Moved Back from Overseas to Figure This Out...

[AnotherStander]

I have been thinking about the Dobson route for the last few days. It appeals to me because the knowledge of the OP makes it painful to interact several times daily with W and I am seeing that if she wants out and feels done, then basically she has chosen OM over me.

I should have warned that not all of Dobson's book is consistent with DB'ing. The DB'ing approach is to not confront the WAS about an A. Confrontation almost always pushes the WAS out the door. It's a huge form of pressure, and DB'ing is all about removing all pressure from the WAS.

My IC seems to think I should talk to W but to "invite her back into a new, truer R where we acknowledge the old M is dead but we commit to a new R with mutual repentance"

That's consistent with DB'ing, although I don't think now is the time to tell her that. There needs to be some indication from her that she is interested in R first.

and to acknowledge knowing about the OM but let W know I don't think she is a bad person because of it

Don't water it down for her. She is likely feeling a lot of guilt about the A and SHE SHOULD. Don't ever validate an A.

Back to the M. I am not done, but I am becoming more OK if her "doneness" is permanent.

No matter how sure she sounds, you have no way of knowing if it's permanent. WAS's always speak in absolutes, but some eventually want to reconcile anyway despite how "permanent" they made things sound.

Precipitating a crisis, or forcing a blowout, would be an attempt to foster an environment where we both have a chance to evaluate things more effectively.

It doesn't work that way with a WAS. Forcing a blowout will ensure that you're that much closer to S and D. She is on a journey of her own, probably just at the beginning of it. You need to remove yourself from the picture so she can take that journey. You do that by giving her TIME and SPACE. Every single thing you do to try and "wake her up" is a distraction that takes her away from her journey and impedes her process. You CANNOT wake her up, her journey is a long, slow one that only she can make and all you can do is get out of the way. If her lifelong goal was to complete a marathon, and she was finally running it, would you "help" her by picking her up in your car and driving her to the finish line?

Quit trying to fix things. Quit trying to control the sitch. Let her run her race at her pace.

[S4tk]

With the kids, I meant that if I initiate a conversation with her about the OM and during that conversation a crisis is precipitated and she wants to leave with the kids, what are my rights as a father so she doesn't take them - for example to her sibling's house 300 miles away? Or fly them to another country?

Could I instead refuse to allow her to take them from the home? Is it better to let her take them if she insists, and then pursue some kind of legal solution?

I have read DR but I did so with the filter of "no OM" as I read it. So standing, even with this new information, means not talking about things right now? If so, what do I do about the lying and the coldness, and the daily posturing on her end as if this crisis is all about my failings and nothing about her?

You read "attack" into my last reply or two. I do need make sure that this is not the attitude I have about any talk she and I might have. Thank you for pointing this out.

I don't want to attack. What I do want (it was asked recently what I want) is enough information to know what is going on.

[completelylost]

You'll get many opinions from the posters here but when it's all said and done do what works for you. We all give advice/solutions based on what "WE" would do. Now i'm a BIG proponent of leading with love. Christ commands that of me as my W husband. Which is why I don't subscribe to the theory of the M being over at BD. Maybe one party ended it but we both took vows before God not just each other so my commitment to honor God takes precedence over ALL. Secondly, "i've" never believed in putting your head in the sand makes anything disappear. I'd confront her, will that make her leave or push further away? Who knows and frankly, you can't let the fear of her leaving control you in that aspect. Truth of the matter is you can NOT mention it and she could still leave without ever returning. Never underestimate the power of exposure.

Now I don't believe you do it as a tactic, I simply believe that behavior of that nature needs to be confronted. Passivity can be a dangerous thing. Speak up, with love... And after that let it go. That's just "MY" take and that might not line up with DBing, as always eat the meat and throw away the bone.

[labug]

With the kids, I meant that if I initiate a conversation with her about the OM and during that conversation a crisis is precipitated and she wants to leave with the kids, what are my rights as a father so she doesn't take them - for example to her sibling's house 300 miles away? Or fly them to another country?

Could I instead refuse to allow her to take them from the home? Is it better to let her take them if she insists, and then pursue some kind of legal solution?

You need a L. But if all you want is information, why are you thinking that she might take the kids?

