melissag XII - must. detach.

[melissag]

3, thank you for the book recommendation. I ordered it on my Kindle! I read the first few chapters waiting in the pickup line at school (don't even get me started on the fact that I had to sit in the line long enough to read three chapters), and I like the way it has the different perspectives.

Yes, 3, our Hs do have some similarities, that's for sure. And we have some similarities - we are both super smart and awesome.

My guess is that your H will never willingly disclose his A to you or anyone else in "real life". He may tell a few friends that will enable this behavior. But my guess is that no one that was a part of your life together will find out. Because they will call him out on his poor decision. And that would bruise his ego. You have mentioned that your H is very concerned about his ego and his image. I am sure that he will want to keep his "family man" image going for as long as possible.

I don't know. H sure has been full of surprises lately. He may be self absorbed enough that he thinks that other people will think he is cool if he has a girlfriend like, 5 minutes after separating from his wife. His user ID on match.com is the same username he uses for everything, including his email address, so it's not like he's trying to hide it. I truly think that he has it in his head that he is entitled to do whatever he wants for his own happiness, and that there is nothing wrong with it whatsoever. I don't know about the M status of the OW (other than she is married), but I am guessing he wouldn't want it getting out for that reason. I am sure that is probably part of the reason it is so exciting.

I don't understand why your H is having an A if he is so obsessed with nobody finding out. Doesn't that give him a hint that maybe he is ashamed of what he is doing? I don't get these guys. Truly.

When it is no longer a secret and a R in the open, expectations and obligations are immediately attached. Your H (and mine) does not like expectations and obligations.

That's a good point. It's why I can never imagine being part of a secret relationship. It would make me feel so sh!tty, like I'm not good enough for anyone to know about it. Who would put up with that? (I mean, unless she is also married and thinks it's really fun and exciting too.)

This really explains his sudden change in direction between Thanksgiving and New Year. Your H is enamored right now and is acting like a complete alien. However, that does not mean that your H, the H that you married, will never return. All you know is that right now, you don't want to be with the current version H. And that is ok.

Yes. It was more Christmas and now. The last time we ML was on Christmas Day - the same day the texting bonanza began. I feel really gross about it now. Then I went to CA for a week, and they texted all week long, and when I came back was when he told me we should start making permanent arrangements. So the timing really does line up.

The thing is, 3, I wonder whether the H I thought I knew really ever existed. From what he has said to me, his behavior was him trying to be a certain person, and he just never was. So does that mean that he has never been the kind of person who thinks having an A while M, with a M woman, is inappropriate? I just don't know. I have no idea who he is. I guess I will see in time.

My hope is that one day he will wake up and see the destruction that he has caused and take ownership for it. My H is not there yet, although I can see that he is not as blind as he once was.

What was your H like before all of this started? I know that for a few years pre-BD he was horrible. What about before that? Was he a great guy? Did he change? I am just not sure whether my H can ever change "back" into something good. Maybe he's just not good at all. Is yours?

At this point I am not holding my breath that my H will ever see or care about the destruction he has caused. For two reasons: (1) the way he is behaving shows me that he is completely self centered and cares not one whit about anyone else; and (2) his father has done much worse, and seems to have zero remorse whatsoever. I used to tell myself that he wouldn't follow in his father's footsteps, but ummmm, so far he has. (My L almost scolded me for having married him to begin with. She said she sees it all the time. The Dad cheats/leaves/abuses, the kid says no way will I be like that, and lo and behold, ends up just like that. I just pray that I can somehow keep my little boy from carrying on the legacy.

[quoteAnd my guess is that your H has NEVER thought about the idea of you being with OM. Right now, he is fully consumed by his own life. He was unhappy and is focused on becoming happy. He probably thinks that you will be sad and stuck and will not move on. [/quote]

Yes, he probably does. And no, he probably hasn't. I don't think he thinks of anything other than what pleases him at the moment, honestly. It won't make me go out and find some guy to go out with, but yes, I might throw something in there like 25 said she did with her H.

He never considered the possibility that I would move on and would not be sitting around waiting for his family dinner once a week.

I remember reading your post about that convo and my mouth just gaping open in shock.

At least your H would bring the diaper bag. My H still does not bring one when he takes the kids, including S1. At least I no longer have to deal with the consequences. I have no idea how our Hs have been able to succeed in their careers.

That's the annoying part. My H would say "I don't want to be responsible" or "I'm not capable of planning things." And then he would do it at work. And I would say, well how do you do it at work? Ummmm. IDK?

M - You are handling this so well. I really believe that we are meant to find out certain information at specific times to help us with our decisions and to keep us moving forward on our journey.

