melissag XII - must. detach.

[artsy]

My .02-- I think S is the way to go right now. It gets you the legal protection, but avoids an even bigger decision you don't seem ready to make.

[melissag]

Thanks, Artsy. I think you are 100% correct.

[labug]

Could a little bit of both be true? I ask because this sounds a lot like me in the early days of my situation. Been there, done that.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here.

"it's just the way that H has judged the fact that I am strong and self confident and not afraid of conflict. He views that as me being a "pain in the ass" or "having strong likes and dislikes" or "always insisting on getting my way" or whatever it is. See, because H is a chameleon and a pleaser and he views his inability to make hard decisions (or even easy ones) as being "flexible," which is what he thinks all people should be."

That sometimes you could be a PIA and sometimes he was a wishy-washy pleaser.

-and-

There were sometimes that you were standing on principle and he was being flexible.

Or any combination of the above.

The more you judged yourself the more you felt judged by him, the more you got locked into the your roles and here you are. (I know you've had tons of homework thrown at you but look up Karpman drama triangle author Forrest, it's a short read)

It all depends on perspective and our character. To be able to hear what others say, look at our behavior and if what they say has some validity, change something -or- to look at our behavior, realize we're OK with it and say/think, Thank's for you your input but I'm good.

Are you working with your C about why you judge yourself so harshly?

FIL story: My FIL and I had a similar R to what you describe. He was the MAN of the house who came home from work, sat in his chair and MIL waited on him hand and foot. I was appalled. (judging)

He was also a pontificator, no one had ever done anything quite like he had. (judging)

I felt that he didn't appreciate my razor wit and intelligence.(judging) He and I sparred a bit, both trying to prove how right we were. I had something to prove.(weakness)

I finally figured out I was looking for something from this man that I was never going to get...and why did it matter? I was also judging him, which was not my place. I had to figure out what was off inside me, that made it matter. He didn't dislike me, I didn't dislike him (well, maybe a little) and the kicker was he LOVED, LOVED, LOVED my children and was a wonderful grandfather to them.

He could have his opinion of me (and to this day I don't really know what that was) but it didn't have to be my opinion of me. (Q-TIP Quit Taking It Personally)

So I took off my gloves. I accepted him for who he was, saw the good in him and let the rest go. He had no power over me.

You R with your FIL may be different but this is how we give our power away by getting all wrapped up in what others think of us.

There was also a little anger with my H at these times that he didn't STAND UP and rescue me with his Dad. H was confused. He knew his Dad, he had accepted how he was long ago and was able to see him for what he was but still love him as his Dad. H couldn't understand why I just couldn't let it go.

I now get it, I wanted someone to take care of me and heal wounds that were visible only to me.

I needed to rescue myself.

Melissa, you are a strong and beautiful woman (no matter how tall you are, or how much you weigh, with or without botox). Don't give away your power.

[melissag]

That sometimes you could be a PIA and sometimes he was a wishy-washy pleaser.

-and-

There were sometimes that you were standing on principle and he was being flexible.

Yes. That is true. There is no "always" or "never."

I feel like I have spent so long in denial about my H, myself and my M, that it is going to take me some time to be able to see things clearly. I'm not even sure I know which thoughts are reality, which thoughts I made up in my head, what H said that I internalized, which thoughts I came up with as part of my protective armor, etc.

I know that I look back on some of the things I stood up for, or nagged H about, and I cringe. Because they really didn't matter. But I also know that much of this was part of the dynamics of our R. Because I don't do it with anyone else. It's kind of like this insecure and indecisive part of me - it's not me. I don't feel that way with others.

It all depends on perspective and our character. To be able to hear what others say, look at our behavior and if what they say has some validity, change something -or- to look at our behavior, realize we're OK with it and say/think, Thank's for you your input but I'm good.

