Coming Back To Life

[BrightFuture]

Thanks everyone. I’ve kept the cards. I put them in a shoe box and away in the closet.

TWS, honeymoon pictures would hard to look at too. We didn’t have a formal honeymoon. We got married and then had a couple of weeks traveling and visiting H’s relatives in his home state. I have the pictures from that time. I look so happy on them. Even my parents commented back then how happy I looked.

Tiger, I’ve been thinking a lot about what I want to do if he doesn’t ask for his stuff. I think he will though. At this point I cannot even think of any other outcome. Yes, I can imagine it, but it is in my fantasy and I have a pretty good sense of reality.

Ruby, did your H bring some of his clothes back later? When he comes to stay in the house, does he bring a bag or change of clothes? I’m sorry, I just don’t remember this detail. Tossing the wedding ring in the ocean, wow, you are brave.

Busting, I’ve been reading your thread, I can relate to what you post there. I will stop by.

Job, this is what I’m trying to decide, whether I should make him take all the clothes I packed. I will make him take the boxes with his old real estate stuff that he was trying to do a few years ago. You are so on the spot about the Grinch, LOL. Some of his family used to call him that, because he didn’t like Christmas. He actually told me last year during our last R talk that I was “the best thing that happened to him”. I guess, he is looking for even better…

So, I have a few bags of H’s clothes. Pretty much everything from the closet. The only things that are still there are his business suites in dry clean bags. I didn’t want to pack them in the bags, so I left them on the hangers. I will offer him to take them like that. He actually might not want them, since he is now a simple guy, who hangs around drunks and party crowd with some teenage mentality.

I don’t know if his love for me is still there. If it is, he will be trying very hard to bury it even deeper. While going though his stuff, I found a few interesting things. I found a photocopy of what looks can be a Christmas card with just a deer in the picture. There was his handwriting at the bottom of it, saying “here is your f###ing card, and guess how much I paid for it – nothing”, singed with his name. On the other side of this paper was a note from I guess his GF, saying that this is to H’s Mom and step-dad from him and the GF. I guess he was about 18 or 19 at that time. I also found a baby book, that his Mom kept. From a very few notes there I learnt that he was a happy baby and smiled at everyone. Then there was a calendar with his Mom’s notes, the year when he went to Navy. His Mom kept the notes when he deployed, when he came back, when he called home. His Mom really loved him. He was the youngest. I have this thought that H was punishing his Mom for something, I don’t know for what, by returning her gifts and other strange behavior, like that “Christmas” message. And he was doing it for years, I think until she got sick with cancer, and it was about a year before he met me. So, based on this history, I think that he will be having whatever resentment he has for me for a long time.

So far, there is no sign of H today. Not sure if he will show up later, or he will come tomorrow. Today would be our anniversary. Strangely, I feel nothing.

[Portia]

Bright,

You are a strong lady. I know that feeling of "nothing", like a numbness.

I actually think that will help you when he stops by to pick up his things. IF he stops by to pick up his things. This is hitting him, too.

I can also relate to the cards, etc. Since Skippy and I were long distance, he did not have a lot of stuff at my place and I cleared out all my stuff from his place at BD, but there were those sentimental things, the stupid things that to this day make me laugh until I remember how it all went sour. For the most part, I threw everything into an envelope and sealed it. Other things like special towels, I took great pleasure in using for the cat

No way to the other side but through. Sure wish that were not the case, but it is.

[BrightFuture]

H just called, finally. He wanted to give the heads up. He is about 45 min away, coming to pick up his car and “stuff”.

Wish me luck. I’m all pins and needles… Why does it have to be this hard?

[job]

Bright,
I hope everything went well and you are okay.

[makingmagic]

Hi Bright... hoping all went ok!!

[BrightFuture]

So, here is the update. Sorry, it is going to be long. He came with the guy who I know at the vacation place. The guy came to visit his Dad in our city. It is hard for me to collect my thoughts right now. I was felling OK, a little tense, but I think in general I was fine. He didn’t show any excitement in seeing me. I didn’t get a hug like I did last time when he came to the house. He left without giving me one also. This is a bit strange, because he gives hugs to people easily.

