Don't Break Character

[ForeverYoung]

2 hour of online time has now been replaced by 3 hour make-out sessions. I don't remember ever being like this with anyone ever. Sorry FY. Your time is coming buddy.

Honest and for true? And H is ok with this?

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Regarding LBB: Do you encourage, or have you considered encouraging H to hang out with LBB? It very well could turn out to be a positive thing for all four of you.

I think back to when W and I first met. I had a small group of friends who I hung out with as did she. As W and I "Became One", we drifted away from our single friends. Eventually, we never seen or talked with them at all. My W and I were closest buddies, doing EVERYTHING together, and hardly ever did things with others on our own.

This led to STAGNATION.

I think it is most important both spouses bring some outside interests/friends into the relationship. This is why I can't cheer my W on enough when she goes out to do stuff, and have been doing more myself.

[Raine]

Respectfully, I disagree Raine. You have been "seasoned" a bit more. You're wiser. You're more relaxed and, well, you are more yourself. More authentic.

And that's when real relationships are made. When everyone involved is real.

I agree. I have been seasoned more, but I don't agree that I wasn't happy and secure before. I was pretty darn great before. But yes, this has made me a better person, when I know I was love, admired, respected by everyone before. I believe that even if I hadn't changed, H would still want who I was then, because he said he never could quit me. He couldn't quit the old me before he even knew this new me. I think who I was before got me through the dark periods pretty fast. I look at friends of mine who have gone through D and As and they are still in turmoil after 2.5 years. Still in that place I spent a month of my life. That deep, dark abyss. I know I've always been strong. I don't think I could have gotten where I am in life otherwise, not at my age. I feel like I was always real before. Now, now I'm not real. Now I'm still holding back the "real" for the time that the "real" doesn't live in anger.

You know the thing I'm struggling with is I felt like things were addressed. I felt like we communicated. We spent a lot of time together, we dated, did things with other adults, lots of family time. I thought we were doing everything we should be doing. We were always doing so much more than other couples. I felt we were so much closer than other couples.

You know, Raine, I am sure you had a great marriage before. I think maybe when we look back at stuff, sometimes, we may not see it exactly as we did when we were in it. I say that because you wrote:

I think that stagnation is what hurt us so much before.

Now thats not to say it wasnt an amazing marriage. Just that there may have been some stuff that needed tending. No marriage is perfect. They all need to be tended to and should always be seen as a living thing.

This is part of the cycle I'm struggling with. I go back and forth. I see the stagnation, but then I see the justification for it. We were both moving very fast career wise. I was juggling that with young kids, who I will never put in daycare. I can see all that and see how we weren't not focusing on the marriage.

But then I look and say, "Hold on there. That's not true!" We went out together once a week. We had people over at the house at least once a week. We did family vacations. We went to church. We went shopping together, ran errands together. I did so many nice, thoughtful things for him. He did nice, thoughtful things for me. If we weren't working, we were together. We have lots of friends. Everyone wanted to hang out with us. We went to bed together. We shared so many common interests. We would watch tv together and a 20 minute show would take us an hour to get through, because we had to pause it to talk about it. And I look at my other friends with kids and think, we were doing a heck of a lot more than they were. We were not living separate lives with separate friends like they are.

Yes, I can see the negatives. I can see when I got frustrated with him. I can see my resentment for my perception of his lack of appreciation. I can see me focusing on major projects where I wouldn't go to bed until 4 am. And I'm thinking, I was doing this for "us." And now I'm thinking, he was probably in our bed, waiting for me to come to bed, talking to one of them...

So it's hard. I see our relationship then being way better than others, but, it wasn't good enough. It would have been good enough for the majority, but it wasn't good enough for us, to prevent this. And I know, CRISIS, and I know it would have happened to whoever he married, but I still struggle with that.

And this "struggle," what's playing out in my mind right now, is new to me. It's taking me back before my MLC discovery, my "a ha" moments. I'm back to trying to reconcile where it all went wrong. And despite the crisis blame target, I think that's a good thing. Just as he is trying to reconcile in himself how he could have done what he did to me and the family, I'm trying to reconcile it all too.

