melissag XII - must. detach.

[25yearsmlc]

TRUE STORY ---to consider.

8 years ago, the "PTA Mom" of the neighborhood,

who was always high strung & hyper, and did everything for the kids in the class, just dropped out of sight. When she reemerged she was a lot LESS hyper but had made some startling choices.

Her d was bff of our youngest, then 10. PTA Mom had gone off the deep end in a true "MLC" (and I rarely use that term in such an accurate way).

Yes, she has horrible unresolved childhood issues, & engages in too much drinking, has poor communication skills, etc. Her h was 20 years older than she was, too, and she turned 40 and poof! There she goes!

But here are the things that really struck me, b/c this is a MOTHER we are discussing, and she does love her kids. I can vouch for that.

She left the home and rented a room for awhile and every single morning came over to the home to make breakfast and then came over to make dinner and help with homework, for months. Then she moved in with a OM and HIS kids...
To my knowledge she never has seen anything wrong with any of her choices. She even brought the OM to the FAMILY home to pick her up sometimes...in front of the h and kids.

Despite this, They have reconciled a few times and she moves back out and in, and I'm not sure of their present status, but I believe it's "piecing".

But here is what she said/heard at various times that seemed to make her wake up some.

I asked her how she was doing. She vaguely mentioned OM as if he was a great guy everyone would like but was also of the mind that no one "knew" of OM b/c she had not openly called him her BF. (Her kids did NOT like him at all. He was an unemployed loser from all accounts).

So I asked her about what happens when her h dates and brings his OW to the home where the kids are....

With God as my witness, she looked completely shocked by the CONCEPT of his dating AND introducing OW to THEIR children. OR going into HER house.

She said to me, as if she was in a fugue state (literally), "you think that COULD happen?? You think OW could come in MY house and be with MY kids??"

I said, "well yes I do. I mean, You are openly dating & introducing the kids to OM (#2 OM I think). Isn't it a bit hypocritical to assume HE won't?"

She PAUSED to consider this, b/c folks, I do not think she ever had thought of this before b/c it sure appeared to stump her. She was quiet for maybe 20 seconds. Then she said "I GUESS I can see what you are saying..." and wandered off.

It was a real moment for me to ponder what just transpired...

Melissa, who knows what they are thinking?

"PTA mom" moved out, but had no plans or details worked out. I believe it had never crossed her mind that her h could do what SHE was doing....she seemed to have Just thought by dating, "everyone" would be happy FOR HER, and as long as she showed up for her kids, what's the harm? And nothing else would change for HER b/c they'd just wait for her every morning, and dinner, etc...??

My amazement was mostly at her inability to imagine HIM, acting like she does.
How can she not have foreseen this?

Not really any awareness of how HER behavior appears to others...or how the other shoe feels, etc.

(And maybe I'm a bit amazed at the possibility of her not knowing what "hypocritical" meant?? She seemed so uncertain...)

Anyhow, just wanted to share that b/c it does happen where you meet a WAS who is just so, 'babe in the woods' clueless about the wreckage THEY are creating with their meanderings.
I wanted to slap some sense in her but she truly seemed...lost and bewildered. When I contemplate her childhood trauma and then how young she married, I can see why she has so few coping tools. The tragedy is compounded b/c the tools exist if we but avail ourselves of them.

Sad for all.

But a reminder that some WASs are in deep spiritual/psychological trouble.

[Underdog]

BTW, in case you and Bug and 25 are not reading between the lines, I am not advocating one way or another here. I tell you my story about the Memorandum because we both needed to operate as if we were legally separated without going that far. I realize it doesn't work for everyone. But I was absolutely resolute on giving my M every shot I could. It was the only way I could look myself in the mirror every morning.

So like 25 said, what is the harm in thinking this through. Now if there is the chance that you don't post everything your H says, then this probably changes things. I'm not speaking about him having affairs, but I'm addressing the looming e-mail he wrote to you. Do you actually know what he means by not dragging this out?

And I will also throw in my own $.02 on filing with an OP. I didn't have that. My XH's OW was Jack Daniels and beer chasers. But had he moved out and took up with OW, I probably would have filed too. Again, I wouldn't have wanted him to spend money I believed were rightfully the kids going somewhere else without having protection for them and myself. I knew he wasn't with an OP because his moving out triggered an NSA investigation on him for his clearances, and had access to the findings. But you don't know that.

Again, I say that if you take care of your own needs and look out for the interest of your children, you are creating healthy boundaries for you and your family. Define what those steps are and how you want to live your life. And if you don't like it, tweak it until you do.

Make sense?

I'm certainly not here as the moral police. That's not my job, nor do I want that job. My BFF walked out on her long term BF when she found out he was cheating. It wasn't that she couldn't forgive him. It was because she didn't like the person she was becoming because of it, and that was HER deal breaker. So... you might want to explore that angle too.