He went straight to pick up his mail, which was on the kitchen table. Asked a few questions about the business, if I deposited his payments for his invoices. Grabbed the bills for the condo and property HOAs and taxes. I asked him if he wanted to pay for the property, since he told me before that he was going to live it to me. That piece of property is not worth much and there is not development in that area. He told me that he would pay it this year, and maybe next year we can sort it out. He told me that out male friend over there told him that I was inquiring about this property and whether I could trade it to something better. The male friend also told him that I have some equity in my house, so maybe someday I would want to sell it and buy a house in the vacation place, and the friend would be willing to help me with this. I just smiled and said that it was just a conversation. H said that he told our friend the same, that there would be no way I would do that. I just smiled. So, here is to proof that all my conversations with our friends over there are getting passed on to H.

I asked H if he had a sinus surgery, and he said he did and he is very happy about it.

He asked me about my work and expressed a genuine concern that I still didn’t get one. I downplayed it and said that I would get something soon.

Then he was looking for some pictures of his family on in the living room. We had them stacked on the piano. He found some.

He wanted his plastic dolphin that he had since before we were married. This dolphin is supposed to get filled with ice and crushed, I think, when his favorite football team wins super bowl. They haven’t won in years, so the dolphin just stayed in the corner of the living room.

I told him about the boxes with real estate stuff I packed for him and he loaded them in the car. Then I asked if he wanted to pick up the rest of his clothes. He asked “do I still have some clothes here”? He picked up the bags.

He asked me about what my son wanted for New Years and I gave him a list my son gave me. He said that he would pick it up tomorrow and bring it over. Gosh, do I have to see him again?

Well, it all went like there was not a distance and all this time between us for months. He looks the same, wearing the same clothes. He smelt like sweat, probably from driving for 4 hours. It just means he was not concerned about looking nice and smelling nice, he didn’t care if he would make any impression on me, I guess. He looked me in the eyes, but there was nothing to indicate that he missed me even a little. It was all business. He looked at me like he saw me yesterday and it was not a big deal. I think his love for me is completely gone. There is not even a drop of it left. It still hurts. He is just the same old H, he just doesn’t want to be with me.

Like I said, it was almost like normal conversation we would have before the BD. He didn’t hesitate to walk around the house, walked in my bedroom like he had the right to.

We talked a little bit about the dog too. I told him some details about me and dog having good time at the vacation home, at the ocean.

He asked if I did oil change for his car. I told him some details about some repairs I had to do and thanked him for letting me to use the car. He told me that I could do it again when he goes back to work next spring, unless I will have my own car by then to drive to Mexico. I said that I will probably have my own car.

He told me that I could come over to the vacation home in the beginning of February to pick up my visa, because he will be going someplace for a week at that time. I guess this is why he needs his camper. Now, I’m curious if he actually brought somebody (an OW) with him.

So, here I am. I don’t think that I have any special feelings for him either. Just the sadness that we could have a good marriage and work out our problems and be a happy couple again. But, there is nothing in his behavior to indicate that he regrets his decision. He treats me like an acquaintance, like our split is not a big deal. This is just so not right. What kind of person I was married to? He seems ok and happy. He is done. He is living up to his words that there is no way back to the M.

I don’t know what I feel right now. I was prepared for this. I just hoped that he would be more happy to see me. I’m drinking wine now. I’m glad it is over tonight.

[BrightFuture]

It just occurred to me that H wanted the pictures of his family (brothers, sister and their kids), but didn’t ask for any pictures of my son. I guess, he has electronic once on his computer, but nothing recent.

I’m dying to find out if he brought somebody with him. I almost asked him, and then I thought to e-mails my friends at the vacation home with this question.

I keep remembering more things. It is just like I’m trying to find something that would tell me different than what I saw – no interest in me or anything. When H was carrying his stuff to the car, he left the door open and the dog went outside, like he thought that he was going on the trip in the car. He knows when I pack stuff the car, it means he is going on the trip. I called the dog and kind of joked that he was not going anywhere in this car this time. H said that he actually would not mind to take the dog with him. We all know that it was not going to happened, but it was interesting that he mentioned it.

Another thing was about his phone. He pulled the phone out to look at something, and I noticed that it was the old kind of phone he had before. At some point in the summer he mentioned that he got himself a smart phone, finally. So, I asked if that was that smart phone. He laughed and said no, it was a different phone. The smart phone happened to be not that smart, and it got the treatment some other electronic devices got before, meaning it was thrown on the floor or again the wall, or something like that. That was old H, throwing things when they didn’t work as he expected. He said that the phone didn’t show if there were missing calls or messages (this actually explains why he didn’t respond to my texts sometimes), and this why he didn’t want it anymore. This was typical H. He did this in the past with a few phones, and almost a couple of laptops. This was his anger coming out. So, I guess, he still has this anger, and it might have been worse at some point, because in the last few years before the BD he was trying to control this type of anger, and there were not too many things that got thrown or yanked out of place because H was frustrated. But he did it just recently.

