melissa - gotta get back to me

[melissag]

Just kind of journaling because a thought struck me. H's text to me yesterday was just more of the same crap he's been doing for years (and that my D9 identified on her own a few weeks ago and says she hates).

When I say anything to my H that indicates I am hurt or angry or [insert any non-happy emotion here], he turns it back on me.

I don't know why I would think it would be any different now . . . I guess I feel like since I have noticed these things and worked to change them, he should too. Snort.

[bluesgal]

M-So sorry things have gotten so ugly for you. Ick! Your H is more interested in projecting and blaming than problem solving.

My H used to do the same thing. If I was ever hurt or upset, he would get upset at me for being upset instead of saying, 'Is everything ok?' 'What would make this better for you?'

Ugh. They are definitely not on pedestals anymore.

[25yearsmlc]

Too much time to think while cleaning out the closets.

So when H says cruel things to me (the "I fvcked up by sleeping with you" comment is really getting my goat right now . . . as though it was a one time drunken romp rather than many times of deep talks, family time, him telling me BS about how maybe we will work things out, etc.) . . . I should just ignore them?

If I ignore him, does that not indicate that I accept him treating me so cruelly?


NO. What's to "accept"? He's NOT asking you a thing.

Don't look for an excuse to bitch slap him for "treating you so cruelly". HE does NOT THINK HE is...so your "acceptance/anger" makes no difference to HIM... EXCEPT you will appear to him, to be crazy mean if you tell him he's being cruel to you, when he does not see that.

Yet on the other hand, nothing I say is going to make him see that or feel badly about it. It's not where he is. Or, sadly, who he is anymore.

Bug, you talk about figuring out where your anger comes from . . . and I see what you are saying. Your example with your H the other day was a good one. But what do I do when my H doesn't care?

what is there to "do"? You stop looking to him for validation.

Assume your "real h" is in the Australian bush and til HE returns, you have to deal with someone who has bad data about you, flawed data. Their behavior is not relevant to who you really are. So it just can't matter so much.

So I can identify why I am angry. But I can't go back to my H and say, "it really hurt my feelings that you said X." He doesn't care.

So what do I do with that? I feel like my only choice is to eat it. And that is making me feel quite resentful.

this resentful feeling is self inflicted^^^^...IF he does not care, you let go of that. You don't consume it and internalize it. It's HIS issue.

Why are you "eating" any of it? "Eating it" is a victim's view of things.

What are the 180s and GAL things you are doing for YOU, NOW?




In fact, the resentment has been building in me this morning as I think about the way that my H has treated me lately . . . it goes way beyond insensitive.

How do I reframe that?

How? It's Simple...no, it's not "easy", but it is not complicated.

You say "I sure enjoy creating MY new life, making more happiness and fulfillment for myself and my chlldren.

Your h is not in the equation.

Your sole focus is your children and yourself. DO you get that? Your SOLE focus in NOT ON HIM...not at all.

let that be a goal of yours if it's not available yet, internally...

("where the head goes, the heart will follow...if we let it"...) So, let it.




And to anyone who is interested in giving me input on how to deal with my H . . . I emailed him yesterday (before the text debacle) and told him that I would be willing to try to work things out with him using lawyers as consultants only, but that I would not accept any further shame, false accusations or attacks on my character.

You can choose NOT to feel shame. Does what a homeless man says, the words from a man living on a street grill, "make" you feel shame? Do his "false accusations" hurt you? No, b/c you know that their 'data' about you is false.

Same goes for this. You could have said that a lot simpler. You want to be treated with respect and not have him throw HIS version of the past, in your face every time you two meet. Gee, that would be like YOU bringing up adultery and selfishness and cruelty to the children for abandoning them like his dad did, evert time you two meet.

and we know HE does not want that....so of course YOU don't want his anger, again...if he cannot see what role anger is playing in his Present choices, then he's in denial about yet another thing...but in time he either sees that and cares enough to change, or he does not.