I trust that it was crisis and depression. I don't trust what he tells me all the time, because he's not truthful about the past. And because I don't trust what he says, I don't trust that the crisis is just a one and done.

Yes, I'm in it. I think I tend to sound negative on here, cause I lay it all out there. But I am very happy and positive. Honestly if another BD ever happened again, I would be more shocked now than I was the first time. No, I don't think he is going anywhere or thinking of anyone but me.

FY, I'm quite positive about LBB and sympathetic. H is and has been quite negative about LBB for a very long time. We have hung out a heck of a lot with LBB and crew. I deserve gold medals for the amount of time I've spent with that group. But H is drifting back towards old friends, more mature friends, more relatable. I don't discourage and have been supportive. H has reached out to LBB, who hasn't responded. I don't think neither H or I are up for Jr High games of pouting and silent treatments. I have embraced his friends and gone out of my way to include them and invite them. His friends end up becoming our friends most of the time. We never did become isolated from others in our R. We always had people wanting to hang out with us. It was making sure we had time just the two of us, without other couples, that was more difficult to find.

[Raine]

LOL FY! I totally misread your comment of "Honest and for true? And H is ok with this?"

TBH, I bet H would be....

[uRworthy]

Now I'm not real. Now I'm still holding back the "real" for the time that the "real" doesn't live in anger.

Ok, my friend, you know I always keep it real with you. It is time to think about when and how you are going to deal with that anger, right? Otherwise, you cannot fully move forward. And if you dont deal with it, that's not a great place to be in for long, nor is it a place in which your marriage can continue to thrive. I had told you that it was important for both of you to come at that from a place of strength and that you needed to be on steady ground. I still believe that.

I know there are still triggers. So, I dont think you are where you need to be to deal with it yet. But, what do you need to see and feel in order to think about getting there?

It would have been good enough for the majority, but it wasn't good enough for us, to prevent this. And I know, CRISIS, and I know it would have happened to whoever he married, but I still struggle with that.

If you are saying your marriage was very strong and you both did what you needed to in order for it to be, why, then, is it so hard for you to see that it was a crisis?

I think, my friend, knowing you as I do, that you want to find the magic point of what caused this. But I think you may be looking in the wrong place. It all went wrong a long time ago for your h. Years of not dealing with stuff that needed dealing with, until it all came to a head.

My fear is that you are looking at the why, which I understand, but I know you need to deal with the what. As in what happened during the crisis and how are you going to reconcile that.

I trust that it was crisis and depression. I don't trust what he tells me all the time, because he's not truthful about the past. And because I don't trust what he says, I don't trust that the crisis is just a one and done.

Not exactly sure what you mean by that. ^^^ Care to elaborate?

[Raine]

Ok, my friend, you know I always keep it real with you. It is time to think about when and how you are going to deal with that anger, right?

Yes, and I love you for that The dealing with it is happening. It was fully seeing where the anger is coming from, and it is coming from that place of not being real. Of having that taboo zone. Of having the triggers, but not being able to talk about it, because he isn't always forthcoming, and I can tell. I can tell when he holds things back or isn't honest. So there are open doors and wounds that are just in limbo, waiting for him to feel safe, secure, or rather for him to feel that I'm capable of hearing things without it affecting me, making me upset or hurt.

But, that is starting to change. This is a long update, but it gets there...

He started reading Men in Midlife Crisis. We haven't talked much about it, other than he likes that the guy is a pastor but open about it and admitting of it.

The last few nights he has really been opening up. When we start to talk about things, he always says things that he is here. This is where he wants to be. He is so happy. He feel so much love for me. Constant reassurance. And I know that. It isn't about that. This isn't because I'm worried he is going to leave or he isn't happy. I really feel that he is happy and all he wants is me.

During these talks it because very clear that I was always his first choice, his only choice. He felt he did want to be back home, weeks after separating, but that he felt it wasn't an option, so he wouldn't think about it or talk about it. He felt like he had destroyed it all and any possible chance he had of fixing us. He was doing whatever he could to just cope. He never saw a lawyer. Never looked anything up related to D.

