Barrybran III - New job, new life?

[Barrybran]

I'm looking forward to work this afternoon. I'm in a reflective mood this morning, a bit of a funk really. I do really well when I have somewhere to be and no clue when I don't have places to be.

Anywho, my daughter was sick this morning and my wife and I discussed leaving her home from daycare today. My wife left for work and I organised the girls and my sick daughter wanted to go. They only go one day a week at the moment so I know she really wanted to go. I checked her temperature and it was fine so I sent her with her sister. My wife asked me to take our vacuum cleaner into work so I dropped it off after dropping the girls off and she collected it and went back inside with just a "thank you".

My wife sends me a message just now saying "did you forget to tell me X went to daycare?" In my head I'm saying "no, I didn't forget because you didn't ask and you never do." I struggled a bit with the actual response, typing and deleting a few times. I settled for "I wasn't asked if X stayed home. She wanted to go to daycare so I checked her temperature and let her go."

So bloody frustrating sometimes.

[Barrybran]

Well, this conversation could be interesting. I'm sick and tired of my wife saying one thing and meaning something else so I'm standing up for myself now. She replied that we discussed me keeping her home. That's true. She didn't ask whether I actually kept her home though so now I'm getting grilled for not answering a question I was not asked.

[Barrybran]

Grrrr, decided to pick my battles instead. I validated, apologised for not telling my wife of the change in plans and said it wouldn't happen again.

OK DBer's, advice time! My wife is NOTORIOUSLY bad for not asking me things. I'm not a mindreader, never have been, never will be. I do take things too literally in life however I know that if I have the right information I can't screw up. It's something I should be more flexible on but I also find myself in trouble when I assume things instead of just asking. My wife KNOWS this about me.

Since it's a repeat problem, do I let my wife know that it's a problem, wait until our situation improves and let her know it's a problem or just let it slide and try to anticipate my wife's wishes?

[Barrybran]

I think things have gone backwards for sure now. I thought my kids were being dropped off at my wife's store this afternoon so I bought groceries so my wife could just finish work and go home instead of dragging the kids through the supermarket. It turns out that our babysitter was going to leave our kids at home with my parents and my wife was heading home alone. She questioned why I bought the groceries and told me she told me of this plan. This morning's issue, I honestly can't recall and there's a chance I may have not heard or tuned her out. This afternoon's issue was clear cut to me; she was wrong.

I thought enough was enough. The miscommunication was getting out of hand. I told get I was frustrated by it and that I'd like to discuss it. I told her I enjoy things more when we get along. She replied that she told me everything and I was the one who miscommunicated. It's like talking to a brick wall.

I get home tonight and she's watching TV. I know this is not a time to disturb her but the kids have been horrible for her. I settle the kids while she watches her shows and ask her in the ad break how her day was. She replies "long" so I leave it.

I understand this is about happy, not right. I understand there is a time for both parties admitting their roles in the present situation. But boy is it frustrating to work with someone so stubborn and not be in a position to call them out on their nonsense. Instead, I have to go back a few steps and play nice.

[Barrybran]

That was a vent earlier. Completely anti-DB, I know. My wife went to bed and was good enough to let me know how she was feeling. Long story short, it turns out I hadn't been listening as well as I thought I had been and that I had been bringing her down. Admittedly, I'm not sure if this really is a recent thing or a totality-of-our-relationship thing so I've got some serious inward looking to do. She brought up how I make her feel, the reason why she thinks I do this, what she hopes to achieve for herself and what she has done already regarding our situation to achieve her goals. Basically she's thrown me a massive bone whether she knows it or not, whether she intended to or not. It was a 2x4 and some.

