maybe a bit off the edge?

[paul19510]

Dingo, nice post. I like that you went about you day and just got back to W in a polite way. you didn't let her change or affect what your plans were for lunch. that sounds very healthy.

[melissag]

Dingo . . . yes, she is fvcking insane. Or at the very least, immature, insecure, or confused. Or maybe all of the above.

You did a great job of responding. Let her sit with her frowny face for a bit.

[dingo]

I have been reading through the Successful Men threads on the Staying Solution Focused section and I noticed that in a lot of those stories, things really seemed dire and at an end. In fact, almost all of the husbands who were eventually successful had 'given up' at many points in their journeys. It was often at this point that they were finally able to detach and things started to turn around. One thing that a few of them did was to take a step back and look at the entire situation from beginning to present and really get a better idea of where their situation is. So in that vein - here goes my situation summary.

10/11 - Wedding. Shortly after we are married, my father tells us that his cancer has returned.

10/11 - 7/12 - father goes through numerous chemo drugs but none of them work. Passes away in 7/12.

3/13 - Wife and I have a pretty heated argument about when we should have a child. She wants to start trying immediately. I want her to get her debt under control first. Somewhere around this time, EA likely starts with OM at work. OM had just finished his D 3-4 months earlier.

5/13 - Wife's mother dies of a non-malignant brain tumor. Was relatively sudden as her docs thought they could buy her more time with surgeries and other methods. Shortly after, PA started and I got the first BD.

5/13 - 6/13 - I am really not all that concerned about the ILYBINILWY speech. I think a lot of it has to do with her mother's passing and normal relationship stresses. I convince her that we'll be fine and start to 'be there for her' more.

6/13 - Wife asks for space and moves to live with a friend for a week. Now I start to get concerned and suspicious.

7/13 - A is outed. My immediate reaction is to ask her to end it and re-commit to the marriage. She says no but changes her mind the next day. The following weekend after I catch her taking an out of town trip with the OM, I confirm that that OM was the person at work whom I thought it was.

7/13 - 9/13 - I continue to do everything wrong. Sign up on another infidelity forum and the advice I get there is to file. I follow it and then wife and I proceed to do the commit/revert cycle on a 2-3 week interval. Wife still works with OM so during our 'committed' weeks, I grill her almost daily on if she was able to keep NC during the day. She is never willing to give me 100% transparency so I doubt her commitment. Despite this, we still have great times when we aren't talking about the R. We watch TV, go overnight backpacking, hike, kayak and spend time with each others' families. We sleep in the same bed every night, cuddle, say I love you, kiss good night and goodbye, etc. However, very infrequently, if ever do we ML.

9/13 - 11/13 - I find this site and start to see the errors of my ways. I resolve to change but it comes slowly (i still suck at it in a lot of ways). I still pursue, i still rationalize and I still ask questions about her contact with OM throughout the work day. We have some really good times and really bad times. Our 2nd anniversary was spent out of town. We hiked and stayed in a quaint little town and really had a great time. There was no tension (at least that I could feel) and we ML both nights we were away. With the high highs, come the low lows. When she reverts to the A, she says she's done for good. 'This time I want a divorce and Im not changing my mind.' When she re-commits, she seems more sincere than ever but she never backs up words with actions (transparency, schedule, etc.). Through this site and others, I understand the struggle she is having and try to be patient and understanding. Sometimes I am successful, other times, not.

11/13 - Wife gets a new job starting in mid-December. I am elated that she will no longer be working with the OM and she seems more committed to the R than ever. However, mid-month, she decides she is moving out and signs a lease on an apartment. We have a very emotional weekend, she cries a lot and doesn't leave the house. We talk a lot and spend a lot of time with each other. Monday morning, she cancels the rent deposit and tells the landlord she is backing out. 2 weeks later, she informs me that she has changed her mind again and is moving out 12/1/13. We go to Thanksgiving at her family's house and have a great time but the impending move is the 300 pound gorilla in the room between her and I.

12/13 - She moves out. Tells me that its to give us space and figure things out between us but I quickly find out that the OM (who she no longer works with) is spending most nights there. She admits that she wants the best of both worlds and doesn't want to be unfair to me so its time to get a D. I start to back off and re-focus on me. I re-engage in recreational activities that I hadn't done in years. She starts to notice and creeps a little closer. We exchange christmas gifts a few days before the holiday and decide not to talk for a while. The day we exchanged gifts was also very emotional. We cried and held each other a lot and took about a 20 minute nap cuddling on the couch. Other than that, interactions have been short and limited. She does not agree to give up OM, when we meet up its usually only for an hour or two, phone conversations and texts are short and relatively distant. However, there is the occasional pet name, or flirty comment from her. I initiate many of the phone conversations but she initiates the 'dates.' After not talking for a few days, we meet up for lunch. Was a very good time, good conversation, no R talk and she says she is hopeful - but again, no agreement to NC with the OM.