He talked about our Anniversary being a horrible day for him. He couldn't remember if he did anything other than stay in his room. He said he was so down and depressed. He felt like that day was a major catalysis for him spiraling down. He felt he had lost everything that mattered. This was one of the periods when he started becoming really clingy with me, showing up unexpected. This was the period of time when I was worried he was suicidal. This was also when OW1 laid down an ultimatum that he broke up with her over, but she of course came crawling back. This is also the time he "couldn't" find a place to live, and I offered to let him come back home until he could. Less than a month after our Anniversary, he was back home.

He said that me making that gesture, made him so happy. That he didn't have to ask. It's pretty clear he wanted to come home long before and at different point, but that he wasn't going to ask. He wasn't going to make any kind of move until he was beyond sure I wanted it too. He said it made him so happy that I setup a room for him when he moved back in. I think even at that point he was feeling that he was coming back to sleep on the couch for a week and I was likely going to be asking him constantly when he was moving out. I of course never did.

He talked a lot about being so messed up then and just trying to cope. He talked about thinking he was spending a lot of time with the boys, but now he realizes he wasn't. That he could remember every time he did spend with them, and it seemed like a lot, because he could remember all of them. He started to realize how close S9 was getting to me, that S9 was spending way more time with me, way more bonding time with me, that he was missing out. That S9 wasn't looking towards him that way anymore.

I told him that around that time after our Anniversary, when he was looking for his own place, that I knew that was when I needed to file and move on with my life. That I couldn't move on with my life being married. I was married, and in limbo. I said that when he was going to look for a place of his own, that was the moment I knew that I had to let it go. He asked me if I wished that I had. He wondered if I wished if I had D and been able to move on and be with someone else. I told him no. It was always him. That it was really hard, knowing that I needed to give him space.

I told him he is the one I loved and love. I was holding on, because of what I learned and I thought we could get through it. I thought the relationship I could have with him would be better and more amazing than a relationship I could have with anyone else. I loved him without condition. And that period around our anniversary was hard because the boundary had been set and he was talking about stepping over it. I told him I knew that if I was who he wanted, if he wanted me like I did him, he would do anything to stop that from happening.

If you are saying your marriage was very strong and you both did what you needed to in order for it to be, why, then, is it so hard for you to see that it was a crisis?

I do see it as a crisis. All the pieces fit. Who he was before, what happened during, who he is right now. Seeing him at peace. Seeing him happy. Seeing him working so hard for me, for us. Yes, textbook.

So here's the part that is difficult and causes me to cycle on it. There is a common thread of opinion here on the forum that yes it is a crisis, but that is not an excuse. They're not psychotic. MLC does not work as an insanity plea. Another common thread is that there is things wrong in the marriage and with the LBS. No one is perfect, right. But the opinions and the blame are there. The opinions are there that in a round about way, I'm a better person now, therefore worthy of this relationship. And I have to resist any of that, because I know my much more imperfect self was worthy of this relationship then.

For sure there is a lot of what if's. To the point of what if I hadn't DB and just filed and he came running back a few weeks after S? What then? Where would be then? I mean it's not something to dwell on and quite meaningless, but I am a questing, inquisitive gal.

But, I do think that way. I think, hmm...he did want to come back a month into it. What if I had pursued him then? What if I wasn't drinking the DB koolaid and doing my "keep him at arms length work on me" plan? And I think, I may have got him back without him doing as much damage, without #3, #4, #5 on the books...but what then? Would I be who I am today? No, I wouldn't. No way. Could he and I be good? Yeah. I think so. I think it's possible. I think that could have been enough of a wakeup call for him and for me. So I think, is him doing that much more damage worth the time I had to work on myself and really like myself? And that's kind of scary to think, yeah, it is. That's not scary. That's down right f-ing nuts in someone else's book.

I trust that it was crisis and depression. I don't trust what he tells me all the time, because he's not truthful about the past. And because I don't trust what he says, I don't trust that the crisis is just a one and done.

Not exactly sure what you mean by that. ^^^ Care to elaborate?

This. This is the heart of the anger. That I ask him a question or he starts to talk about something, and he leaves things out or he doesn't answer honestly and fully. And I don't ask or call him out on it, because I feel like it's pointless. So that is the heart of me not feeling real. Because before I would ask and have the whole story. So to side step around it makes me feel fake and untrusting. It makes me have doubts about everything.