As for the why, it was very insightful. I have above average intelligence and those closest to me know it. My parents, my brother, my wife and my friends. I've always felt smarter than nearly everyone I meet. As a kid, I was quite arrogant because I knew it. I used to put my brother down quite badly and even now, I'll take a friendly dig at him that upon reflection, could be taken quite poorly. Apparently, I've also brought my wife down by treating her as being inferior to me. She called me on it a couple of months back but apparently it's still an issue. I made a reference earlier in this thread about my Dad jokingly calling me Sheldon from Big Bang Theory and that's more accurate than I like to admit, especially in the sense that I may treat people condescendingly without actually realising it. My wife has been kind enough to put it in big neon lights for me.

My wife is adamant she's on her own journey but her words feel like a great, big "lift your game." Does anyone know of any decent books on communication and listening?

[Lostforwords]

There are books specifically on communication B, none that I have really read. I am going to recommend two different types of books....Since they aren't in competition with DB, hopefully the moderation will let them stay.

There is a book called the road less traveled which is an excellent resource for relationship type stuff. A lot of it is on communication and seeing people for who they are, not what we want to see. The other (and my preferred resource book) is the "7 habits of highly effective people" by Stephen Covey. I like this book as it starts out focused on you and then switches to bringing those changes to interacting with others. Fix yourself first, then change your world type mentality.

I think your wife gave you some good insight. This "Sheldon" thing is definitely going to be a good change for you. That type of personality is going to lead to poor communication, etc in all your relationships. Just to give you a dose of reality on it, it will carry over to work and worse yet...someday to your kids (trust me....once school kicks in it will be hard to help your kids with school work). So we have some work to do with this nugget.

As an FYI for you....I graduated (with honors) with a degree in Physics and a minor in mathematics. I also like to add as a joke....I am only 3 credits short of a degree in psychology. So I am one of those above average intellects....but I know that a wise man knows he doesn't now it all.

[Bunches]

That was a vent earlier. Completely anti-DB, I know.

I think we all do this, one of the great benefits of talking here each day is to put these thoughts somewhere they won't get back to W.

[/quote] Basically she's thrown me a massive bone whether she knows it or not, whether she intended to or not. It was a 2x4 and some. [/quote]

I think that's great! Sounds like a tough 180 to pull but as I heard someone say the other day, at least you have something you know is a problem to work on. I think a lot of guys though could say they could be more respectful of their W's thoughts and opinions.

[25yearsmlc]

That was a vent earlier. Completely anti-DB, I know. My wife went to bed and was good enough to let me know how she was feeling. Long story short, it turns out I hadn't been listening as well as I thought I had been and that I had been bringing her down. Admittedly, I'm not sure if this really is a recent thing or a totality-of-our-relationship thing so I've got some serious inward looking to do. She brought up how I make her feel, the reason why she thinks I do this, what she hopes to achieve for herself and what she has done already regarding our situation to achieve her goals. Basically she's thrown me a massive bone whether she knows it or not, whether she intended to or not. It was a 2x4 and some.


This^^ is good "intel" for your reconnaissance mission. Use it.


As for the why, it was very insightful. I have above average intelligence and those closest to me know it. My parents, my brother, my wife and my friends. I've always felt smarter than nearly everyone I meet.

When you say those closest to you know it, what is it that they know? That you are smarter than them, or that you think you are? Are they all unintelligent?

And if you feel smarter than everyone you meet, have you tried to join things where the people challenge you more? OR do you want to be the smartest one? I'm asking sincerely.



As a kid, I was quite arrogant because I knew it. I used to put my brother down quite badly and even now, I'll take a friendly dig at him that upon reflection, could be taken quite poorly.

1) I'm impressed that you are looking at this^^^. Lots of 180s come to mind.

2) "as a kid" you were arrogant. Meaning, you are not arrogant anymore? You "used to put" your brother down, but you still do, so...

and "upon reflection, could be taken quite poorly..."

Honestly, how else could it be taken? Who enjoys being put down? Why do you do it, do you think?

(And no, the reason cannot be "because" of your IQ)

To me, the behavior sounds more like bullying & criticizing than anything else.

I don't see any connection to IQ in that^^^...

Apparently, I've also brought my wife down by treating her as being inferior to me. She called me on it a couple of months back but apparently it's still an issue.

