causes arguments), she let me work on it all day while she did laundry & other things. End result; nothing but compliments on my work and not one complaint!

- Wife wanted to start a consignment project with her close girlfriend. She asked what I thought (something she wouldn't normally do). I told her I thought it was a great idea and would combine something she likes to do with potential for extra cash on the side. I told her I would support her in anyway she needed! When she started to waiver on going to the start-up briefing; I gave her a little "push" to go ahead and go and told her I would adjust my schedule to support it if needed! She was so excited to to tell me everything, I pushed off my normal after work "routine" to sit and listen!

I know these are small things, but they really stand out for me! I am keeping my expectations low to zero, but things have been VERY amicable between us and I continue to support/validate her when needed and help around the house consistently. I see small signs of affection coming through that she initiates (snuggling up behind me when we go to bed, kiss/hug me when we part for the day, etc..). Baby steps but better than what it has been for sure!


Azagtoth

[Azagtoth]

Question for the Vets & successful DB'ers out there:

I have both DB & DR (didn't realize they were actually the same with DR being updated. Now, I know that it is always said that DB/DR is for us, the LBS; it is our "play book" and not to be shared with the WAS.

Question is, on the cover of DB, it states "Can be used alone or with your spouse". Is this true, and if so, at what point would an LBS "share" this book with the WAS? Has anyone ever done this before?

Reason I ask is, my WAS knows I have been reading several books on R & M. She has asked before what I am reading and is it any good / am I getting useful information out of them. I haven't actually shared the actual books / titles yet; I have shared some information I have learned from the books and internet. I generally don't reveal the sources (especially sites like this one). I only offer information when she asks; don't want to pressure her into anything.

Here is our current status:
- No threat or indication WAS wants to leave (Semi-WAS)
- Still at home; still sleep together
- Some affection & closeness that she initiates; no regular physical intimacy at this time; random and only when she initiates (I never initiate or apply pressure this way).
- Still very good friends; conversation daily sharing what we did that day; community happenings, home matters / improvements.
- Still have a "date night" weekly / semi-weekly (just me and her; occasionally with friends). Do family things often with D10.
- She does her thing (shopping, etc) whenever she wants (and I encourage her and suggest it 50% of the time) and do my GAL and activities with D10. She still requests me to do some of her activities with her & I invite her along when appropriate.
- Have been in therapy for MC/IC since November. Good Therapist and both of us are comfortable with her. Therapist says there is definite indication and signs she is truly invested in resolving our R problems and a better marriage. Just lots of time and patience on my part; just as said here and in DR.

Unless there is something "under the hood" I am not seeing, the only thing that seems to be missing from our early marriage is "her in-love feelings" (I hate that term by the way). Right now, I am just being "the new me" (for lack of a better term) and enjoying being myself again! A lot more comfortable around each other; at least it seems so.

I don't plan to share anything from DR/DB right now except with therapist in IC. I just would appreciate any feedback and thoughts on my questions.

Thanks.


Azagtoth

[AnotherStander]

Question is, on the cover of DB, it states "Can be used alone or with your spouse". Is this true, and if so, at what point would an LBS "share" this book with the WAS? Has anyone ever done this before?

A lot of people that read DB/ DR don't have a full-blown WAS on their hands, they're just in marriages that need a little help. That's when it's useful for both parties to read the book. Few of those people make it to the forums though because they don't need THAT much help. Those who find their way here typically are dealing with a WAS and should not share the book with them.

Reason I ask is, my WAS knows I have been reading several books on R & M. She has asked before what I am reading and is it any good / am I getting useful information out of them. I haven't actually shared the actual books / titles yet; I have shared some information I have learned from the books and internet. I generally don't reveal the sources (especially sites like this one). I only offer information when she asks; don't want to pressure her into anything.

Sounds like you're doing good there.

Here is our current status:

OK, well it sounds like what you're doing is working fine, so stick with it!

Unless there is something "under the hood" I am not seeing, the only thing that seems to be missing from our early marriage is "her in-love feelings" (I hate that term by the way).

Don't we all. ILYBINILWY is simply ridiculous, but we all hear it. WAS's confuse "puppy love" for "being in love", but puppy love is temporary limerence. WAS's will abandon everything they used to hold dear just to pursue an idea of love (permanent limerence) that doesn't even really exist. So they hook up with an OP (or dream of it) and they feel that puppy love and it convinces them that they were RIGHT, there really is true love! But it doesn't last, and usually by the time they figure that out they've left a trail of wreckage in their wake. That's why we work on us, because we can't fix them. They have to make that journey alone.