So....something came up last night. He started talking about how he had road the train. But when I asked where and why, he just said down south and then road it back up again. And I knew. I knew it was to see OW, but he just left all that out. And it made me feel anxious. And he could tell and said so. So I told him it's anxiety. That when I feel like he is holding things back, I get anxious, because I feel like I'm not getting the full story and then that makes it hard for me to trust and makes me question other things.

He then started talking, and told me he took it to see her. He remembers watching a movie but that they also got into an argument because she wanted more from him, a commitment. And then he started opening up about her even more, I asked questions. He even got to the point of asking my opinion on some of her problems. And it was good, and calm, and I felt a lot better. And afterwards he was somewhat emotional, and just thanked me for letting him talk to me, and he just hugged me for a really long time and told me he loved me.

The anger is coming from the secrets. Not from the past actions. And I'm feeling really good about things. I'm feeling less limbo and more resolution. I'm feeling like he is feeling safe that he can open up and be honest about things without hurting me or making me upset.

[uRworthy]

I have always said that it was important for both of you to be on steady ground and to be coming from a place of strength before getting to the meat of the matter. For a few reasons. The things you thought you needed or wanted, would change over time. So, you needed to get your footing and then you would know what you needed and wanted at that time.

It is important for both of you to be there. He has to feel safe to be able to tell you what you need to hear, you have to be strong enough to be able to hear it. Your relationship has to be solid in order to withstand it.

I do see it as a crisis. All the pieces fit. Who he was before, what happened during, who he is right now. Seeing him at peace. Seeing him happy. Seeing him working so hard for me, for us. Yes, textbook.

So here's the part that is difficult and causes me to cycle on it. There is a common thread of opinion here on the forum that yes it is a crisis, but that is not an excuse. They're not psychotic. MLC does not work as an insanity plea. Another common thread is that there is things wrong in the marriage and with the LBS. No one is perfect, right. But the opinions and the blame are there. The opinions are there that in a round about way, I'm a better person now, therefore worthy of this relationship. And I have to resist any of that, because I know my much more imperfect self was worthy of this relationship then.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but these are my feelings. Having a MLC does not give them a free pass on their actions. They cannot take responsibility for the illness as they had no choice in it, they can and should take responsibility for their actions. How they do that or need to do that is up to the two people involved.

Again, I can only speak for myself regarding the LBS. I think every marriage, no matter how good it is, has things that needed looking at. Yours included. Did whatever I did or didnt do in my marriage mean that my xh had to do what he did? No. My actions or inactions did not cause his crisis, not did they warrant his actions. But as a result of it all, I had the opportunity to look closely at our relationship, in a way I know I would not have if this didnt happen. And I thought, shame on me if I didnt. I think for most of us, we did find that there were things we could have done differently. I wanted that information. It was important to me. Maybe you looked back and saw nothing in your relationship that you needed to change. That's great if you feel that way.

Was I a pretty rockin person before all this? I think so. Did I have things I needed to change? Absolutely, I did. If you didnt, more power to you, my friend. I am sorry if you were given that impression, that we were less than before because in my eyes, that aint true.

Was I worthy of a great relationship than? Ayep, I sure was. I was a good person, with a lot of great qualities. And I worthy now, without a single doubt. Would I trade who I am now for who I was then? Not in a million years.

This journey for me had to happen. I was not who I knew I could be. I wanted to be my very best me and I wasnt.

But I do not in anyway think I was undeserving of a good relationship then, nor do I think that now. We are all worthy and we should all be accepting of who we are. But we should also appreciate and understand those of us who want to do better, be better.

For sure there is a lot of what if's. To the point of what if I hadn't DB and just filed and he came running back a few weeks after S? What then? Where would be then? I mean it's not something to dwell on and quite meaningless, but I am a questing, inquisitive gal.