"apparently"...it's still an issue b/c you still do it. "Apparently" her telling you that she felt torn down b/c you treat her like an inferior, is a reasonable response, but you ignored it. Why do you think you did that?

And yes I put "apparently" in quotes to make a point. You KNOW these things are true but use the word "apparently" as if you are surprised. But are you, really?


I made a reference earlier in this thread about my Dad jokingly calling me Sheldon from Big Bang Theory


why do you say he 'Jokingly" called you that? Maybe he meant it 100% but said it in a way that would not trigger a put down from you...just a thought.

But fwiw, if my PARENT told me something like that, I'd really look at it and take it in and process it and use it for my benefit. It would not go unnoticed.

I would look inward, big time. I think that's what you are doing and I commend you for it. This is not easy. You have to be brave to dig deep.

I suggest you look at a workshop called "Essential Experience" (aka "EE") which is for individuals, but helps couples/families a lot. I've gone to different workshops for personal growth but EE was, by far, the most profound.

I have often felt insecure about being a small woman, with certain physical attributes that got noticed more than what I thought mattered, i.e.., my body instead of education or intelligence.

This was partly an inherited education snobbery within my family, and partly my own character defect, and maybe some sexism back 25 years ago, as I was in a mostly male profession.

Since EE, I have come to see there really is some commonality in all people, and the universality of what it's like to have your heart broken, can be an incredible bonding experience.

I'm friends in RL with about 9 DBers. We are from very different backgrounds and we vary in age by about 30 years....and yet we are very comfortable in our friendships and it's a wonderful source of support.

At EE I sat next to a phone operator (it was awhile back!) and immediately I assumed we'd have nothing in common...or not a lot.

But as the workshop went on, I came to really like her. Then she cut to the chase and asked THE question lurking in the back of our minds the whole time...which was

"If I'm so special and wonderful, why is the person I loved most in the world, NOT loving me anymore?"

ouch...and she was spot on. I'm still friends with her now, after 20+ years, btw.


and that's more accurate than I like to admit, especially in the sense that I may treat people condescendingly without actually realising it.

Barry, forgive me for this 2 x4, but I think you could have realized it long ago but chose not to. Something in you liked doing it. So, how are you going to replace that behavior with a new positive one?

You can learn what "NOT to do" but if you don't also learn what TO DO, you'll revert to your old ways fast and in times of stress (which will be often if you end up piecing with your w). Your wife's biggest fear, I suspect, is that if she returns to the marriage fully, you'll keep putting her down...

Do the "math";

Small consistent changes + sufficient time = change She can believe in.


My wife has been kind enough to put it in big neon lights for me.

My wife is adamant she's on her own journey but her words feel like a great, big "lift your game." Does anyone know of any decent books on communication and listening?

aside from the workshop (fastest way to grow, imo. Like 2 years of therapy in one long weekend) and the books mentioned, you might try some of Marianne Williamson's books on handling fear and anger.

She's too new agey for some, but I found her exercises on forgiveness and handling anger, really useful. Same for Wayne Dyer (some). A book called "Boundaries" is good for ways to communicate said boundaries too.

As for listening, make eye contact when someone speaks. Do NOT interrupt or finish their sentences for them. PAUSE before you reply, so you are not rehearsing your response while they are still talking, b/c that's not "active listening".

The real journey here, is an inward one. Dig deep. Be brave. You'll become a better man for it, and that matters.

Become a man only a fool would leave.

When you truly have done that, then turn the marriage and your pain and anger, over to God...Leave it in His ands & go in peace, holding your head high knowing at the very least, you saved yourself.

DBing is mostly about US saving ourselves, becoming better people. Sometimes our marriages get saved then, too. (And other relationships benefit too. As you become more mindful of how you sound to others, perhaps you can ask your brother for feedback now and then. Tell him you are working on it and later on ask him how he thinks you are doing with it. Do you have the type of R with him that would allow that? Do you want to have that type of r with him?