As you can probably tell, when it comes to H, I have not been good at this. At the beginning, I was. But then H kept telling me all of the things I did wrong and all of the ways I was horrible. And it got harder to say, "I don't think that's true, I'm good. But thanks." It started to make me feel like crap. He would tell me I was not normal, that other people weren't like this, that I was waaayyy on the wrong end of a spectrum, etc. And he would come up with this stuff after "extrapolating" (his words) from what I said instead of taking what I said at face value. Random example: I would say let's not go snorkeling with the kids today because there was a shark spotted at our beach this morning; the same beach where a woman had her arm bitten off by a shark 5 days ago. And he would say, "you don't ever let them do anything fun or have experiences - you just want to keep them in a bubble." In that case, there was no reasonable argument. It was a bunch of always and nevers (which I asked him a billion times to please stop using, and he refused), and accusations that didn't even match up with what I said or anywhere near what I thought, or anything even resembling reality. So no, I didn't think, "gee, maybe what he is saying is valid, and I should consider that and whether I need to change it." Because when he says always and never and exaggerates things to make me seem like a crazy person, I can't even back out of it that far to figure out a reasonable argument (if there was one) and decide whether it was valid.

So I would do one of two things. Dig in my heels and reject what he said (without looking to see if there was any validity to it), or internalize it and feel like he just didn't like me. I just kind of accepted after a while that my H would never see me for who I was, or appreciate me for who I was. So (you can probably see in my posts), I go between rejecting what he says and thinking he's a jerk who is out to make me feel like crap, and feeling totally rejected myself and wondering if I really am crazy and defective.

I still have trouble with deciphering what is the truth and what is normal and reasonable. That's why I need lots of feedback and encouragement to make decisions (and why maybe it seems like I let people make them for me).

It's kind of like how I have been affected by H's P/A behavior. I don't trust people anymore. I wonder if they are saying what they mean, or if they are really thinking something else and it's my job to get it out of them so they are not mad at me. It's frustrating. And then I wonder, is it reasonable to take what people say at face value?

Are you working with your C about why you judge yourself so harshly?

Not directly, no.

I feel like it's a thing people do. Especially women. We are all so hard on ourselves. We have discussed that I need to treat myself like I would a good friend, so that it something I am working on, but we haven't tried to figure out where this came from, no.

I finally figured out I was looking for something from this man that I was never going to get...and why did it matter? I was also judging him, which was not my place. I had to figure out what was off inside me, that made it matter. He didn't dislike me, I didn't dislike him (well, maybe a little) and the kicker was he LOVED, LOVED, LOVED my children and was a wonderful grandfather to them.

He could have his opinion of me (and to this day I don't really know what that was) but it didn't have to be my opinion of me. (Q-TIP Quit Taking It Personally)

So I took off my gloves. I accepted him for who he was, saw the good in him and let the rest go. He had no power over me.

You R with your FIL may be different but this is how we give our power away by getting all wrapped up in what others think of us.

I see what you are saying here. I just don't know how to do that. Yes, I can say, "oh well, who cares what my FIL thinks of me." But, when my H agrees with HIM and not ME, then it becomes more than just what my FIL thinks. It becomes what my H thinks. And am I not supposed to care what my H thinks of me? And then when it's me and H and FIL together, I feel like I am ganged up on. I feel like there are two people who don't like me and I get defensive.

A big problem in our M was that I just wanted him to like me. I must have said that 1000 times.

I now get it, I wanted someone to take care of me and heal wounds that were visible only to me.

I needed to rescue myself.

That's a really good observation. I have thought of my H as being this way. He basically brought his five, 10, 15 year old self into our M, with all the emotional scars (and really, open wounds) that came from his childhood. And he expected me to heal them.

I guess I probably did the same.

I feel like our M was such a mess, probably from Day 1. And maybe I am stupid, but somehow I don't see that as a sign that it would be impossible to have anything else. I feel like H and I have a lot going for us (there is a reason we were such good friends for several years before dating), and if we just worked at figuring out our own issues, and at how to understand, accept and respect one another, we could have a great M.

It hurts a lot that I think that, yet he thinks this is all my fault, and the easiest way to feel better is to get away from me and find someone else to put a band aid on his wounds.

It svcks.

I think I have ventured far from your point, labug. I just feel like such a mess sometimes.