If the level of communication she's had is unacceptable to you to the point you need to do this I would say you are done. But no one but you really knows what's in your heart.

what do I do about the lying and the coldness, and the daily posturing on her end as if this crisis is all about my failings and nothing about her?

Why do you need to do anything about it? She's not a recalcitrant child who needs corrected. That's why I posit that you're having a lot of feelings, some that are making you want to get a little revenge maybe.

From what you say, you only want to work on the marriage if you have a guarantee that she'll come around. She's a woman who wants out of the marriage.

So let her go.

Marriages usually don't break on their own, both parties have a hand in it.

[sandi2]

A similar thing, which I hesitate to call an EA, happened with W about 7 years ago. And 9 years ago she met up with an old BF without my pre-knowledge, and feelings were expressed. He did not reciprocate.

How did you deal with each time? Did you confront her? Was it swept under the rug, instead of working on the issues that caused her to reach out to these men?

[S4tk]

Journaling from today. W and I needed to go out looking at a new place to live because we recently moved back from overseas and have been living at a temporary place.

We went out and the apartment wasn't what she was looking for. On the way home, I mentioned that I needed to head out to work for another few hours. Then I saw she had tears in her eyes, and I said that if she needed I could watch the kids and she could go out for a while if she was feeling stressed. Or we could go get a drink before heading back. W said, "with you?"

W asked, "Why is it something you want to help with now?" I told her it was because I care for her and she seemed sad or stressed.

We were then at the driveway of our temporary living place, and she said, "Why do you care now?" I was clueless but I asked her to clarify.

She then explained. She had a job interview this morning and asked me last night if I could stay home from work in the morning to take care of the kids. She told me she needed to leave at 9:15. At that time, I congratulated her for the interview, told her I had something at the same time but I could move it, and then I mentioned to her that we need to follow up on the childcare idea with S1 that she had mentioned earlier in the week, so she could have more time to do things she wanted and needed. Last night, she agreed and said we should do that.

This morning, I went out for a run (part of GALing and 180 too) and got home at 9:00. I assumed that W would ask my mom (W MIL) to feed the kids breakfast, but it seemed she didn't and I could tell W was upset at me before leaving for the interview, but we didn't exchange words.

So this is what she meant later in the day in the car. She slammed the door and went inside. I debated whether to go inside or not, but I went. She was crying in the bathroom, and I knocked and ask to come in. I went in and sat down across from her, and she yelled and cried and told me that I "don't see it and nobody can make me see it." She said that I work 7-8 hours every day (M-F) and I am spending most of Wednesdays driving to IC and having lunch with my friend (I usually have lunch with my good friend to process IC) and said, "That makes sense and I see how you feel." I didn't know what else to say. We talked a little more, and she told me she didn't want anything from me anymore. She asked for some time alone and I left.

An hour later, she asked me if I could watch the kids and she go to sleep at a friend's tonight. I told her I would do that.

What can I learn from this?

Is it fair to say that W feels that I do not care about her needs, and that running in the morning and mentioning child care were selfish? I don't know how to show her that she is more important than work, when I am already working what I feel is bare minimum in order to keep my job.

My inner reaction is that she is blaming me for everything, which I already know. But I want to get past that in order to learn something from this. Is it simply, "I screwed up, so I know better for next time?"

I feel I handled this much better than I would have in the past (no defending, no arguing or debating, etc) but it was still a very negative situation and another step backward, I feel.

(Also, I have not brought up my knowledge of the OM for those who have been following my last few entries).

I almost feel the GALing is somewhat making the situation worse. I need the running and IC and weekly lunch in order to still sane, but they obviously are striking her wrong.

[S4tk]

It doesn't work that way with a WAS. Forcing a blowout will ensure that you're that much closer to S and D. She is on a journey of her own, probably just at the beginning of it. You need to remove yourself from the picture so she can take that journey. You do that by giving her TIME and SPACE. Every single thing you do to try and "wake her up" is a distraction that takes her away from her journey and impedes her process. You CANNOT wake her up, her journey is a long, slow one that only she can make and all you can do is get out of the way. If her lifelong goal was to complete a marathon, and she was finally running it, would you "help" her by picking her up in your car and driving her to the finish line?