I know you never meant to hurt anyone, but something in you felt the need to "level the field' by putting them down (as opposed to simply lifting yourself up)
If you really felt inwardly lovable and secure, that would not occur to you.

Either way, as we dig deep and do OUR work, we become happier, more loving people. That is the guaranteed result of this ordeal/journey, if you make that journey.

It's not a guaranteed reconciliation, but recon will Not happen and last, without the journey.

[Barrybran]

Thanks 25. It probably sounds absurd but dealing with this perception that I belittle people now, as a 30 year old, is new to me. I certainly understand if someone had have told me that as a teenager but for my wife to tell me this was shocking and devastating.

My wife said that I believe I'm more intelligent than everyone around me and I make sure everyone knows it, usually through passive means. She said I manipulate situations to make people believe what I think to be true. Both of these were certainly traits I had as a kid but I genuinely thought I had grown out of these things.

I guess it's such a big shock because I don't see myself this way but she was very clear and to the point when she told me this.

[25yearsmlc]

Just to copy a part of what was in my post to you:


So, how are you going to replace that behavior with a new positive one?

You can learn what "NOT to do" but if you don't also learn what TO DO, you'll revert to your old ways fast and in times of stress (which will be often if you end up piecing with your w). Your wife's biggest fear, I suspect, is that if she returns to the marriage fully, you'll keep putting her down...

Do the "math";

Small consistent changes + sufficient time = change She can believe in.---

(End of previous post)

My h's bff, is a great h and a truly fine dad too. He really is.

So when I met HIS father, I was very surprised to discover bff's father was a real jerk. Turns out he'd been m 3 times, had A's, got one of the OWs pregnant, so he left BFF's home (& BFF's mom, with 5 kids)

married OW and had a 2nd son (BFF is his eldest of 2 boys, with 4 daughters too) After 2 years, he and OW/W#2 divorced.

He married a 3rd time too. Later on, his 3rd w left him and filed for D.

He became a Swirling Vortex Of Negativity, and finally took his own life on Thanksgiving. NOT a great role model for much.

As you can imagine, we were shocked by this, and found it ironic b/c h's bff is one of the best h's and dads, that we know. We were at their wedding and they were at ours, now more than 30 years ago...

Bff once said "thanks to my father, I know what NOT to do in a m...but I had to find a positive role model b/c I didn't know how GOOD men act under certain situations...I don't know what TO DO when times get hard.. and I worried that I'd be like my dad if times got tough or life was too hard, inside the m..."

And so, he found a great role model for handling stress (his FIL) and another role model for balancing family and work issues (mentor at work)...

SO, what are you going to DO to replace the negatives you are working on, with positives? How are you at giving Compliments? Try them instead of making your "observations" known (which may be what you think you're communicating, but not what listeners heard, b/c they are hearing a cutting remark).

Any candidates?

There are also books on this, communication, not being negative, changing our mind sets so that we are more positive and thus, more appealing and inviting to others.

I can suggest 2 things for you for now. 1) Try reading the Five Love Languages by Chapman. It's not revolutionary but it does remind us that how WE GIVE love, may not be how our spouses want to receive it, and what they Do to SHOW US THEIR LOVE, we may have given short shift to, b/c it's not how WE express love.

Words of affirmation, physical touch, acts of service, gifts, and quality time are the main 5, but naturally that can change/evolve. These are ways we express AND OR Receive love.
My h receives love via physical touch and words of affirmation. He gives love with acts of service and touch. So there's not a complete

you watch some TED TALK videos. (2012 series) One recently was about positive psychology, (Scot Achor) and Amy Cuddy, who speaks on how our physical movements and posture affects how others see us AND HOW WE see ourselves and more surprising to me, how it helps us change.

Sort of "outside in" work, which was really interesting and useful. I saw it on Netflix but I've seen some other TED talks on you tube. They are not long to watch and I found some insights that had more depth than I expected. (IOW, they were Not all superficial or blindingly obvious remarks, you know?)

Keep at this. You may well be able to turn things around.