Let go of the illusion that what you say or do or think, will affect him at this time. Save yourself the energy and heartache, and get back to YOU.

I mean, you are saying you will play nice and do what HE wants, divorce wise, IF he will be ..."polite" to you?

Do you see how much power you are CHOOSING TO GIVE him??


(This was in response to the nasty email he sent earlier this week.) I also responded to his accusations in a very factual manner - i.e., the bank account I have been using to pay the mortgage is a joint account we have used to pay the mortgage for three years, etc. I refrained from any kind of defensive or smart aleck remarks (though there were plenty to be made given the ridiculousness of his email).

GOOD^^^...keep at that. It MIGHT sink in...and you'll have remained calm and dignified. Someday that will matter to you a lot.

You'll never guess what his response was. "I am willing to call off the lawyers. I don't understand why they were called in the first place."

that's his "fog phase" talking...laugh it off or roll your eyes (not in front of him) and move on...

So you know how people always say not to have any expectations? I was so mistaken about how I understood that. They weren't kidding when they said "no." As in zero. Less than zero. I didn't realize I would have to drop the baseline expectations we have of all human beings - like basic manners, regard for others, etc.

well, lesson learned. Ratchet that stuff DOWNWARD...oh, btw, on our wedding day my h's Russian grandmother (uber Russian, accent and all. She totally fits the stereotype of the negatively programmed, etc) said to us, "IF you don't expect happiness, you won't be disappointed."

I thought it was hilarious at the time (ON our wedding day!!) But now I see that in her wacky way, she was preaching DB before its' time.

Back to the point - he later emailed me and said, "Can we get together face to face next week (name the time and date and I will make it happen) and talk through this? Electronic communication has never been our best medium."

(Which made me laugh, because, if you're not listening to or caring about what the other person is saying, what difference does it make if it's face to face or over email or by pigeon express?)

Hey, lost that anger. He's saying he wants to be understood, not misconstrued. And hey, you want that too.

So I guess I am to just ignore the fact that he ignored everything I said in my email, and agree to meet with him? Honestly, I don't know what he wants to meet about. Does he think we are going to sit down and agree on money and parenting time in an hour? I am so seriously dreading this. But the alternative is to let someone else (who doesn't know me, H or our children, and charges $425/hr) figure this stuff out. Blech.

Au contraire. I really like you having an advocate for YOU/KIDS...and to me, The alternative is keeping the ugly business SEPARATE from your interactions.

So Maybe give this^^ ONE chance and if it works, great. You saved money and remained calm.

You need "Decide" NOTHING at the talk. You can LISTEN. You can tell him you need some time to process whatever proposals he makes.

If the proposals are absurd on their face, you can say "Wow h, I don't want my emotional response to this 'proposal' dictate my answer, b/c It seems so one sided and unfair. So yeah, let me withdraw from this now so I can KNOW I have not let my pain/hurt, make my choices." Let him ponder that, if he's capable. If not, so what? You still took your time.

IF perchance he suggests a FAIR proposal, you can still sleep on it before answering. And run it by YOUR lawyer.

As an aside, every time I talk to my H, I see the things that we both used to do in our R that were damaging - not doing them myself anymore has really opened my eyes to see just how bad they are. And it's frustrating now, to deal with him continuing to do them. The assumptions, the extrapolations, the little comments thrown in to remind the other they were right . . . ugh.

Lose the scorecard. It never helped. It was always a bad thing for the m.

Now, it'll be HIS scorecard for him to live by, not yours. Let him see how well it works in his next r...

as for You, your road is getting clearer, smoother, as it winds around the corner of life.

Things are moving now, & your life is evolving. Adapt, and you'll thrive. Truly.

[labug]

My response isn't a lot different from what 25 wrote.

Bug, you talk about figuring out where your anger comes from . . . and I see what you are saying. Your example with your H the other day was a good one. But what do I do when my H doesn't care?