But, I do think that way. I think, hmm...he did want to come back a month into it. What if I had pursued him then? What if I wasn't drinking the DB koolaid and doing my "keep him at arms length work on me" plan? And I think, I may have got him back without him doing as much damage, without #3, #4, #5 on the books...but what then? Would I be who I am today? No, I wouldn't. No way. Could he and I be good? Yeah. I think so. I think it's possible. I think that could have been enough of a wakeup call for him and for me. So I think, is him doing that much more damage worth the time I had to work on myself and really like myself? And that's kind of scary to think, yeah, it is. That's not scary. That's down right f-ing nuts in someone else's book.

I am a questing, inquisitive girl, too. I think that's one of the reasons why we clicked. But I am also someone who believes that things happen as they should. And sometimes we just have to accept that and let it unfold. But f-ing nuts all that ^^^ - ayep.

[AJM]

Again, I can only speak for myself regarding the LBS. I think every marriage, no matter how good it is, has things that needed looking at. Yours included. Did whatever I did or didnt do in my marriage mean that my xh had to do what he did? No. My actions or inactions did not cause his crisis, not did they warrant his actions. But as a result of it all, I had the opportunity to look closely at our relationship, in a way I know I would not have if this didnt happen. And I thought, shame on me if I didnt. I think for most of us, we did find that there were things we could have done differently. I wanted that information. It was important to me. Maybe you looked back and saw nothing in your relationship that you needed to change. That's great if you feel that way.

I totally agree with that. Those were my thoughts, albeit different words, exactly.

Look, the common thread you pick up on is, well, the thread you pick up on. Many LBS WANT it to be their fault. The point of the rehash of the past is not to figure out what you could have scientifically done differently. i.e. if I did x, he wouldn't have done y. It's to clean house, so to speak. It is also a chance to put to rest the idea that it's your, the LBS, fault that your spouse chose to leave.

It's human to go over the past and do the post-mortem on the relationship. That doesn't mean you didn't have an awesome marriage before. It's not to say you behaved poorly or that you caused grievances that couldn't be repaired. Try not to think otherwise.

But everyone has something they could have done better with something. It's part of learning. Even if it's something about themselves and not the marriage. We learn, we grow. It's human.

The MLCr doesn't get a free pass to treat the LBS poorly. That's the point of that statement. Not anything else. They made choices. They need to atone for those in a way that is acceptable to both in the relationship. MLC is not a free pass to behave poorly any more than low IQ allows you to murder without consequence.

Forgiveness is a bear. But something that comes with that is that the MLCr needs to know that their behavior was not acceptable and need to feel like they addressed it as well. It's not just about the LBS. Forgiveness is what sets you both free from the past. It's what allows you to work through the current. The future. But it does not absolve the MLCr from feeling like they have to deal with the consequences.

It does mean that the LBS doesn't require that atonement. When the MLCr gets to the point of forgiving themselves, it also means they have put it to rest.

I can understand why you're worried about the common threads. Is there something to be gained from that knowledge? Are you missing something in this?

I say no, you are not. It's one more piece of information to see, but it may not relate to your situation in the least.

Make sense? I am very happy you have these doubts Raine. You wouldn't be human if you didn't. And they will help you become even stronger. And let's face it, you're pretty awesome and have been all along. Your H knows that.

Oh, and I doubt your H wants to make out with FY. Just sayin'


AJ

[Raine]

Love you guys! Thank you for those posts. I'm waiting to pick up some pho, so I'll keep this short before my phone loses it.

I totally agree with you both. I wasn't perfect, had lots of flaws (still do) and our marriage wasn't perfect. But I also know the negatives of that don't equate to the result. The equation is unbalanced. So yes I struggle with that opinion out there and get super defensive at the thought that there could be any kind of justified cause there, for me, for any of us. And honestly even if a lbs was a total cow, then the was should still get a D first.

I'm not angry at my H. I feel a lot of compassion towards him. I even started to feel sorry for ow1 last night *gasp* where before I really saw her as an object, easily replaceable, especially with my H. And the anger that I was feeling when he would hint and side step, started to lift last night when he was being so open.

I feel extremely lucky and blessed. Because even though I know I could be happy without him, I think it would be crazy difficult to find someone who is in love with me the way he is and working so hard on making things great.

[uRworthy]

Couldnt be happier for you, my friend..but you know that. And yep, no one deserves to have this happen to them no matter what.

I totally agree with that. Those were my thoughts, albeit different words, exactly.

