Suckerpunch, the final thread

[25yearsmlc]

25, I appreciate your input so much. I cannot stress that enough. You have a way of targeting my flaws and pointing them out. Some of them you hit, RIGHT on the head. You are correct on some many things, and like usual, it has opened my eyes. Your words are always very clear and usually very on target. I do want to point out a few things that I feel there is some confusion about. I know you hate this and feel that I am arguing. I see it differently, simply because facts were stated that are not exactly accurate, and I want to set that straight.

First, W was not a STAHM, not exactly. She ran a childcare business in our home. The reason we chose this was, after the birth of our daughter, W wanted to be close to her.


That's SO much harder, but good for her! (I can't tell if you realize how you sound to me about her day care. My mom had one. It's freaking exhausting! You don't sound impressed at all; you sound mildly resentful or envious of her...and

I assume you also wanted her home with the baby, AND to earn money, so this was a win win, right? So you are grateful to her, right?

And My point remains, she was with your daughter from birth, til...when?

And fyi, I've done all three, = the working mom (which I had assumed would be IT for me b/c I was very career oriented) and the stay at home mom (way harder, no one thanks you on the outside, they often put it down and then there are the jealous women who feel threatened if you stay at home and they have to work.

AND I've tried part timing at both.

FYI*** I had NOT expected to be so moved by motherhood. My mom seemed like a slave to me, as my dad was a workaholic and mom had NINE kids...so for ME to say that I expected to work full time as a mom is exactly what ALL of my family and friends assumed I would do.
But-- I found it enthralling & demanding. And my career seemed much less important.

But h was in medical school, so, like your w, I did not have a choice about working.

My point here is that I DID NOT KNOW BEFORE HAND that I'd want to stay at home...

I'd hate it if someone resented me for staying at home. It is NOT easy to be a stay at home mom. IT's the hardest of the three, imo. But I figured the one regret I did not want to have a mother, ever, was too little time with my kids. And I had some of that regret with our first 2.

When I first stayed home, I was still in law school so I just finished law school at night & thus, I was with him in the day, til he was 9 months old)

Here is what I noticed SP...when I stayed at home officially with our 3rd, (which h agreed to ahead of time!)...eventually H resented it, even though his pay had more than doubled between the birth of our 2nd and our last one (8 years had passed too). We did not "need" the income in my opinion.

And the more he worked, the more I felt the need to stay home. And with me at home, I think he felt the need to work more. It's a weird circular thing but I'm told we're not the first couple this happened to.

As a working mom, there is always some guilt at home b/c you are not home enough, and your inlaws rarely truly approve of your child rearing, especially if you are on your own (and the sad screaming that a toddler does when you drop them off before work, is no way to start every workday of your life)

and there is guilt at work b/c you know the single folks and the married MEN get to stay late...& bill more hours, look better to the partners, etc....

and trying to do part time of either, still pulls you in every direction. And it pulls you hard.

I think a woman who can stay & wants to stay at home with her child, and who has a h who is supportive and grateful for that, will end up a lot happier.

And if she thanks the h for making this arrangement possible, and he thanks her for giving up some career steps for their child, and they both mean it, I bet their chances of staying married are so much higher.

And in that scenario, no one is measuring, or if they are, they are using tools of gratitude to THANK the other for their sacrifice without pointing out their own.

But I digress...and just thought I'd toss that out for thought or discussion.


Prior to the birth of our daughter, W managed a cosmetics business. She brought home a pretty decent wage and benefits package. After the birth of our daughter, she took one year off to be with her exclusively.

You do know how exhausting a newborn is, right?? Think back, b/c it is easy to forget in our haze...

Regardless, she probably got up 3-5 times a night, every night, for a few years until it got down to one waking, etc. Knowing how fuzzy that first year is, I can only say it'ss amazing she did it and remembers it!

I assume you gave her a lot of breaks at night b/c the birth of a child is under rated as a physical event. IT's a HUGE ORDEAL to go thru.

When you mentiond that she stayed at home the first year "caring for your d exclusively" you say it almost in a way that makes sure I did not assume she cared for another child WHILE caring for her newborn. To which I would say "thank God." A baby under a year is an infant.

If your w had started a daycare then, with a newborn, I'd have said she's crazy. First off, I think it's probably a dangerous and second, it's utterly exhausting to have a baby that age at all, let alone to care for others...
(I'd have chosen a library or bookstore job just for the quiet...)

SP, are you at all happy she had that year with your d? Do you see the value of that? Have you ever thanked your w for it?

Your situation is not that rare.

But whereas SOME women might "game" the system, I can't see how you can argue that with your w.

Oh sure, If she had quit a 6 figure job, you could argue it. But it's not as if she has made any real money in the insurance business and is it all cold calls or what?

I mean, is she AT WORK somewhere? B/C if she is starting up a business, it is not easy to have 40 paying hours a week.

Sure, with her income being lower, it "helps" her with the settlement BUT also it hurts her now, b/c she has less money. You get that, right?

Do you agree with PM's assessment that she is "gaming" the system and holding out for a lot more from you? What more is there? And she can do this, I assume, b/c the OM makes a lot?

At any rate, I do NOT buy the assumption PM made about how "the system works" this way.

It does not work that way.

Assuming your w is "gaming" the system, she would not be the first. But most do not get away with it. Because

Courts have seen this before, and the Court will impute income to her. The court will argue that she CAN make "X" amount and they will simply factor it in as counted, unless she comes forward with proof of less AND a reason for it AND the court may still say "Okay, we'll give you 3-6 months and THEN we'll impute X income", from a full time job. Problem solved.