Mel, what I did was all for ME, not about my H. I wanted to get thru the anger, know what I was feeling, and be able to communicate my needs having the best chance to get those needs met. It doesn't matter who you're communicating with, parents, bosses, kids, spouses, friends, you do the same thing.

However, it is arguably more important with a seemingly uncaring spouse to be able to communicate with as little anger as possible. You're immediately behind the 8-ball when you lead with anger and pain.

You must let go of trying to change him, and expecting or wanting him to care (your definition) is trying to change him. I actually think he does care, he just doesn't care the way you want him too. People rarely do. We're all different but different doesn't mean wrong. Yes, he used the nuclear option but that's all he felt he had left.

So I can identify why I am angry. But I can't go back to my H and say, "it really hurt my feelings that you said X." He doesn't care.

You can say it but it may not elicit the response you seek. That's where you often get tripped up, you want to change but only if it gets the results you want, which are often unrealistic. (you burnt your solutions journal eVEN tho it seems you were getting results, just not exactly the result you wanted in your time frame)

But you don't have to say he hurt you, the goal is to be able to communicate in a way that's reasonable and not blaming or shaming. He probably sees you much as you see him. Ever think about that?

So what do I do with that? I feel like my only choice is to eat it. And that is making me feel quite resentful. In fact, the resentment has been building in me this morning as I think about the way that my H has treated me lately . . . it goes way beyond insensitive.

Eat what? Do you believe everything he's saying, or everything you think he's saying. As 25 says, he has corrupt data or he has only parts of it or what he lived with that you've now changed. That doesn't mean your changes aren't true, he just hasn't experienced them enough to believe them.

Own your changes! Live them in every interaction.

[3boymom]

Hi M - I have been reading along but don't have any great advice. I am just soaking up all of the advice you have received. I hate having conversations with my H about anything other that superficial issues. He just does not get it and he has his own view of the life. I always leave the conversation. Feeling worse than when it started. My H shows NO remorse for his A. He honestly just does not get it at all. We were talking last week and H was saying that we are very different and that i did not want to do things that he suggeseted. H brought up a time a year ago that we were on a date and I did not want to go to a particular bar with him. He said i refused to go with the flow and do something he wanted. He completely did not understand at time and still does not understand that I did not want to go to that place because it was the bar that my H and OW and coworkers went to often. It was the same place that they were at when they both got their DUIs. I passed that place everyday on my way home and it would make me so upset. I cheered in my car when the bar went out of business a couple months ago because it was a symbol of my H's A. My H still does not get why that place hurt me. He may never understand the depth of the pain he has caused me. But I have learned that this is my H's problem, not mine. He is living life with a major character flaw. I am convinced it will come back to bite him at some point in his life. It does not help in the moment when their comments are beyond painful, but once the emotions settle down I realize that I would NEVER want to trade places with my H. And that makes me feel a lot better.

Big hugs. Enjoy having your kiddos back tomorrow. I hope you were able to enjoy your alone time!

[25yearsmlc]

just so you know that they don't always know...

once, during the whole nightmare but before h left, I asked him if he thought I was bluffing about things being a deal breaker, or if he was "just willing to take the chance" of losing his family.

He replied "Guess I"m willing to take that chance." At that moment, I was speckling our wall in the guest bathroom. Why tell you that?

B/c h SWEARS he never said the above. Moreover, he claims he'd "never say anything like that" and I believe he sincerely does not recall it.

But I do. (Hence my "eye witness" details).

I KNOW he said it. But Melissa, my h does NOT recall it at all. Believes he'd "never" say anything like that b/c he's "never felt that".

So, you really cannot take their words seriously at this point. I mean, heck, a chunk of what is happening between you two now, will be forgotten by him. OR remembered very differently and it won't all be b/c of his bias. Some of this is due to their fog.

Much as I bemoan the obsession about "MLC" terms versus "WAS", etc. I also recognize that truly new, different behavior can be so new or so different or so...emotional, that they do not recall it all.

So if you hold onto the idea of him feeling regret/remorse or him "Caring" about you, and you place YOUR happiness and mental health on that, you are setting yourself up for a lot more pain than you already are facing.