[Underdog]

25--

My amazement was mostly at her inability to imagine HIM, acting like she does.
How can she not have foreseen this?

This is exactly what I meant when I said that most people do the best job they can; but some people are just clearly lacking the skills of discernment and logic. Hell, let's just call a spade a spade... some people are just not taught how to think things through to consequences. PTA mom sounds like the very image of someone who just lacked that ability to think it through?

[melissag]

I think your anxiety over the unknown is taking over. Please be aware of that and try not to make decisions based on that. Sometimes we want to control things and get on with it so we don't have to wait for that other shoe to drop. Slow down and be careful. I know you have a lot of fears, money being one but you have to do what's right for you, no regrets.

So don't let his actions or your L or your C push you into doing something you're not ready for. They have pieces of your best interests at heart, that don't have all of it. That's yours. From you posts it seems like you sometimes make decisions based on what you think others think you "should" do.

I'm not really waiting for the other shoe to drop - I feel like it has already dropped. H has made his intentions clear. So the only issue now is whether I file or wait for him to file.

It's so funny, if you guys knew me before this whole divorce crap took over, you would be stunned at what a mess I am now. I don't think I have ever in my life made a decision based on what someone else thought I should do. Until the past four months. Anyone who knows me well would have laughed to know that a lawyer told me to get a backbone yesterday.

This whole thing with H has really f-ed me up. I don't feel confident about my own choices anymore. I don't feel confident about my personality anymore, because H said it was so defective in so many ways. And I guess I am kind of buying it. And I have done so much work on myself, and I do feel more like myself than I have in a long long time, but I still have that awful nagging feeling sometimes that my H is right and I suck. And then I don't trust myself.

Is facing the truth about my H and my M, and filing for D so I can make sure that this is done the right way, and I get what I deserve, courageous like I think it is? Or is it bitchy and controlling and vengeful like H would have me think? (And would he be right??)

The first time I met H's Dad, we all went to lunch together. Now mind you, I am not socially inept. I get along with most people and really don't have any enemies. Most people like me and I make friends easily. Well, we had a nice lunch, and after lunch, H and his Dad went to play golf. When H got home, he informed me that his Dad said (in a negative way) that I "have strong likes and dislikes." Huh? I don't even know what that means. I guess because I have a personality and opinions - H's Dad also does not like H's SIL, because she is smart and has opinions.

Anyway. My H didn't say, "oh, screw him, who cares what he thinks?" (or better yet, keep what his Dad said to himself.) He said, "well, it's true, you know."

I mention that because it's just the way that H has judged the fact that I am strong and self confident and not afraid of conflict. He views that as me being a "pain in the ass" or "having strong likes and dislikes" or "always insisting on getting my way" or whatever it is. See, because H is a chameleon and a pleaser and he views his inability to make hard decisions (or even easy ones) as being "flexible," which is what he thinks all people should be.

And so, truthfully, what is keeping me from filing are two things:

(1) The inability to accept that this person is really my H, and my dreams for our M are really gone; and

(2) What my H will think of me if I file.

Then there is also (3) the financial fears, but those will come to pass or not regardless of who files.

I don't think my C is pushing me into anything. I mentioned to her that I might try to slow things down with the D process, and she thought that it might be better for me to not do that. But I don't think I would let her opinions sway me.

The lawyer, yes. I think that she has a very good point about H's partnership interest. If I fail to file because I am trying to be some "nice person" or because I am too fearful of what might happen (H will get pissed, things will be hard financially, etc.), and then H files AND dumps his partnership interest, THAT I will regret. I can tell you that for sure.

There is a fine line, IMO, between standing for your M, and being an idiot. I feel like I am now getting into idiot territory.

[melissag]

25--
This is exactly what I meant when I said that most people do the best job they can; but some people are just clearly lacking the skills of discernment and logic. Hell, let's just call a spade a spade... some people are just not taught how to think things through to consequences. PTA mom sounds like the very image of someone who just lacked that ability to think it through?

This is totally my H . . . he never thinks through things, and it's because he doesn't want to. He has told me many times that he prefers to just live his life not worrying about anything, and just take it as it comes. (Since he moved out, he has gone ahead and just written checks for things without telling me or keeping track - he doesn't even know the password to look at our account online.) Which is all fine and good for him. The problem comes in when there are other people counting on him.

Illustration: when D9 was a baby, he would just grab the diaper bag (or maybe not even do that) when taking her somewhere. He never checked to see if there were diapers or wipes or whatever in there. So we would be somewhere, and we would have no pacifier and D9 would scream. Or, as happened once, I removed her poopy diaper and then found there were no clean diapers in the bag. (Granted, this is not the end of the world, but isn't life a little easier without dealing with baby crises like these?) So I suggested we make a little list to make it easier, and he could just peek in the bag when he grabbed it and make sure we had what we needed. He said no. He doesn't want to check a list.