You R with your FIL may be different but this is how we give our power away by getting all wrapped up in what others think of us.

I need to really think about this. I just don't know how to do this. I feel like I have two states of being: either I don't give a sh!t what anyone else thinks (did you see me raise my fists and get in my fighting stance?), or I get totally enmeshed and I let others' opinions of me color my opinions of myself and chip away at myself esteem.

Thus, my ping ponging between wanting to take care of my H and fix him and help him and give him everything he needs, and being angry about how crappy he is making me feel, and that he hasn't even acknowledged that he ever did anything wrong.

How do you get to that in between place? (I am successful at this with most people in my life, just not my H. Not sure if it's him in particular, or just the fact that he is my H.)

Maybe this just shows that it never would work with my H.

[Underdog]

Melissa,

I can honestly see how you'd feel with your FIL. I know Bug is challenging you to reframe what you consider "the truth". It's fabulous - no, wonderful - advice. Truths are often visible when you put on new glasses. Try 10 of them on, and things just don't seem so black and white.

OTH, I also know what it's like to be instantly disliked by someone (my inlaws) who doesn't even know me. Mr. Wonderful knew they'd be like that - they'd made his life uncomfortable with his previous long term GF and they were also like that with his SIL. He warned me that his mom told him, "We're a family, and that means the 4 of us." And true to form, before they even met me, his mom told him, "I'm not sure I can like Betsey because she's Catholic." Let's just say that was a recurring theme in our nearl 15 year marriage. Mr. W. DID stand up for me, but it just made him miserable. So I understand a lost fight.

It took me several years after he moved out to see how I could have done things differently. I don't mean to make them like me, because that was a lost battle. But if I had to do it all over again, I'd make sure that he NEVER felt as though he needed to do that. It wore him out. I knew his loyalty was to me. So what was left? Principle? Getting the point across? Sometimes, there is nothing to be done to fighting someone else's demons, whatever they are and no matter how unfair they might be.

I still have trouble with deciphering what is the truth and what is normal and reasonable. That's why I need lots of feedback and encouragement to make decisions (and why maybe it seems like I let people make them for me).

It's kind of like how I have been affected by H's P/A behavior. I don't trust people anymore. I wonder if they are saying what they mean, or if they are really thinking something else and it's my job to get it out of them so they are not mad at me. It's frustrating. And then I wonder, is it reasonable to take what people say at face value?

It's not up to you to decipher or put them in the position of trust, Melissa. It's up to you to have your own boundaries and morals and to decide which of them are important enough to enforce and which are their business and you're judging - or if it's your business and they are judging. I love a concept that I learned from D16's special ed teachers along the way: "If this, then that". It's how they teach her.

If conditions exist where they aren't truthful with you and you don't like it or appreciate it, then.... (fill in the blank). Enforce YOUR boundaries, but don't go looking for trouble. And if your boundaries are just nonsense or absolutely weird or completely not reality, then run them by your IC.

Even without "teaching" my P/A husband to change with me, I did it and enforced it. He'd tell me he'd be some place for our D and not show up, I went anyway. I didn't mention it to him, didn't nag him and let my D19 stew. He let HER down. And when he'd call to make an excuse or apologize, I'd tell him, "It's not me who's hurt - it's our D. Why don't you explain to her?" Boundary enforcing. Not my circus, so I let the lead monkey be accountable to the one person he hates hurting. He changed, Melissa. But before then, I'd have read him the riot act and gone for his jugular. Nothing would have changed.

And YES, it's reasonable to take people at face value. Assume they shoot straight. But if they don't, then do something about it.

I feel like it's a thing people do. Especially women. We are all so hard on ourselves. We have discussed that I need to treat myself like I would a good friend, so that it something I am working on, but we haven't tried to figure out where this came from, no.

While I agree it's something women are good at, it's not normal. It's that hyper critical judging voice that yells words like should, not good enough, etc. It would be great if you explored that voice with your IC to find out why it gets the loudest voice in your head. You wouldn't say those things to a friend, so why are you allowed to say them to yourself? And worse? Why do you consider it "the truth about Melissa"?