1/14 - I notice wife begins to cut contact with the OM and seems to be moving closer to me. She tells me that the marriage means something to her and she would like to start hanging out again. I told her that if she wanted that, she had to agree to NC and then as we move forward, we need to come up with a plan of action for how to work things through. She agrees, says she has already told the OM its over and that he was upset with her/gave her an ultimatum. We have a couple of great dates within the first week and things seem to be going smoothly. She is more talkative, affectionate and we start to interact more often. I apparently move too fast asking her if she wants to go overnight for her birthday weekend and by asking her if its ok for me to go hiking with her and her friend. These things send her into a tailspin of frustration because she feels like she should want to go out of town with her husband but doesn't feel right doing that so soon after breaking things off with the OM. I back way off and say no problem but the damage has already been done. A few days later, she wants space and NC with me and the OM to figure out which she wants. I backslide and ask a ton of questions which only serves to irritate her more. Shortly after that, she wants a divorce again because the OM is more compatible with her and she is sick of being in limbo and ready to get on with her life. More questions and rationalizing from me (ugh).

Currently - she has not changed her stance on wanting to proceed with a D. She is not convinced that the OM is the right person for her and that there is a lot of good and potential with our relationship. That's why this decision is so hard but she feels like she has to make a decision and her heart is telling her to get a D. She is not pushing anything now and told me she will let me know when she is ready to move forward with the paperwork. Initially this delay was so she could prove to me that her decision was not made when she was emotional. Now, its that so "we" can make sure we are doing the right thing. Until then, we are in a state of NC. I told her that if she should change her mind and decide that she does not want the D, she can let me know that as well. She feels very guilty about everything and thinks that moving forward will alleviate that guilt. She agrees that there were a lot of things we could have done differently and really misses our old conversations and light interactions.

So that is pretty much where we stand today. Throughout this process, she has done nothing to further the D, except to react to things I did (when I filed, she hired a L). She has never had to 'miss me' for longer than 5 days. She has not sought out counseling (to my knowledge) though she says she wants to. The OM is involved in her circle of friends so she has plenty of support in continuing to see him. This will also make it more awkward for her to re-introduce me into that group of friends. Her father has told her that he loves me, thinks I am a great guy and that marriages take work but other than that, no real advice or support.

I was initially very worried about how distant she has become since moving out. However, when I read the success stories, many, if not all, of them went through this exact same thing. I guess that's what time and space is all about. I guess its also a way to really kill the old relationship so you can start a new one.

She has never really been able to tell me what changes she is looking for from me, other than to support her decisions. The only decision we fight about is the A and D so its obviously very difficult for me to support her in that - but I have been trying to do it in a way that doesn't make her think I agree with it.

As for me, I have no problem with GAL activities. I go to the gym with a friend from work 3 nights a week. I have lost a fair amount of weight from lack of appetite but because I go to the gym, it seems to sit well on me (I was never overweight and was always relatively fit). I do have a little trouble sleeping but over the counter sleep aids have helped me with this. I have started new activities (skiing and rock climbing) but its bittersweet because I know my wife would love to do these with me and I feel like she should be there. I do need to start to make more friends and get involved with something to do most nights of the week.

Right now, my hard moments are when I wake up in the morning and weekend days when I don't have a lot going on. The other difficult thing for me is that I still live in our house. I would love to sell it and move to an apartment but she has only been out for a month and a half and i think its too early for that. I also have not replaced a lot of the furniture and things she took with her - just the things that I need. I try not to spend a lot of time at the house.

With respect to her, I am not very good at staying dark/dim and not pursuing/detaching. When we didn't talk for 5 days, it got easier and easier as the days went on and I need to keep that in mind. During that period, i told myself that any contact would wreck any chance we might have so I need to start thinking that way again.

My biggest issue with her is obviously trust. There have been so many things said that its impossible to know what is real and what isn't. With everything she says, I find myself wondering if she is telling the truth. Then I consider what her motives might be for saying that. Then I consider what if she isnt telling the truth and what her motives might be for doing that. The brain ninjas are out of control and I hate living like that. I also hate the fact that I have to be perfect with my interactions with her. During the time when we were back to hanging out, I didn't think that I was pushy in asking her to do something nice for her birthday. However, instead of telling me that she wasn't quite ready for anything like that, she flipped out and pulled far away again.

Anyway - this is a long post mostly designed to help me and everyone that's helping me see some long term perspective on what is happening. With this view, I don't think things are near as dire as I thought they were earlier in the week. It seems like its a relatively standard cycle in our situation as well as in many/most others. There is still lots of time for me to do the right thing and let this play out.

This also helps me see what mistakes I have made in the past (and some that I still make) to help me focus on areas that need improvement.