[Azagtoth]

Don't we all. ILYBINILWY is simply ridiculous, but we all hear it. WAS's confuse "puppy love" for "being in love", but puppy love is temporary limerence. WAS's will abandon everything they used to hold dear just to pursue an idea of love (permanent limerence) that doesn't even really exist. So they hook up with an OP (or dream of it) and they feel that puppy love and it convinces them that they were RIGHT, there really is true love! But it doesn't last, and usually by the time they figure that out they've left a trail of wreckage in their wake. That's why we work on us, because we can't fix them. They have to make that journey alone.

AS,

Thanks for the response and I see your point; will keep those to books to myself.

Yea..."in-love"...like I said; I hate that term. You either love or you don't. She already admitted she still has love for me so...

The good thing, as mentioned previously, is our therapist challenged this thought to her. She agreed; the initial infatuation doesn't last like that and my wife needed to take a hard look at initial infatuation (Love) in the early marriage versus committed love in a LTR. I know it confused my wife and made her take a step back & ponder; little truth dart never hurts. She couldn't give an answer at the time so I am quite sure this will be one of the main topics of discussion next session along with "what does a healthy relationship / marriage look like" the therapist asked a couple sessions ago. Therapist already has my answer and told me "you get it"! Now she has to work on her!


Azagtoth

[Azagtoth]

So, just an update; any comments welcome. This will be a long one as I sort out some things our therapist discussed and what she recommended for me to do with wife.

During my IC with our therapist, we talked about a few things and whether or not the wife and I should talk about things at home. I haven't pursued any R talks unless wife brings it up first. Therapist told me that we should not wait to talk about things only during session. She will discuss and give solutions to issues with us, but she actually encourages us to talk at home together, whenever comfortable, to get us used to communicating, discussing our issues calmly, and allow us to work through things together. When these discussions happen, I should NOT apply pressure and just speak of things "matter of fact" and propose them as ides to think about. This is somewhat against the DB principles, but a couple of you said to go with & follow what the therapist says to guide us.

One of the things our therapist agreed on was the distance & pursuit / push & pull dynamic in our marriage. This was brought up after I had been reading Sandi2 & Smartcookie's threads and they talked about "role-reversal" in one of them. This is exactly what has happened as with some of the sitch's I have read. My wife was the pursuer and I was the distancer. I started noticing she wasn't pursuing anymore so I confronted which led to the BD. From that point, I started pursuing & she distanced. After I read that, a light bulb went off. I text my therapist on this and told her that, in my opinion, until the distancing stops, we can't make any progress. The therapist agreed and said when the opportunity arises, to offer that observation as something to think about; make it clear I am not pressuring her, but propose it as what it is and it is a marriage dynamic that would need to change for progress; obviously when wife was ready. She said to continue to exercise lots of PATIENCE; break off the conversation if wife starts to get uncomfortable!

The opportunity for conversation finally happened. I was reading one of the eBooks I had purchased early on (not DR/DB) that talks about many things discussed in MC/IC; among them was distance & pursuit and interdependency in healthy marriage versus co-dependence / independence. Wife knew I had this book before and expressed interest in it. I offered to share it with her and she accepted. I had told her that some of the concepts in the book were in-line with what had been discussed in MC/IC. She was about half way through it; (it's a hard read at times); and she finally asked how the book compared to things we/I had discussed with therapist.

Before we discussed anything I made it very clear that nothing we were about to discuss was to pressure her; I would simply share what the therapist and I had talked about and would offer it as ideas she could think about on her own and discuss in IC if SHE felt it was appropriate.

- I explained the distance & pursuit dynamics; how they had been throughout our marriage and how they were now with role-reversal. I compared it to the example in the book. I told her about the discussion with our therapist and how we would remain stagnant until distancing stops and joint steps towards a solution(s). Wife thought about it for a minute and agreed she could see what was happening and yes, we couldn't make progress that way. I reaffirmed this was just something to be aware of; take HER own time to think about it, do what SHE felt was right for her; discuss in IC if SHE felt it was appropriate!