[Portia]

Bright,

I am really sorry that things fell kinda flat with your H. When I spoke to Skippy for the first time in eight months, that conversation seemed bizarre to me, too. Because you both are well aware of what is happening, of what has happened but neither of you want to talk about it.

This is becoming very real for both of you. And I think you did well under the circumstances. It's hard when we have so little contact with them and then they show up.

But I am going to give you a 2x4 first for this:

I’m dying to find out if he brought somebody with him. I almost asked him, and then I thought to e-mails my friends at the vacation home with this question.

You have to STOP spying on him through your friends. Aren't you the one who just realized that they have been reporting to him? Does it matter to you if he brought someone or is it curiosity? If the information matters (i.e. is a dealbreaker), then you might want to make discrete inquiries. But Bright, asking for information for gossips sake is hurting you. It is keeping you focussed on him and not on YOU.

You don't know that his love is gone for you. No doubt this meeting was as awkward for him as it was for you. More so, since your mutual friends have been reporting to him. The trouble is you don't know what or how they have described you to him.

I have bugged you about this pattern before, so I won't again. Ultimately, those decisions are up to you. Take what works for you and leave the rest.

And here's to a New Year!

[LoisB]

Cat, I haven’t had R talks with my H since last October. Did anything change in my sitch? Nope. Today he came and we just did business and small talk. Was it DB? Absolutely, according to the rules. But, and I know you don’t like this word, is there any hope for change? Nope! He likes the status quo. And he is not going to do anything.

I agree, that being emotional doesn’t help the sitch, but it is better than nothing, like in my. Pud’s H hasn’t left yet. And at least she got her emotions out. I think I should do the same, because there is nothing to lose for my anymore. I cannot let H to eat his cake anymore. I think what Pud feels as well.

Pud, I don’t really know what kind of advice I want to give you. I’m just getting disillusioned with the whole DB principle. My H doesn’t fit it, period. I would still maintain my dignity and not beg, plead, or present myself as a victim. I’m better than that. And if he thinks he can find a better person to handle his crazy personality, I wish all the best.

Bright, I brought this over from Pud's thread because it seemed important.

I'm sorry the meeting with your H was a downer.

I've struggled with the DB concepts too.

Here's what I think:

You and I are on similar timelines in this journey. It's been around 2 years since the BD and big changes in our lives in terms of our husband's decisions to move on.

We've watched other situations work out and some end the marriages. It's hard to stand by and watch even the smallest glimmers of hope in other situations when we don't see anything in ours.

I think Michelle's DB suggestions, especially with MLC, are spot on. I think the veterans here have lots of years of witnessing, learning and experiencing MLC on a personal level.

But the title of the book and the boards is "Divorcebusting." We come here to save our marriage. We have expectations to save our marriages.

Yet, the approach is similar to Al-Anon in that you may come into the program to "fix" a spouse, but, ultimately, you work on yourself and that may be the thing that changes EVERYTHING.

When you go to Al-Anon, you know the odds may be slim your spouse will get sober. But, you still work the program because you learn it's really about you getting better and the spouse getting sober thing is just the dessert--if it happens.

The suggestions Michelle and the women on these boards make are solid suggestions. As I continue to move forward, I see, with more and more clarity, why we should STFU and why we should retreat from any expectation we had of our spouses prior to BD.

The MLC-er, like the addict/alcoholic, is in a war with himself/herself. For whatever reason (maybe the answers will come in the future when MLC gets its fair amount of research)--whatever the reason, these individuals are in "crisis" --they are fragile, they are hurting, they are not in their right mind.

For us to unload all of our hurt feelings and angst on them, at this point, is maybe even a bit cruel, although understandable. It's like battering a patient in a psych ward with club in order to "make them see" their mistakes. They simply can't.

Although you think you saw no hope yesterday with your H, you aren't a mind reader and you aren't an expert in mid-life depression. You just aren't. What you saw could've been a million different scenarios:

1. A man working really hard to present to you the image of Ok-ness. 2. He could've been scared as hell to face you. Sounds like he has some preconceived notions of his own thanks to the feedback he's getting from your mutual friends.
3. A guy full of guilt and anger at himself and only able to face you by pulling together all the false bravado he could muster.

There's three possibilities. Just three. The point is...you don't know.

It [censored] not to know. I get that. And, I can't imagine the feeling you may have, at this point, to still wonder if another person is involved.