Quit trying to fix things. Quit trying to control the sitch. Let her run her race at her pace.

Another Stander,

I will try to follow this advice. I know many here whose spouses have left may find it hard to swallow, but my happiest evening in days has been tonight. W went to sleep at a female friend's house, and I have the kids.

Acting "as if", especially these first few weeks of knowing about the EA (maybe PA) has been more difficult.

[S4tk]

You'll get many opinions from the posters here but when it's all said and done do what works for you. We all give advice/solutions based on what "WE" would do. Now i'm a BIG proponent of leading with love. Christ commands that of me as my W husband. Which is why I don't subscribe to the theory of the M being over at BD. Maybe one party ended it but we both took vows before God not just each other so my commitment to honor God takes precedence over ALL. Secondly, "i've" never believed in putting your head in the sand makes anything disappear. I'd confront her, will that make her leave or push further away? Who knows and frankly, you can't let the fear of her leaving control you in that aspect. Truth of the matter is you can NOT mention it and she could still leave without ever returning. Never underestimate the power of exposure.

Now I don't believe you do it as a tactic, I simply believe that behavior of that nature needs to be confronted. Passivity can be a dangerous thing. Speak up, with love... And after that let it go. That's just "MY" take and that might not line up with DBing, as always eat the meat and throw away the bone.

completelylost,

Thanks for the input. I have considered the power of exposure. I have gone back and forth the last several days. At the moment, I think I need to wait for more evidence to figure out what exactly "it" is. Maybe in the meantime God will intervene and unveil everything in time.

[S4tk]

You need a L. But if all you want is information, why are you thinking that she might take the kids?

Her parents live overseas, and the OM also. Near the beginning of this, but after bomb drop, she told me she wouldn't take the kids from me because she knows how important they are to me, and how committed I am to being a good father. She also begged, no matter what, that I would never take them from her.

At the time, I said that if we ever ended up in that situation, we would figure out how to parent together.

But she has been so Jekyll/Hyde these 5 months that I no longer trust her, especially after discovering the A. So my fear comes from lack of trust.

If the level of communication she's had is unacceptable to you to the point you need to do this I would say you are done. But no one but you really knows what's in your heart

I believe there is a high likelihood they have met personally during her trips, in which case I fear (again, the theme is fear) that it is more than "communication." But I don't know that for sure.

That, coupled with the loss of respect toward me, etc. etc. made me feel done this week. I was pretty down about it. But a feeling is not always a decision, and I think I have pulled back from the edge.

Why do you need to do anything about it? She's not a recalcitrant child who needs corrected. That's why I posit that you're having a lot of feelings, some that are making you want to get a little revenge maybe.

Maybe you are right. I don't know if it is revenge. I think I panicked and felt the need to act. Some kind of auto response in me to keep myself from too much injury maybe.

From what you say, you only want to work on the marriage if you have a guarantee that she'll come around. She's a woman who wants out of the marriage. So let her go. [/labug]

I think I have been working on myself for the last three months, and will continue to do so. I see that as potentially working on the M in the event she changes her mind. So I'm not sure that is accurate. At the moment, there is no M to work on. So even though I'm not done, I don't exactly know what that means.

[quote=labug]
Marriages usually don't break on their own, both parties have a hand in it.

If I am giving the impression that I didn't have a part, then thank you for calling me out on that. My lack of emotional expression to her, not going to bed with her most evenings, criticizing her feelings (blindly but I am now aware of it), and a host of other things helped to create this mess.

[S4tk]

A similar thing, which I hesitate to call an EA, happened with W about 7 years ago. And 9 years ago she met up with an old BF without my pre-knowledge, and feelings were expressed. He did not reciprocate.

How did you deal with each time? Did you confront her? Was it swept under the rug, instead of working on the issues that caused her to reach out to these men?

In the first instance, she told me that evening and seemed remorseful. I don't think we worked on the issues or dealt effectively with it. With the second instance, she attended IC and I came with her maybe 3-4 times but the C felt the issues were mostly with W and focused on some painful childhood stuff. We then began weekly date nights, evening couch time to talk, and random acts of kindness toward one another.

We never abandoned the date nights since seven years ago, but I think when kids came the couch time and random acts were often neglected.