[MrBond]

" It was often at this point that they were finally able to detach and things started to turn around. One thing that a few of them did was to take a step back and look at the entire situation from beginning to present and really get a better idea of where their situation is."

You read DB/DR right? It mentions detachment right off the bat and to also review your ENTIRE M history to evaluate what to do. What you don't seem to mention is that the most important thing to do is CHANGE. If you don't change personally, nothing will.

[dingo]

Thanks MrBond. I did read both books and understand the importance of detachment. Its been very difficult for me to separate detachment/attachment from giving up/hope but I am working on it.

I have also evaluated my M history and have changed some of the things that I can. Unfortunately, a lot of what was missing are things that I just can't provide under the current circumstances. The thing that I can provide is space, pleasant interactions (on her terms) and non-pressuring/validating conversation when those things happen. A lot of the rest needs to happen when she re-engages me.

I admit that I am not very good about space and not pressuring/validating/rationalizing. When things get bad, i get desperate. But I am working on it and slowly improving.

[dingo]

new text today:

W: stepping back for now. ok?
M: yes, thats fine. Happy Birthday tomorrow.

so slightly good news but in the grand scheme of things, this changes nothing. Ive had a good day so far.

[sandi2]

1) she doesn't want to do any of the fun things we used to do with me anymore.

Did she say why?

2) she loves me but not enough to do the things I am asking of her.

That's the trump card right there.

W: stepping back for now. ok?
M: yes, thats fine. Happy Birthday tomorrow.

so slightly good news but in the grand scheme of things, this changes nothing.

Does she mean she's stepping back from you, the OM, or the D papers? You are correct, it should not change anything for you...but I'm curious as how it's good news.

[TipAnna]

Its been very difficult for me to separate detachment/attachment from giving up/hope but I am working on it.

I am having trouble distinguishing between detachment and giving up, as well. But i think that if I focus on "me" and stop worrying/wondering about him, the OP, his/their whereabouts, I take the focus off him and save than energy for me. This will most likely take pressure off him. So basically, by detaching, I believe there's hope they come around..

Either way, keep it up and in then end, you know at least you'll come out a winner!

[dingo]

1) she doesn't want to do any of the fun things we used to do with me anymore.

Did she say why?

She did not say why.

2) she loves me but not enough to do the things I am asking of her.

That's the trump card right there.

This has been the case since BD. Isnt it essentially what ILYBINILWY means?

W: stepping back for now. ok?
M: yes, thats fine. Happy Birthday tomorrow.

so slightly good news but in the grand scheme of things, this changes nothing.

Does she mean she's stepping back from you, the OM, or the D papers? You are correct, it should not change anything for you...but I'm curious as how it's good news.

it means from the D papers. On Sunday she was pretty adamant that we progress right away. I had asked her to step back because we had had an emotional/frustrating couple of days. Primarily because I have not yet learned to not let her push my buttons.

not really sure what it means, if anything, concerning the OM.

for what its worth (a fart in a windstorm i am guessing) - after i wished her happy birthday she wrote back "thanks honey"

[sandi2]

Okay, well her emotions are leading her decision making...and as you've seen, it changes every couple of days. So, try very hard to not get excited over what she says, positive or negative, since it will probably change again.

Please stop contacting her. I know, you thought it was an exception b/c it was her BD and you didn't want to appear like a jerk. But there is usually some exception the LBS can find to connect with the WAS. You have to see yourself as not being emotionally, physically, or mentally available for her. You made yourself available for her by contacting her on her BD.

I'm just making personal conversation now, but I have watched people here on this board for several years. LBS's have huge problems with holidays & special events. They can be thrown out in the ditch by their WAW, and still think they are suppose to buy a gift/card or do something on their anniversary (or next holiday. That is nuts!

I'm sure you thought it would have been terrible if you didn't recognize her BD, being a nice guy and all. Stepping back and giving more space, when you are already separated, IMHO, should include these type of events when you make yourself emotionally/physically unavailable to her. She needs to think about it. For example, she could have thoughts along the line of.... "It was my BD and Dingo and I are apart b/c I didn't choose my M over OM. I don't want back in the M and have told him I'm not ready, so I shouldn't expect to hear from him. It's my BD and I really miss him".

Before somebody jumps in and says those are punitive actions, I want to clarify that your goal isn't to punish. It is to be unavailable. I was simply giving you an example of how it can work in the mind of a WAW if she has said she doesn't want to work on things. This woman is smart. It will finally dawn on her that when she loses you, she loses the emotional support from you as well. If she loses you, she loses the part that is a friend as well. You are a package deal.

By sending her a TM, you fed her emotional food and instead of thinking how wonderful you are, a WAW is more likely to just continue on with their WAW lifestyle, believing they are doing fine.

Make sense?