WAW seems confused

[trc2009]

In other words, if you guys weren't having marital problems, would you approach paying down debt in the same way?

[ManHope]

Thanks Trc, I shouldn't worry about this and just focus on what we were already doing. Not more but not less.

So, since the goal of DB is for the D not to happen, are we to assume we hope for the WAW to reach to us at some point in the future instead of us ever reaching for a possible chance to demonstrate true repentance by confessing our wrongs and asking for forgiveness (Not reconciliation but just forgiveness)? All by making it clear we don't expect a response or that we don't deserve it.

I know my initial attempts before DB where to beg, plead, try to tell her she was making a mistake, etc...All these always caused her to cry and get upset and of course she wasn't going to forgive and react positively as I was telling her she was wrong. I have not tried to ask for forgiveness. Just forgiveness. I know both Gary Smalley and Gary Chapman push the "confession" without telling your spouse she is wrong or pressuring her to forgive.
What I found interesting by exploring those Authors is that Smalley quotes the DB book about not doing "more of the same" -- So I know there is some influence there. Thoughts?

Also, have you heard about the term "closed spirit?"

[ManHope]

What do you think?

[ManHope]

I am interested to see what people are classifying as milestones. I know we are supposed to set goals. Is it true to say we are to wait indefinitely for the WAW to bring up R or M talk? Ex: Lets say 3 months passed and yet no D is filed, but you live in limbo (an awkward state of confusion). Is the true expectation to wait for the WAW to reach out?

[MrBond]

No one said that you had to wait "indefinitely". First of all, it doesn't help to speak in absolutes. Concentrate on the day to day rather than what may or may not happen 3 months from now.

Your goal is to keep the positives going. If you continue to talk about the relationship, then all your WAS will do is concentrate on the negatives. You make changes and create the positive environment going and see what happens. Write it down and journal.

[trc2009]

I can confirm that with Bond based on my experiences so far. But you have to TRULY detach. Learn the 180's forward and backwards and practice them every minute of every day (not just when you're around your W).

Again, don't act like you're moving on with your life, actually get on with your life (that doesn't necessarily mean moving on with your life w/o your W). Focus on things you can control and find joy in. For myself, it was my kids. But also doing things I did before I met my wife. Working out. Spending time and doing stuff with friends. Diving back into work at full force. Just to name a few.

As Bond said, things like that are all positives. And you have to focus on those things every day. It's amazing what it will do for your attitude when you're not constantly thinking about your WAS. Obviously you'll still think about them. You'll do it a lot. There probably isn't 10 minutes that go by that I don't think about my W and M. But 3 weeks ago, I thought about her for 9 minutes out of 10. 2 weeks ago I thought about her 7 minutes out of 10. Now, I probably only think about her every 2-3 minutes out of 10. And that's a healthy level (for me at least).

You can't let it consume you. It's hard to do but you have to WORK to not let it consume you. You and only you can make that change and it won't happen by accident. It takes work and more willpower than you've probably ever had to muster.

Like Bond said, keep the positives going!

[zew]

a possible chance to demonstrate true repentance by confessing our wrongs and asking for forgiveness

I did a lot of thinking and reading on the topic of "forgiveness" once I found out about A with OM. A few days after the "too little, too late" bomb, I wrote my W a note, validating her thoughts, confirming that I had failed, committing that I would work to better myself and be more worthy, and that I wanted to improve our R. That was my one time only position statement, no talk of R or M ever again.
Of course, she openly mocks that note, but no matter, my position is known. But by mocking it, she was telling me she doesn't believe it. And this is what everyone here will keep telling you. It's what you do over an extended period of time, your true 180's that will be the proof. She may not even buy those, but that's all you've got. So knowing that, the confession of your wrongs isn't that important, certainly not to her. It will be the prolonged noticeable righting of those wrongs, and you don't need her to participate in that.
Now as for forgiveness. I will forgive my wife for the A, because if I don't, the anger and negativity will corrode my soul and affect me and make me bitter. So the act of forgiving is an act of self preservation. Now about being forgiven If you have recognized your faults, and have truly made changes to improve yourself, what more can you do? You should be of clear conscience. You can't forever blame yourself for your earlier ignorance of your faults. At that point, how much does someone else's approval matter? Point being, her forgiving you or not is not going to change your course of action to improve yourself. And if you follow through, then I think forgiveness of your faults becomes her issue, not yours.

[ManHope]

What about daily communication?

She seems to avoid talking or even making eye contact. We talk with the kids at the dinner table or exchange a word or two when its about regular chores, bills, kid stuff. She never says hello or goodnight, etc...

I noticed that when she wants to say something across to me, she may say it addressing the kids (she knows I am right across from her). So I hear it and then I ask her, she responds briefly but does not get in to a lengthy conversation (so she does share a bit about what happened at work or so -- but super limited).

I don't push either, but it kills me to not to be able to have regular conversations.

I am keeping a good attitude, doing my chores, having good times with the kids and helping around the house all I can (which are things I enjoy doing) and seems communication is all I am lacking.

[zew]

What about daily communication?

I have very much the same experience as you.
All conversation with kids is as normal, though. I hate that your wife talks to you through the kids.

I make it a point to say good morning when she comes down.
I make it a point to say hello and ask her how her day was when I arrive home from work. It may or may not lead to a short discussion, usually not much. But I do it as a 180 because complained that I wasn't interested in what/how she was doing. She also once said that while she would phone me at work in the middle of the day to see how I was, I would never initiate that call.
And I make it a point to say good night, if she isn't already asleep.
If we happen to be watching TV together (rare, since she is usually in hiding) then I will make comments about the show to try to draw her in. I just want her to know that she can talk to me without pressure, but she usually isn't interested. She talks to her friends throughout the day, so she largely gets that need satisfied. It would appear that she is working hard to prove to herself that she really doesn't need me for anything.

I am keeping a good attitude, doing my chores, having good times with the kids and helping around the house all I can (which are things I enjoy doing) and seems communication is all I am lacking.

Same here, and I don't know that there's anything to be done but be patient.
But it makes it really difficult to 180 infrequent communication when someone doesn't want to talk to you anymore.

[trc2009]

I think that type of communication is normal. But it's communication regardless of how it's expressed and as long as it's positive that's a good thing.

I've gotten in the habit of saying "goodnight" or "have a good day" when I get off the phone with my wife or leaving the house or something like that. She has always reciprocated with no hesitation.

Consistentcy and patience as zew said is probably the key.

The way I look at it is this. There's three types of communication in our situations. Positive Communication, Negative Communication, and No Communication. I thank God I still communicate with my wife. Some people here don't have that. If we do have communication w/ our spouses, we have to make it a point for it NOT to be negative communication. It has to be a mandatory. Negative communication will get us nowhere.