I am not sure what is going on. I haven't even shed a tear about this OW thing. I was up most of the night thinking about OW and D and S and all that, because it's a big decision, and because I can't understand why this OW would be so stupid as to be M and then have a secret whatever you call it with a man who is M. Ew. So I was thinking about it all, but I just don't even feel that hurt. It was like I somehow just knew this was going to happen. Or maybe nothing surprises me anymore? or maybe I just don't even get hurt now because I know this has nothing to do with me.

Now, if he brings my kids around her, THEN you will see me roar.

[melissag]

Melissa, I honestly don't know when. But aside from our first year being kind of angry, he still went through the motions of being a father to our girls and if I needed something, he might have still been resentful, but he helped out. He was fair in our mediation negotiations and approached the entire thing from the vantage point of "How do both of us get as much as we need without screwing each other and the girls?"

I recognized that behavior as one of caring and love.

I would say that about a normal person, but what I have come to learn about my H, is that everything comes back to him. Either because it made someone else like him, which props up his self worth (since remember, he has none inside), or because he could tell himself he was a good person. I am not just H bashing here. It really is true. That's why he would get so angry with me. He would do these little things (like run out and get me salad dressing when noodles forgot to pack it in the to go bag) and then he would be angry because he didn't get what he wanted out of me. (Usually that was sex.) He wasn't doing them just to be nice. He was doing them to get me to do something for him. We used to have season tickets to the Nuggets, Broncos and Rockies. And from time to time we would have tickets we weren't going to use. I always wanted to give them to the Make-A-Wish Foundation or CHC or something. He wanted to give them to friends. Because if he gave them to friends, they would then like him and think he was a cool guy. Having some anonymous kid from MAW get the tickets didn't do anything for him.

So if he is fair during the mediation, or if he agrees to switch nights with the kids with me, or whatever, I don't even trust that it's out of love for anyone but himself.

I guess he has a long time to prove me wrong.

I truly gave him the benefit of the doubt (much more than I should have) for so long . . . and he just keeps proving he doesn't deserve it.

Put me squarely in the camp of actions speak louder than words.

He is having some sort of A while we are still married. 'Nuff said.

In fairness, I will acknowledge that on Friday night, when we all went to the Nuggets game, he did do a nice thing. I had changed my coat and left all my cash in the pocket of the other coat. So when I got there, I had no cash for parking. H was walking over, so he stopped at an ATM for cash, and then hopped in the car with us to park. Still. I don't believe anymore that he does it for anything other than his own benefit.

If you haven't figured this out by now, I am a firm believer in managing "how I feel" and taking control of how I do that. Not out of punishment or fear, but out of respect for myself.

That is where I want to be. That's why I think I am going to file for legal S. Because I think that filing for D is just me trying to make a power move. And doing nothing is just trying to hope that he sees how "nice" I am, and gives me the opportunity to get screwed.

S is right in the middle. It fulfills my need to protect the partnership asset, and to have some financials and parenting time set up, without having to feel the moral (?) discomfort of filing for D.

So what is it you want to accomplish? If it is to move on for YOUR Sake, so be it.

It's really just to make sure that H doesn't get away with giving away a valuable marital asset.

So be ready for your h to "feel freed" ...at first....

Oh, he seems to feel quite free already . . .

25, you said that your H dated, and so did you. How do you distinguish that from him (or you) having an OP? Is it because of the timing? He didn't do it until you were legally S?

I just don't believe you will be single long IF YOU do not wish to be. So don't let fear of being alone (which we all have!!) stop you from anything.

Who saw Frozen? When Kristoff is lying on the ground, his sled in flames 100 feet below, having almost been eaten by wolves and then nearly falling off a cliff, and he says, "this has ruined me for helping anyone ever again"? That's how I feel about dating right now. Ugh. I imagine (hope) that I will change my mind, but I've gotta say, my standards are WAY high. I will have so little room for tolerating BS, I can tell you that.

Plus, I sense you are a babe and a half, so there's that...

Ha. I only said I'm not ugly is all. Look, I am 5'3", hot much of a babe can I be? Maybe after I get a few Botox injections in my laugh lines.

Thanks for the confidence, though. I guess I talk a good talk. LOL.

[labug]

I'm not really waiting for the other shoe to drop - I feel like it has already dropped. H has made his intentions clear. So the only issue now is whether I file or wait for him to file.

He hasn't filed, the other shoe hasn't dropped. Doing it yourself takes away that uncertainty and gives you the control. In no way am I saying don't file, just think about it, make sure it is what you want.

It's so funny, if you guys knew me before this whole divorce crap took over, you would be stunned at what a mess I am now. I don't think I have ever in my life made a decision based on what someone else thought I should do. Until the past four months. Anyone who knows me well would have laughed to know that a lawyer told me to get a backbone yesterday.