- Next, we talked about what a healthy relationship was. This question was proposed to wife in IC and wife shared with me that we were to think about that for a future session. As mentioned previously, I had already had a positive discussion on that topic with the therapist. Since it was mentioned in the book, I offered what was discussed; about interdependency; being committed to each other in the marriage but still being ourselves and supporting each other in positive ways. Allowing each other to pursue individual goals & happiness while still sharing ourselves with each other. Certain needs (intimate / emotional or otherwise) would be met with each other, but NOT ALL needs could be met in this way. This is where our own interests and happiness come into play. It's one of those things I "get" but difficult to articulate, but she appeared to respond positively to it. Bottom, line; we support and share with each other, but we don't hold each other back. We won't always agree on everything, but that's healthy too!

- Next thing that came up was her feelings of "in-love"; how she wasn't "feeling it" and wasn't sure if they would ever come back. This wasn't really a topic I wanted to breach; I understand it, but not something I can articulate of felt comfortable trying to explain. So, I kind of reminded her of a couple things the therapist asked her to think about:"What is the difference between the initial 'in-love' feeling at the beginning of the relationship versus what it is in an LTR?" and "Is love a feeling / emotion or an an act/action?". Wife agreed they were both, however, in her opinion, you can't show or have love unless you "feel" it already. So, I offered what I had discussed with our therapist. When you fall "in-love" with someone, it just doesn't happen out of the blue. Sure, there is an initial attraction, but, the feelings arise over the course of "showing" interest & acts of love to one another. This is where the action comes in; one shows or express acts of love / caring which is then received and reciprocated back. So yes, they are both, but it initially starts with the giving in order to receive. That doesn't mean we won't have those "romantic" & "passionate" moments, but long term, it's more of unconditional love by choosing to commit, support & love each other through giving to each other. Of course she stated that I am doing all those things but she isn't "feeling" it and doesn't have the urge to reciprocate. To this I reaffirmed what had already discussed in session with our therapist; wife has a wall up. That wall was used to protect her from the negativity and neglect and force numbness. That same wall of protection is what keeps her from opening up to receiving & reciprocating those feelings. At this point, I kind of smiled and jokingly said "Ya know, I have no doubt you reinforced that wall a bit; can't allow any positives to break through now can we?" We both laughed at this and she confirmed that she was on guard hard in the beginning. I re-affirmed it's understandable; this was something SHE had to look at; only SHE can take that wall down (same thing therapist already told her), I can't do it, but I was there to SUPPORT HER when SHE was ready.

Ironically, at this point, she brought up her switch back in in December and admitted she decided to let things just "happen" and go with what she "felt" at the moment. She confirmed those were her feelings/emotions coming out (nothing was faked or forced). She couldn't articulate or understand at the time why she pulled back, but now she realized it was the "look in my eyes" when I picked her up from the airport; she believed the look and the way I openly greeted her that I thought everything was "fixed" and her guard went back up and she had to push me away so I knew things weren't fixed yet. This is exactly what AnotherStander quoted for me from Accuray previously in this thread about them running "Hot & Cold". I validated; told her I understood and if she felt she wasn't ready/safe yet, she should pull back. I did not let that bother me; this is a long process and I would support her need for space any time she needed it. She said this is partly why she has distanced me so hard this time; she is afraid of sending "mixed-signals" (hate that term too)! Sometimes she wants to be close to me and then will feel the need for space; she is afraid I will expect more if she does this and doesn't want to confuse or hurt me. I validated this and told her I understand and assured her I would hold no expectations and accept any closeness she offered at face value and enjoy her company as it was. I told her she was welcome to get close and pull back as she needed; she was welcome to verbalize this and I would take no offense; I would never pressure and accept things for what they are. However, it was something SHE needed to think about and do what was comfortable for HER!

That pretty much ended the discussion. I decided that was enough; actually more than I wanted to discuss but I just let it flow for a bit. I thanked her for her time and conversation and I appreciated her honesty. She brought up the fact about how nice I had been through all of this (she stated this before; didn't understand why and felt I should hate her & not love her anymore). I simply reaffirmed that was my CHOICE; I CHOSE to continue to care (stayed away from the word "love") for her because I do; the way she feels or doesn't feel DOES NOT affect my feelings! I reaffirmed that I appreciated everything she has ever done for me, our kids and the marriage. She is a very good, loving & caring mother and irrelevant of the current situation, she was still a great woman & wife!

She stated she liked our therapist, but wasn't sure if she/we were getting enough from the sessions. I told her that for me personally, I got more from the IC sessions; I understand things can get tense in MC and hard to say. (note: I have done more IC than wife due to my work / availability being more flexible). Wife stated she might need to have some IC sessions before our next MC session. I told her to do what SHE felt was best for HER.