That's what your L can do for you. They can take her present income, and Compare her prior income, to income other insurance agents who work full time make, and come up with a number between these...and deduct costs of child care for your d, and any other expenses that go Up for this...

it's how the court handles those the Court believes are "purposely under earning income" which is a known phenomenon in this country. Truth be told, men do it more often but they earn more, usually. So I guess their motivation is higher normally.

I knew a man who said he turned down a full time teaching job b/c "then the b-- would benefit", meaning his ex w...Never mind that HE and HIS KIDS would also benefit,...

His priorities were punish the ex first, reward himself second (but Not if it helped his w in any way, direct or indirectly), the family third, (or fifth, etc...) I mean, Talk about cutting your nose to spite your face. And he was not the only client like that. So sad and so frequent.

Back to you, SP...

Does her OM make a lot? Do YOU believe your w will be satisfied with HER earnings for long? If not, why not? So will she go out and earn more then?

I mean, you said yourself that you don't make a lot of money and it's all tied up in "family business" matters. So You won't be paying her any alimony, or if so, not very much, AND Not for very long b/c your m was less than 10 years, correct?

So Financially speaking, SP, what do you see as the the worst (worst but realistic) case scenario?

I think the worst case scenario would be that the court believes what she is earning now is all she could ever earn, (a leap)

AND you are hiding assets b/c your family's home was your home and blah blah blah, (overly complicated arithmetic and another leap)

and therefore you must pay her...X amount for...half the length of the marriage or til she remarried, whichever is first...?? IS that about it?

So a lot of things have to go wrong AND even then, it would still only be temporary and even then, still manageable,

AND EVEN THEN, if you lost your job OR if her income went up a lot OR she married OM, you could modify the agreement...

That is a lot of trouble to borrow from the future and complain about it now. Why do you?

Let her earn peanuts b/c unless OM is well off, you must realize at some point SHE will want and need more money. And she can earn it, right? You are here making that very case so if it is true, then she will earn more and you won't have a problem with paying her b/c she won't need it.

And if the OM is well off, as easy as it is to resent him for that, it could make your life easier in some ways.

The new way of looking at things for you is to turn it in the light and see AND SAY the good side of it out loud. Seriously, try it. The bad side is the obvious one and does NOT need saying...not nearly as much as you may think. WE see the downsides...we get it.

The challenge in life and for you especially (only b/c it shows here but also b/c you admit that your family tends to be negatively programmed).

MANY people are that way and don't know how not to be, and many think it somehow prepares them for life better. But it does NOT and that belief, that being negative somehow offers us protection in life, makes us "realists", is a LIE we tell ourselves, so we can be "right".

But Being negative just makes US & those around us, more negative. Period.

It also sometimes brings about the very things we most fear!

(E.G., when a h or w is being paranoid that the spouse wants to cheat, and then commenting on it a lot and asking for reassurances that are not reasonable, CAN drive a spouse to OP...even a spouse that might not ever have thought of it, and in that situation the very thing the person feared most, they brought about. That's merely one example.)

So tell us the good news about your marital history. See it in a way that flatters both of you...just as an exercise.



The following year, we both decided it would be best if she could spend time with daughter, but acknowledged that we could not do without the extra income. The childcare business was started and brought in roughly $2,500 of net income every month. W did the majority of the work, but I had a 4 hour window in the middle of the day that I was off work, so I assisted her on a daily basis with the kids or chores.


Shortly before BD, W decided to change her direction. She no longer wanted to have her childcare business, partly because Daughter was now in school full time.

Makes sense to me. Having your own chlild there is the one thing you cannot duplicate at other jobs. If her d isn't there, then I can totally see why she'd end the childcare.

Plus, if she was wondering about why she was so unhappy, it's good she looked elsewhere to see what changes she could make in her life to help.

After BD, W got licensed as an insurance agent, and now "CHOOSES" to work 12 hours a week. She has been doing this for well over a year with no effort towards increasing her income. She nets roughly $500 a month. You can draw a conclusion to what her intentions are yourself.

I "draw the conclusion" that she is either very inexpensive to care for, or her OM pays for a lot of things. And why is that bad? Would you prefer supporting HIM or that she ask you for money or what?

Honestly, aside from basic hurt feelings, I don't get what your complaint is, HERE on this^^ statement...


The second thing I want to point out is that I did have a counselor. I actually had two counselors, a marriage counselor and an independent counselor. I also spoke with a pastor from my church regarding my situation. I joined a small group, albeit religion based, it focuses on life skills, as well as Christ. That has been very helpful to my growth.

This ^^ is news to me. Keep it up. I thought you just said you don't have a IC and that you no longer speak to your pastor.

Also, I find that SOME pastors advise the LBSer on how wrong the WAS is, which is not that helpful....it's more of telling them that they LBSer is "Right" and the WAS is "Wrong" and then what?

Is there a reason you stopped seeing the ICs? Did you feel they helped or not?




During this process, I came here, which was also very helpful and continues to be helpful in my growth. I attended a one day parenting class, which was required by my state in order for a dissolution of marriage. I paid attention, and I did come away with a lot from that class. I have read several books, something I have NEVER done previously in my life.

meaning, what? You never read those types of books or you are not a book guy?


A few of them I have read multiple times to fully comprehend the messages. My point is, I am not simply wishing on a prayer and spouting off without putting in the work. I am working on myself, and I am continuing to grow.

I just wanted to clear these things up, incase there was any confusion.

well there was confusion b/c I didn't know you were doing those things and b/c some of what you say recently sounds like what you said before. Backslide??

But I appreciate that you are making efforts. I do. It's your life and you only get one. Do what it takes to make yourself happy. Over time, the efforts made now will yield huge dividends.