I wouldn't be stunned, we've all been there.

Is facing the truth about my H and my M, and filing for D so I can make sure that this is done the right way, and I get what I deserve, courageous like I think it is? Or is it bitchy and controlling and vengeful like H would have me think? (And would he be right??)

Did your H say that? About what? You haven't filed yet. You have a very strong judge in your head, where does that come from?

The first time I met H's Dad, we all went to lunch together. Now mind you, I am not socially inept. I get along with most people and really don't have any enemies. Most people like me and I make friends easily. Well, we had a nice lunch, and after lunch, H and his Dad went to play golf. When H got home, he informed me that his Dad said (in a negative way) that I "have strong likes and dislikes." Huh? I don't even know what that means. I guess because I have a personality and opinions - H's Dad also does not like H's SIL, because she is smart and has opinions.

I don't see the negative in that statement.

Anyway. My H didn't say, "oh, screw him, who cares what he thinks?" (or better yet, keep what his Dad said to himself.) He said, "well, it's true, you know."

Again, I don't see the negative. It's good to have likes and dislikes as long as you don't expect everyone to have the same. You're a strong, intelligent, accomplished woman, it's OK if YOU think "Screw him, who cares what he thinks."

I mention that because it's just the way that H has judged the fact that I am strong and self confident and not afraid of conflict. He views that as me being a "pain in the ass" or "having strong likes and dislikes" or "always insisting on getting my way" or whatever it is. See, because H is a chameleon and a pleaser and he views his inability to make hard decisions (or even easy ones) as being "flexible," which is what he thinks all people should be.

Could a little bit of both be true? I ask because this sounds a lot like me in the early days of my situation. Been there, done that.

I don't think my C is pushing me into anything. I mentioned to her that I might try to slow things down with the D process, and she thought that it might be better for me to not do that. But I don't think I would let her opinions sway me.

Good.

The lawyer, yes. I think that she has a very good point about H's partnership interest. If I fail to file because I am trying to be some "nice person" or because I am too fearful of what might happen (H will get pissed, things will be hard financially, etc.), and then H files AND dumps his partnership interest, THAT I will regret. I can tell you that for sure.

I don't know anything about any of that, totally our of my frame of reference. I just know not to let other people make my decisions for me. I think it's in your best interests to not make fear-based decisions.

There is a fine line, IMO, between standing for your M, and being an idiot. I feel like I am now getting into idiot territory.

I'm not saying continue to stand for your marriage, if you're done, you're done. Just slow down and make the best possible decisions for you.

Who decides if it's idiot territory? Again, there's that judge.

You only have to answer to you.

[labug]

And remember, I'm on your side.

[melissag]

Argh. Just got about 3/4 of the way through a long post and my laptop lost contact with the mouse. Take 2.

Thanks, labug. I know you are on my side. I actually like to have my way of thinking challenged, and I think it's important to consider the tough questions. So thank you.

He hasn't filed, the other shoe hasn't dropped. Doing it yourself takes away that uncertainty and gives you the control. In no way am I saying don't file, just think about it, make sure it is what you want.

True. He hasn't filed. Yet. I have spent quite a bit of time over the past day thinking about this and I know I would not be filing anything if not for the financial issue. So I am pretty comfortable I am not searching for some (false) sense of control. Also, if I do file it will likely be for S, which won't bring any more certainty to our M status; but will bring certainty with the parenting time and financials, which I do think will be good for me.

About H's Dad's statement. I can't recall the exact conversation, but it was couched as an insult, or that's the way H phrased it. It may have been something like, "my Dad doesn't like SIL either." My H made sure I knew throughout our entire R, that his Dad did not like me. It was a source of great discomfort for me, especially since H constantly told me how little he respected or liked his father, yet he didn't ever seem to defend me to him.

A few months ago, I had the opportunity to have breakfast with H's Dad and SMIL, without H there. I went into it with an open mind and it really was lovely. I wondered whether I was seeing them through H's eyes the whole time instead of giving them a chance.

Again, I don't see the negative. It's good to have likes and dislikes as long as you don't expect everyone to have the same. You're a strong, intelligent, accomplished woman, it's OK if YOU think "Screw him, who cares what he thinks."

I guess I felt that, since H's Dad was saying it (according to H) in a negative way, and my H agreed with him, my H thought that it was negative too. It came across to me as an insult to my personality.

Sometimes I wonder whether H and I just completely misunderstood each other.

Could a little bit of both be true? I ask because this sounds a lot like me in the early days of my situation. Been there, done that.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here.