Hey AJ, I have no doubt you would have used different words, as mine are sometimes all over the place. LOL!

[Raine]

Hey Everyone. I just wanted to check in and let you know that everything is going really well. He is really open now. I feel like before he was hiding it, because he didn't want to hurt me with the truth, but now he realizes that hurts me even more, and that it's difficult for me to get to where I want to be with things like that lingering. I'm trying to take my time with it. It's really difficult for him, facing it. And it's difficult for me, because I just want it all out in the open, so I can feel real. So it doesn't feel like a dream. So I can trust him. So I don't feel like the fool.

LBB is pretty ticked off at H. Lots of Jr High jealousy and drama over H not doing what LBB wants to do, and caring too much about what I might want to do. H's attitude towards it is there are so many people who want to hang out with us. And before we spent way too much time and effort trying to give time to everyone. But now, it's too important to him to have the time with just him and I. He doesn't want the drama and guilt and work that goes into maintaining such a one-sided relationship. I did encourage H to talk to LBB, knowing he was having a rough time. H really reached out to LBB, but was ignored. I think H feels at peace that he made the effort, was the bigger man, and not much more he can do.

It's fascinating to me to see that H continues to follow the pattern and progression that has been outlined by others who went through MLC. Even dropping the replay friends. How much at peace he is. How happy he is. How much he adores me. I mean I didn't think this kind of relationship existed. I thought I had an amazing relationship before. But now...wow. And I appreciate it. I cherish it. I never want to lose it.

Here is my update from my DB-FB, for those who aren't on there...

Things are good. Things are amazing. I feel so blessed and so lucky. Here are some major things, at least in my mind...

He has started opening up about his past. And I can see how his past, his childhood, got him to "Crisis." And it is so major to me that he trusts me with that. He still feels horrified by it. And I feel so bad for him, but it's nothing shocking to me. It just makes me love him more. It makes me feel closer to him that he trusts me so much. At some point I think he will need to work through that more. It is so much more major to him than it is to me. I can see it and understand it. I'm okay with it. I'm actually relieved at how minor it really is.

He has told people that he is so happy right now. He is the happiest he has ever been in his life. He feels so comfortable, so much at peace. He says he feels really happiness for the first time, not a fake happiness he puts on for other people.

He said that he knows it's wrong, but he did not feel like we were married when we were separated. That we were not together. That he was not cheating on me. He knows it's wrong and he was, but that is how he felt at the time. We were technically married, but he couldn't deal with the divorce. In his heart he couldn't deal with losing me, but he saw no way of fixing anything. It was trying to move on, being forced to move on, but not being able to.

He says he is in, 100%, and he is so paranoid that he is going to lose me. That one day I will decide it's not worth it anymore, and let him go. It is what he fears more than anything else. He says that he will never get to that place again, because he has me to come to, he has a counselor he can go to, he feels strong and confident. He knows what brings him misery and what brings him incredible happiness.

He knows that I love him. He knows that I accept all of him, without expectation. That there is no price for my love or anything, it's just there, given freely, no matter what. He will do anything to keep that, to keep me, to make me happy.

He has forgotten a lot, and he really struggles with things that happened during separation. He struggles that he wasn't there for the kids, for me. He feels an amazing amount of guilt and pain. But he is so focused on me. He is keeping his pain closed, like he doesn't deserve to feel bad about it.

We went to the P!nk concert, and it was amazing. He got pretty emotional after "just give me a reason." He said he had never heard that song in that way before. It didn't mean anything to him until that night, until he saw how much it affected me. He held my hand all through the song, and kissed me after that, told me he loved me.

He is making lots of plans of things to do together. He wants to take cooking classes, dancing classes. He wants to go to a concert every month. And it's not just talk. He is looking things up and scheduling them. He wants to do so many things. He also wants to be sure that we have time alone, and do things like girls night, or guys nights. He wants family time and individual time with each of the boys.

He wants me, all the time. He calls me up to ask me how I am, to tell me he misses me, to tell me he loves me. I started to text him today that I had a great time last night and I love him. And as I hit send, he was calling me to tell me he loved me. We are so in sync.

And I am so happy. He is amazing.