I feel like our M was such a mess, probably from Day 1. And maybe I am stupid, but somehow I don't see that as a sign that it would be impossible to have anything else. I feel like H and I have a lot going for us (there is a reason we were such good friends for several years before dating), and if we just worked at figuring out our own issues, and at how to understand, accept and respect one another, we could have a great M.

It hurts a lot that I think that, yet he thinks this is all my fault, and the easiest way to feel better is to get away from me and find someone else to put a band aid on his wounds.

Go back a thread or 2 and re-read Gineen's comments to you. Melissa, what if you *didn't* take this at face value and assume that you hold all the blame here? WHAT IF you could see that your H is a flawed man and maybe his perceptions are far from reality too?

I need to really think about this. I just don't know how to do this. I feel like I have two states of being: either I don't give a sh!t what anyone else thinks (did you see me raise my fists and get in my fighting stance?), or I get totally enmeshed and I let others' opinions of me color my opinions of myself and chip away at myself esteem.

Thus, my ping ponging between wanting to take care of my H and fix him and help him and give him everything he needs, and being angry about how crappy he is making me feel, and that he hasn't even acknowledged that he ever did anything wrong.

How do you get to that in between place? (I am successful at this with most people in my life, just not my H. Not sure if it's him in particular, or just the fact that he is my H.)

Melissa, this is Co-Dependency, and it is not healthy. That battle is an internal one, and I can tell you that it took the better part of 3 years for me to change on this front. It's not going to disappear in a few months. You're going to have to stick to a program that works for you and teaches you how to enforce boundaries that are truly yours and leave others be. If it means you have to leave the R altogether to be healthy, then so be it. I've lost a few friends doing this, and while it's sh!tty to do it, I've been much better off in the long run. Hell, I even had to do this with my cousin, who practically grew up as my sister. It's hard, but you have to learn how to take care of yourself and not enmesh with others.

Maybe this just shows that it never would work with my H.

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle. In a healthy marriage, both parties are willing to compromise to making things better. Both parties are willing to consider the spouse's feelings before doing things. And both are willing to put aside their wants from time to time because their spouse needs that from them.

We're all here because we didn't have that. Some people don't know how to do anything differently. They're unhappy, but they're not willing to get help to become happier. Some of that is our stuff to clean up. But more often than not, it's a reflection of them when they choose otherwise.

And sometimes your questions will just have to go unanswered. It's up to you to learn how to be okay with that.

[Underdog]

p.s.

and being angry about how crappy he is making me feel,

Noone can make you feel anything.

It's up to you to say to yourself, "X does this, and I don't like it. I need to consider why I'm angry." Or maybe it's "
when X does that, I get angry. I know it's unreasonable, so I'll figure out why it bothers me so much."

I'll bet my mortgage that it's tied to: "X did that, and I'm hurt because he didn't consider my feelings when he did that. I made it worse by not letting him know (in a loving way) that I was hurt, so I'm angrier at myself for not speaking up."

[3boymom]

[quote] He would tell me I was not normal, that other people weren't like this, that I was waaayyy on the wrong end of a spectrum, etc. And he would come up with this stuff after "extrapolating" (his words) from what I said instead of taking what I said at face value. Random example: I would say let's not go snorkeling with the kids today because there was a shark spotted at our beach this morning; the same beach where a woman had her arm bitten off by a shark 5 days ago. And he would say, "you don't ever let them do anything fun or have experiences - you just want to keep them in a bubble." In that case, there was no reasonable argument. It was a bunch of always and nevers (which I asked him a billion times to please stop using, and he refused), and accusations that didn't even match up with what I said or anywhere near what I thought, or anything even resembling reality.

I laughed when I read this because my H and I have had the same argument a million times with a bunch of always and nevers thrown around. Come on M, you should know by now that you just have to live life and if your kid gets eaten by a shark, it will just be a good story to tell buddies while out drinking Men! My H always accused me of being a hypochondriac and for taking the kids to the doctor when they were sick. This is probably why my H's colon burst at the age of 32 and he went into shock before he got himself to the hospital because he took some tums and thought the pain would eventually go away.