Anyway, all this to say that my H is exactly like this, but I am not sure that he will see any of the consequences (if they come to pass) as bad.

So you see why I am not real optimistic about any sort of R . . .

Though, as a side note, he did tell me a couple months ago, that he wanted to be friends and chat and stuff, but certainly not about me dating anyone. ha.

[melissag]

The clarity an affair discovery provides, to ME, is when there were fewer signs of trouble in the marriage, and the explanation for the separation becomes more apparent. I think it tends to lessen our questioning. So, yay for that.

As long as it does not end our personal efforts at becoming better partners and parents, then the clarity is advantageous.

Hmm. I guess in this case, I don't really view it as the reason for the S. I think that my H was unhappy with our M, and I think that while he didn't have an actual person waiting in the wings (remember, this thing right now started at christmas), he had an imaginary OW. He needed to get out and have someone who would stroke his ego, because he wasn't getting enough of that from me.

So maybe it does or doesn't show that he is "done," per se. But what it shows me is that my H is not someone I want to be with. The H he was, or I thought he was (and I am still not sure whether there is a distinction there) is who I want. But he is showing me, little by little, that he is now definitely not the H I want.

So maybe it's more that I am done.

[melissag]

That's not punishment, friend. That's creating and enforcing a boundary.

Yes. It's about time I created some boundaries, I think. I have been too afraid. And being afraid has not only hurt me because I haven't set the boundaries, but because then I disrespect myself for being afraid and not setting the boundaries.

If my XH and I are meant to be together, then nothing will stand in our way of doing just that. No D decree is going to prevent that.

That is something that plays into my decision about whether to file. If I file, it doesn't mean that we can never R. It just means that right now, our M is over. And I have no interest in Ring with the person he is right now.

In some ways, I think of D as a piece of paper. The piece of paper that says we are M didn't stop my H from leaving. So why would a D piece of paper stop him from returning, if that is what was meant to be? (And if it's because he has too much pride, then do I really want to be with him anyway?)

I know you think I'm crazy for being friends with Mr. Wonderful.

No. I don't. My H and I were best friends for several years before we started dating (though most of that time he was begging me to date him - ironic, huh?), and I am really sad about losing his friendship. I just feel right now, like he is disrespecting me so much that I can't see a way to a friendship with him. I do hope that at some point, I can be where you are. Happy with myself, and compassionate for him, and able to appreciate the things I could get from a friendship with him, without being disappointed by expecting too much.

That just seems a long way off right now. Was there a period where you and your H were having limited contact, or not friends? Or were you friends throughout?

I don't think my H is a bad person. But honestly, I don't think I know him. Hell, even he has acknowledged that he doesn't know him.

So I guess the jury is out. At some point, when I am happy on my own and not being jerked around emotionally by his every move, I will be able to look at him fresh and see who he is and what he is like.

But his actions show that he values me as a person and loves me as such.

How did you get there? Was this after you were D for a while?

My H says he still loves me and cares about me, but honestly, the way I feel around him is like a piece of garbage. I think he's full of it.

(Now ask me, deep down, do I love him like crazy? YES. But I am just not willing to put myself out there for him anymore, even as a friend, because all he does is tear me down.)

[melissag]

Sorry for the diarrhea of the keyboard today. For anyone who is following along, you must really not have much to do today at work.

So like 25 said, what is the harm in thinking this through. Now if there is the chance that you don't post everything your H says, then this probably changes things. I'm not speaking about him having affairs, but I'm addressing the looming e-mail he wrote to you. Do you actually know what he means by not dragging this out?

The harm is that he may give up his partnership interest, which will cost me a LOT of money. Like in the six figures.

Now, if I file, and he gives up his interest, that will be considered dissipation of marital assets, and he, rather than I, will be the one who gets screwed.

(Not that I want him to get screwed, that's his own issue if he wants to screw himself, but I want to make sure I don't get screwed.)

I have posted just about everything my H has said on this matter. He has said at least three times that he wants to get on with it, and doesn't want to drag it out. He doesn't want to be married anymore. And, let's remember, he said that he "need[s] to make decisions about [his] life and career that are impacted by these discussions," so he wants me to hurry up with my response.

I am not sure there is any way to reasonably interpret that other than that he wants to get divorced sooner rather than later.

[melissag]

OK just one more, then I will shut up for a while.

Melissa, Right now two women, Labug and I, are telling you to just slow down a bit. We have been around here a long time and we both are reconciled.

I recognize that. And I am grateful to have the benefit of your advice and wisdom. The only thing keeping me from slowing down is this financial matter. What I wonder is whether I can file for D, and then not pursue it, but let H pursue it if he wants to.