I'm not saying continue to stand for your marriage, if you're done, you're done. Just slow down and make the best possible decisions for you.

There really is no decision I am going to feel 100% comfortable with right now. It's kind of like, do you want to do chemo or radiation? Walk on hot coals or sleep on a bed of nails? There aren't any good options for me here. Only the least crappy. And it's hard to tell what that is.

[melissag]

Too quick on the trigger.

I don't know if I am done. I mean, in some dream world, my H figures everything out and is suddenly willing to work on our M, and we live happily ever after. But that's just not reality. He's going in the exact opposite direction of where he would need to go for that to happen.

So yeah, I guess in light of that, and where he is now, I am done. I won't say I am locking the door and throwing away the key, but I am definitely slamming the door in his lying, self centered face, and it's going to take more than a polite knock for him to come back in.

Who decides if it's idiot territory? Again, there's that judge.

I do. And I feel like an idiot.

At first, even though everyone else thought I should tell to F off just because he left, I didn't feel like an idiot. I felt like I was being loving and compassionate and really trying to do my part to work toward a better M. But when we are at the point now where he's just straight up insulting me to my face, spending hours looking for other women (and most likely taking them out), AND now carrying on some sort of inappropriate relationship with another woman (married, to boot), I think that to sit around hoping he comes back is just idiotic and I feel like I have too much self respect for that.

Back to the tough question:

Did your H say that? About what? You haven't filed yet. You have a very strong judge in your head, where does that come from?

You are right. I am just preparing myself for H to somehow villainize me. I am so used to it by now - that was the dynamic of our R forever. He was the poor victim (martyr, even) and I the villain. I know what you are thinking, and you are right. I can't react to things that haven't happened yet, and I am just creating unnecessary resentment by assuming things that may or may not be true.

Where does that judge come from? I'm not sure. Need to mull that one.

[Georgiabelle]

Hi Melissa,

I'm just catching up on your thread. It seems you have a lot to consider and it is difficult. A good friend of mine stood for almost 2 years. You have to do what feels best for you, and I understand the confusion associated with "I don't think he would do this but I also didn't believe he would do x." The insanity can make a girl's skinny jeans baggy:)

As my friend said yesterday, stay on topic and you will get where you need to go.

[melissag]

I believe it was 25 who said, when making your decisions think bout them I regards of what's best for your children.

It's great advice. I intend to follow it.

You are very fearful of how your H will " see" you or villianize you or what he will think.

You are right. I am. I find that I still jump to his defense, give him the benefit of the doubt (most of the time) and care about what he thinks of me. It's stupid. I'm reading Codependent No More, and I suspect this is the issue.

I am trying to separate that stuff from the decisions I need to make - but it's hard.

You need to be able to clearly see you are not the villain here.

I know. I just keep letting myself believe the crap my H led me to believe about myself. I feel like he has a skewed perspective of things a lot of the time, but he seems so sure of himself when he's telling me that I'm the messed up one, that I start to wonder.

I have to keep reminding myself what Betsey said about having ten character witnesses who say nice things about me, and then my H . . . .

And he is not insulting you to your face.

I was referring to him saying things like, "I'm the happiest I have ever been since I moved out." I guess it's really over email, because he doesn't have the balls to say it to my face, but still, it's a straight up insult.

He's making an ass out of himself.

That I agree with.

Thanks for the pep talk, Gineen. I really needed it. I don't know why I am being such a wussy right now. I hate it.

[melissag]

Thanks, GB, for visiting my thread and for your wisdom.

It is really hard suddenly not knowing who my H is or what he is capable of doing. I think I just need to operate as though I can trust him with nothing. It makes me sad, but it's the only way to protect myself.

What is Oprah's (or Maya Angelou's) saying . . .

When people show you who they are, believe them.

[melissag]

I still don't feel 100% sure of what I want to do. I am not sure I ever will. I am beginning to think of this like the trip I went on without H, or the Super Bowl party. I wasn't sure about those things either, but I knew I needed to do them. And when I did, it helped me to move forward. The truth is, none of this is what I expected, so I will probably have to push through a lot of things I am not completely comfortable with in the coming months and years.

I was looking at the cell bill again just out of curiosity, and it turns out my H was texting the OW when I was at his place watching the AFC Championship with him and my kids, and throughout the 2 hour long power struggle with my S7. It made me feel like punching him. He sees the kids two nights a week, and there are nights he has them where he is texting with her for hours.

I think I know enough, and I will stop looking at H's texting activity. At this point I think I am just looking for things to be extra outraged about, and that's not helping anyone.

I have a call set up with my L today, and I think I just need to pull the trigger. Though I am tempted in a way to file for D, I think that is coming from a place of pride, so I think it will be S.