Maybe it's time to ask? Maybe it's time to formulate a very carefully crafted, short email or letter, addressing your feelings right now and your questions about his life.

I would craft it with the intention of addressing a mental patient. You have no idea where his head is at and I think the less you attack, lecture, moralize the better--I speak from a lot of experience. Stick to the facts you want to know. Speak your truth without attacking his.

[BrightFuture]

Portia, my friend, thanks for 2x4, I needed it. You can bug me about this pattern again, I don’t mind. I didn’t e-mail the friends. I’m trying really hard to stay away from mentioning H at all in conversations with them. I don’t know if the information about him bringing someone or not matters at this point. It is definitely a curiosity thing. I mentioned it before (sadly not to him, but to our friends) that if I learn that he brings someone to stay in the condo, I would probably react by initiating the D process and try to split the condo. I cannot handle the thought that OW could stay in the place I put so much money and effort into.

I still don’t know what I would do though. My sister and GFs tell me to just forget about this condo and let him have it. I’m split on this, so I will see how I feel when I actually learn of something going on over there. His comment about him going somewhere for a week in February and telling me that I could come over at that time and use the condo makes me think that there is a good possibility that he didn’t bring an OW.

You are right, he might have felt awkward too. I’m pretty sure that our mutual friends told him about how I’ve changed. They made this comment multiple times to me, and the male friend told me that he told H in one of the phone conversations that I “became a girl he always wanted”. So, there is a good chance that H was putting a happy face on and pushing his feelings away, if there are any left.

Heather, thank you so much for taking time to write this huge response to me. I’m not questioning the DB concept as whole. What I wanted to say is that it seems that it is not working in my case. At least the part of it which is supposed to help to save the marriage. I’ve done lots of changes on myself, and I actually started doing it before I found DB. Michele’s book just solidified what I already learnt by then and started to work on.

What I posted on Pud’s thread was coming from the emotions I had after H left yesterday. I’m not saying that we need to unload our emotions on them. I know it will just make me feel bad afterwards. I was just saying that I gave H all the space and STFU, and I still didn’t see any progress. It’s been 18 months since DB and I cannot say that there are any even smallest baby steps I can identify. It seems that he moves further and further away.

I just don’t know if I believe that H is in MLC any more. He looked so normal, his old self, just no emotion for me. I got an impression that he is very happy with his life. You are right, I’m not a mind reader. I thought I had a pretty good intuition, but it probably didn’t work for me yesterday, because I was so tense inside. All three scenarios that you described could be true to a certain degree, especially the first two. This is why I think so today.

He told me yesterday that he would stop by today to drop off the New Year’s gift for my son. I understood that it would be in the afternoon. I got up a little before 10 (just wanted to slip in longer, since we are planning to stay all night tonight for the New Year celebration at my sister’s.) I know that in the past I told him to not show up before 10 am. I also thought that he would call me first.

Well, I got up and went outside to put away the garbage bins. And there he was, pulling up to the house. I was not prepared, I didn’t even have a makeup on. So, I think I had some confusion on my face. He handed me the cards and I thought he would just get back in the car and leave. He hesitated for a moment and asked me if I had a small cooler for him to take. I said I didn’t know, so I went inside, he followed. I went to wash my hands and he went to the garage looking for a cooler. I let him take a very small one, which I didn’t really use.

Then he was standing at the door and kind of looking at me. He had a different expression this morning. His eyes were warmer, he was actually LOOKING at me (yesterday he was all about business.) I have a feeling that he came in the morning and without a warning on purpose. I think he wanted to see me in my natural look, without a makeup and not dressed for a cause. He asked me if I would be going to my sister’s, and wished me and everybody a happy New Year. I didn’t get a hug again. I think he was avoiding to getting closer to me. This is weird, because I got hugs from him before. I thought that with the time it would be even much easier, just like with friends or acquaintances.

So, I think you are right and he might be just working so hard to not show any emotion. And I think it was not easy for him to see me. It seemed that he wanted to get out of the house as soon as possible, after he picked up what he wanted. He didn’t bring any subjects of D or taxes, or any other division of the remaining assets. He definitely didn’t want a serious conversation. Not sure if he was surprised that I had his “stuff” packed, I didn’t see his face because I was just too preoccupied with containing my anxiety. Looking back at yesterday’s visit, I have an impression that he came to pick up his car, some pictures and a couple of other things. I might see something else later when I get my head strait again.

I think it is time to start a new thread before this one is locked.