Maybe this is just the LBS in me talking, but I just feel like this is over with a capital O. My H left, and has shown no interest in R. Plenty of interest in being my friend and in ML with me, sure. But not because he cares about me or loves me. Because it makes him feel good about himself. Most of what he said that was even remotely positive in the sitch has turned out to be a lie. And now he is not only scouring match.com to find a replacement, but is apparently having some sort of R with another woman. (The fact that she is married is just the icing on the cake, really.) He has said very clearly he has zero interest in being married to me now or ever. And he has said clearly that he wants to move forward with D. (Though he calls it "this thing.")

So, it certainly does not seem to me like there is any chance that he will want to R in the near future. And by near future, I mean, before he files, since that's what he wants to do.

AND, unless he changes quite a lot, I have no interest in R with him.

Am I too deep in the muck to see what you both see? What am I missing?

[3boymom]

M - I see so many similarities between your H and mine, with the only real difference being that your H waited until after S to get an OW. Your H has probably chosen this OW because she is attached (married with child) and he can have fun without any expectations and obligations. You already know the story about my H's OW. Our Hs do not want a "normal" woman in their late 20s/early 30s that are ready to marry and start a family. They are living in the moment and in this lovely fantasy land. As 25 pointed out, these A do not last forever. People cannot live in a fantasy land forever.

My guess is that your H will never willingly disclose his A to you or anyone else in "real life". He may tell a few friends that will enable this behavior. But my guess is that no one that was a part of your life together will find out. Because they will call him out on his poor decision. And that would bruise his ego. You have mentioned that your H is very concerned about his ego and his image. I am sure that he will want to keep his "family man" image going for as long as possible. My H would DIE if anyone knew about his A. I think that is why he wound up with the current OW. Seriously, no one would believe that he would have an A with her because her life is a mess.

He probably wont tell anyone about the A either because one of the best parts of the A is the secrecy. I know that my H was getting a high off of sneaking around. When it is no longer a secret and a R in the open, expectations and obligations are immediately attached. Your H (and mine) does not like expectations and obligations.

This really explains his sudden change in direction between Thanksgiving and New Year. Your H is enamored right now and is acting like a complete alien. However, that does not mean that your H, the H that you married, will never return. All you know is that right now, you don't want to be with the current version H. And that is ok.

My guess is that your H is not fully thinking through his plan. I am sure that part of his motivation for proceeding with the D is because he thinks that it will make him less guilty about the OW. We all know that there will be consequences of your H's decision that he has not even thought about yet, beginning with having to tell your kids and see their responses. My hope is that one day he will wake up and see the destruction that he has caused and take ownership for it. My H is not there yet, although I can see that he is not as blind as he once was.

And my guess is that your H has NEVER thought about the idea of you being with OM. Right now, he is fully consumed by his own life. He was unhappy and is focused on becoming happy. He probably thinks that you will be sad and stuck and will not move on.

I vividly remember the moment when I realized that my H had not fully thought through our situation. He was telling me that if we got a D, he would tell his new GF/W that he was going to come to my house once a week for dinner with myself and the kids. H said that he would only marry someone that would be ok with that situation and that he hoped that I would be ok with that situation. I told him that (1) it would be hard to find a new W that would be ok with that situation; (2) I would not be ok with that situation and (3) what if my new H would not be ok with that situation. My H was stunned. He seriously could not comprehend the idea that I would remarry. Although he had thought about this "perfect best of both worlds scenario" he never thought about what may happen with me. He never considered the possibility that I would move on and would not be sitting around waiting for his family dinner once a week.

This is totally my H . . . he never thinks through things, and it's because he doesn't want to. He has told me many times that he prefers to just live his life not worrying about anything, and just take it as it comes. (Since he moved out, he has gone ahead and just written checks for things without telling me or keeping track - he doesn't even know the password to look at our account online.) Which is all fine and good for him. The problem comes in when there are other people counting on him.

Illustration: when D9 was a baby, he would just grab the diaper bag (or maybe not even do that) when taking her somewhere. He never checked to see if there were diapers or wipes or whatever in there. So we would be somewhere, and we would have no pacifier and D9 would scream. Or, as happened once, I removed her poopy diaper and then found there were no clean diapers in the bag. (Granted, this is not the end of the world, but isn't life a little easier without dealing with baby crises like these?) So I suggested we make a little list to make it easier, and he could just peek in the bag when he grabbed it and make sure we had what we needed. He said no. He doesn't want to check a list.

At least your H would bring the diaper bag. My H still does not bring one when he takes the kids, including S1. At least I no longer have to deal with the consequences. I have no idea how our Hs have been able to succeed in their careers.

M - You are handling this so well. I really believe that we are meant to find out certain information at specific times to help us with our decisions and to keep us moving forward on our journey.