Hence our mantra. "Detach, Let Go, and move forward..."

I don't know if he'll ever want back into the marriage. He may never have any second thoughts. I know he won't if you only show him your pain and anger.

And I KNOW that if you make it so hard for him to try and return ("Climb Mt Everest to PROVE you are really truly SORRY! Then, MAYBE I'll look your way but I might throw it in your face every time I'm angry or hold it over your head for life...

OR IF HE BELIEVES THIS^^ WILL HAPPEN...then he won't bother even telling you of his regrets. You'll never even know about it.

And it's just too darn hard to feel detached, or be detached if you are focusing on your pain and or, HIS actions.

Focus only on what positive actions YOU can take for YOU and the kids. Period.

I say this b/c it works. Take it in BEFORE you reject it or say it does not apply yet

and maybe, maybe you can stop the focus on Your FEELINGS...which is a bit like what your h does, don't you think? (Feelings are his guide. Don't let feelings be what determines how you behave. THINK things out and guide those feelings.

[bluesgal]

M-I'm with 3, I don't offer any profound advice, but enjoy reading the great feedback from the posts here and agree. 25ymlc and labug are so aligned in their advice and I respect what they have to say.

I think it is very possible that your H is in a sort of fog right now and may have many regrets in the future...or not.

Don't respond to his nastiness. He will never see it your way anyway. Don't engage him. I'll try to take my own advice

[keep_going]

Melissa,

If you take the time to read back in your own threads, you may recognize two distinct patterns:
a) people offering broadly the same tips / advice
b) more importantly - your reactions to that advice. your focus and thought process have also been following a consistent pattern.

Think about that - perhaps it helps you understand why you feel stuck and overwhelmed...

Really - take the time to slow down, think about things, let it all sink in... it will be worth it.

I know you have heard this plenty already: nothing needs to be decided today.

((((melissa)))))

[Mimi00]

If I ignore him, does that not indicate that I accept him treating me so cruelly?

Yet on the other hand, nothing I say is going to make him see that or feel badly about it. It's not where he is. Or, sadly, who he is anymore.

Bug, you talk about figuring out where your anger comes from . . . and I see what you are saying. Your example with your H the other day was a good one. But what do I do when my H doesn't care?

So I can identify why I am angry. But I can't go back to my H and say, "it really hurt my feelings that you said X." He doesn't care.

So what do I do with that? I feel like my only choice is to eat it.

Something I learned from the book I mentioned in my previous post, was to duck their harsh jabs (as in don't take them personally, [because as we've heard time and time again] it's not about us )
Then when you get your footing, swing back with a shot of reality that you're a human being w/ feelings by simply saying "ouch, that hurt" (or something w/ similar effect) then move on.

The key is to no longer make long drawn out statements that say how much we hurt because of what they are doing and saying (that's just more of the same from most of us), but instead let them know directly as soon as it happens w/o our emotions getting in the way, that what they said was unacceptable and they're a jerk by using a statement like "wow, that stung".

In most cases, this will cause them to immediately see what they said/did that was hurtful and allows them to know in the moment and why it was negative. They may not apologize right away, they may even say you're being sensitive, but it helps them to be more aware in the future and hopefully not continue saying things that are hurtful.

[labug]

Good reminder ^^^ for all of us.

This process is slow going, it took me a long time, it took k_g a long time, some of it is just time.

But at some point we both (and I think I can say this is true for k_g, too) had to stop fighting and accept that we could control only ourselves. Changing perspective is so helpful. Allowing that his POV is just as real to him as ours is to us. Letting go of the need to be right.

Take control of your life. When he does something that you deem hurtful, takes some deep breaths, step back and observe.

You can think "Hmmm, that seems interesting, or silly, or crazy, or not well thought out, or downright untrue, BUT (a good place for a but) I don't have to join in. I can just stand here on the sidelines and watch."

Really do take some time to just be.