So, having zero expectations, I just threw things out as food for thought and wasn't too worried whether or not anything came from it. At best, maybe I planted some seeds to think about or for her to discuss in IC/MC.

This morning, got up as usual, gave her a kiss and good morning and went about getting ready for work and some light discussion with wife about our upcoming day. Out of the blue she cut in and asked could I confirm our therapists phone number for her. Sure; I text it to her. As she was getting ready to leave, she gave me a hug and kiss and said she was going to make an IC appointment with therapist today about the things we talked about. I just smiled and said OK; whatever you feel is best for you!

Zero expectations, but was nice to see maybe the seed I planted my sprout something positive. Nothing has changed for the worse between us; still get along really well and close friends. Still share activities and projects together. Still in the same bed. just lots of time & patience!

Thanks for reading!

One question; are we considered piecing at this point? Not that it really matters but kind of curious what constitutes piecing.


Azagtoth

[MrBond]

No you're not piecing. Piecing is where the WAS actively and consistently does everything they can to encourage the marriage.

Right now you have WAY too much talking. How about doing something spontaneous. Don't TALK about love, passion, etc. Just do it. Act as if you were dating her for the first time. How did you spark her interest then? Do the same.

[Azagtoth]

No you're not piecing. Piecing is where the WAS actively and consistently does everything they can to encourage the marriage.

Right now you have WAY too much talking. How about doing something spontaneous. Don't TALK about love, passion, etc. Just do it. Act as if you were dating her for the first time. How did you spark her interest then? Do the same.

MrBond,

Thanks for the feedback. The talking only occurs when SHE brings it up and I agree, I should have limited the discussion. Will definitely back off of these unless in MC/IC in session. I have to walk a fine line between DBing and following guidance from our therapist.

As far as the dating, yes, I have been doing this and I do mix it up so that we don't do the same things over again and get stagnant. Some of things we have done in past 6 months:

- Regular "date night" on Fridays (sometimes switch it to Saturdays just so we can relax after a hard week). Usually go out to eat at a different restaurant each time and different activities (dancing, movie, local attraction, etc). I arrange everything & get the sitter for D10.
- Signed us up for ballroom dancing lessons; just did one day and said "we're going" (already had a sitter set up & lessons paid for). Something wife always wanted to do; I was always skeptical. Has turned out to be really fun and we both enjoy it! Have focused on swing dancing and is a blast and good exercise.
- Shooting; wife expressed interest in this and took some shooting lessons. I have always liked to shoot. We do this occasionally and both really enjoy it. She gets a bit competitive with me on this!
- Going out with friends (dinner & clubs). do this with a specific group once a month.
- Took her out to one of "my" hang outs one night she never been to; just kind of surprised her with it. She actually enjoyed it and we been back twice (at her request) since then and had a good time!
- She invites me to go do her things too; just different things to hang out and spend time together.
- She is not the "outdoors" type so taking her hunting with me and things like that wouldn't work. We do enjoy historical stuff (museums, historical sites, etc) antiques, upcycling things, etc and have been doing things like this together. She is a "nester" so home projects / improvements are things we do together.
- I surprise her with dinner ofteen; I usually get the "i'm not really hungry" comment. I just say "ok" and cook anyway. Almost every time she eats something anyway and positive comments. I try to experiment with new recipes out if my comfort zone to mix it up.

Some of the above items are new and some are things we did together dating. My wife's LL is definitely QT & AoS. These are things I slacked on a lot over the years so, I do try to mix it up when I can, but I know she enjoys the time together and doing about anything together! This is really what pulled us together; it never really mattered as long as it was quality time together!

One of the things I have been doing is actively listening when we talk about general things (work, current events, home related items, etc....nothing R related). Being the "fixer", I always wanted to "solve" the problems. I don't do that anymore; I listen, validate, empathize. I found this relaxes her and sets the tone for good interactions for the rest of the evening. I found she has become interested in my day and asks often how things are and how my day went. I share it all with her.

I am planning a vacation for us; we haven't vacationed together forever due to both our work. I dropped a subtle hint that we need to "get away" for a week and just go do something fun over spring break / early summer when D10 goes to G-ma's for a month. Not letting her know what it is or where! We'll see how that goes. Also planning a surprise outing at an amusement park very soon with her & D10. One of those "get in the car and don't ask" type of things!


Azagtoth

[MrBond]

How about "intimate" activities? Have you done anything to mix that up or try to start it up?