While I know that your H is acting like an a$$ right now and definitely has some things that he needs to work on, make sure that you dont rewrite history. I would not starting questioning whether or not your M was doomed from the start. By all means, point out your H's faults because he has many. But also don't let his actions now define your entire history together. Our Hs have rewritten history. And I know that all LBS HATE it. They have taken a handful of events and arguments from the past and decided that those events are representative of the entire M. They have lost sight of all the good times. Don't follow in their path.

We already know that you are a smart chick!! Which leads me to believe that your H has not always been like this. Yes he has his things that he needs to work on. You still love your H and all the good things that he offered. We all know that we hope that our Hs eventually stop rewriting history and remember the good things we offer instead of just the bad.

[melissag]

I knew when I typed that, that someone was going to jump on that one.

I don't think I agree that nobody can make me feel anything. For example: when my H tells me that, since he bailed on our M and moved out of our house, he is the happiest he has ever been - that makes me feel hurt. I don't see a way around it. I mean, I can tell myself that it has nothing to do with me. Yes. But it still hurts. I can no more control my emotional pain than my physical pain, can I? You would never say, "that hammer that fell on your toe doesn't hurt unless you let it." Umm, no. It hurts. How is H saying that not H making me feel hurt?

I'll bet my mortgage that it's tied to: "X did that, and I'm hurt because he didn't consider my feelings when he did that. I made it worse by not letting him know (in a loving way) that I was hurt, so I'm angrier at myself for not speaking up."

That was it some of the time, but it was also this:

"H did that, and I am hurt because he didn't consider my feelings when he did that. So then I did let him know that I was hurt, but he blamed it on me, which just compounded my hurt."

I am not saying that I always let him know in the appropriate (loving) way that I was hurt. I handled things poorly a LOT. I own that. But how I feel doesn't always end with me. I learned that in this M, my feelings were, more often than not, invalidated.

I can't count the number of times I begged my H to just acknowledge my feelings as valid. But, and he has admitted this (and thinks it's OK), he would play judge and determine whether I was allowed to feel hurt (or angry, or whatever it was). Included in his criteria was what he intended (rather than how it came out or how I viewed whatever it was), whether HE would be offended (and the answer was almost always NO), and whether he believed that I felt that way.

I truly don't want to play the victim role. And I do believe that we have to find happiness ourselves, not wait for someone else to provide it. But I'm not sure I buy it that nobody can make me feel a certain way. I am willing to be convinced, but at the moment I just don't get it.

Betsey, did you get your coffee??

[melissag]

Thanks, 3. Just for the record, the shark story actually happened in Hawaii last summer. I wasn't even exaggerating to be funny.

And yes, my H also thought I was a hypochondriac, and would accuse me of lying about being sick because I was trying to get out of doing something I didn't want to do. He never believes the kids when they are sick or hurt either. He has said he needs to see blood or vomit to believe it.

Is that a man thing?

While I know that your H is acting like an a$$ right now and definitely has some things that he needs to work on, make sure that you dont rewrite history.

Thank you for this. It's a good point. Right now, I just feel really down on H and our M. It's hard to believe any of the good things were really real, because I see now how emotionally dishonest my H is/was, and now I don't even know what was real or genuine.

[melissag]

Well, this is a crappy day. I find that I don't cry too often anymore, but when I get going . . . ugh.

I don't even know what is upsetting me. I think it's just a combination of things. Definitely the prospect of filing something is upsetting to me, on a number of levels. Knowing (well, not knowing, but signs pointing to) that my H has found himself someone to replace me just plain hurts. Just the overall feeling that I am a piece of garbage to my H. Regretting the things I did in the M that led to my H leaving. And looking at how much of myself I lost in the M is really hard. Wondering how I could ever consider another R after going through what I am, but thinking the alternative of being alone forever is also terrible.

I think I need to get myself together and go out and do something. I don't think it helps that it is below zero here and I am hunkered down at home.