Finding nuggets of gold on this Great Big Hill

[Pudmuddle]

Oh boy peeps, I have lots to post here. So hang on. I may have to post in sections, lol.

Hi 2t, it has been eating at me for a bit that I needed to shake things up a bit...and I did last night.


Here come the postings! I know it's 2x4 time, but I also said a lot of things that I needed him to hear, and I got him to talk a bit more about us.

Enjoy the show!

[Pudmuddle]

I confused myself even more by what I did last night. I was feeling good about the positives I've seen lately so for some reason I felt the need to push it a little more. The 3 glasses of wine helped me with that too.

After we had all gone to bed, I went down to H's bedroom. I sat on the edge of the bed and told him I really wanted to make love to him. He said 'I don't want too'. I expected that answer, so it didn't hurt as much when he said it. I then started to try and ask him questions. He said he didn't want to talk about it right now, at night. I said well when DO you want to talk about things. He said I'm tired I want to go to sleep. He said this twice and then I said Well I'm your wife I won't go away that easy.

I stayed there on the edge of the bed. I felt a strong need to hear words from him, even if they weren't what I wanted to hear. I wanted to see some form of thoughts in his head about what was going on. I then asked him if he had any interest in working on things inside himself or us. He said what's done is done, it's done. I said if you're done then why haven't you moved out so you can live that life. He said Why don't you move out. I said because I'm not the one who wants something so different than this life and home that's here. Why are you still here? He said I'm here for my son. I said well you certainly aren't being a good role model for your son. He said Well I still don't know why my son is in therapy, I don't know why he is hurting. I try to ask him and he won't tell me. I said Well you have been so critical of him in the past it has made him not want to talk with you about certain things. Plus, he asked me not to say anything and I want to honor that. If it were something life-threatening, immoral or illegal I most certainly would tell you, but I want him to feel safe that he can confide in me. He said Absolutely, I understand that.

I said So what about us. If you don't want to work on things within yourself or things with us, then maybe you're right and we need to split up. Because I need to be with someone who knows that marriages has its ups and downs and will stick by me during the downs as difficult as it gets. I told him I could have someone else if I wanted to, but I choose not to do that because I believe this is just a hard time we are going through. And if you think about it we have been through a LOT in our marriage and a LOT in our lives has happened. It was a lot to of stress to put on a marriage. He said yes we have, but I don't want to do anything(right now). I said Ouch and stopped talking.

We sat in silence for a few minutes. I said how can you feel good every day knowing that you are lying to me and your son about what you are doing. It is awful for me to think of you being with someone else and playing dad to someone else's daughter when you have your SON at home. It hurts to know that you talk about me to her. He said I don't talk to her about you. I whispered calmly You are with someone who is willing to help destroy a marriage and of course she wants to know why you are leaving your marriage behind so you ARE talking to her about me, so don't F@ckin' lie to me. He didn't say anything. I said you must think I'm really stupid and you must hate me. He said I have never ever hated you and I don't think you are stupid. You are a good person. I said I know you've been with her longer than since June and it all makes sense now in some of your actions before then. He said I have NOT been with her longer than that, only since June. I said so are you really working tomorrow or is that a lie and you are seeing her? He said no I am really working tomorrow, I do have assignments. I said well you have been lying for so long about where you are going I don't know if I know what to believe about where you are and what you are doing. I said I want to believe you but you have never given me reason to believe you with all the past and present lying about things.

So I said well do you have any more surprises up your sleeve or are you going to slam me in the gut coming up? anything I need to know about? He said No I'm not going to do that, I wouldn't do that. I said Well if you're staying here then we need to work on some things because this is really hurtful and awful for me. Do you know how traumatic this has been for me? He said No I don't. I'm thinking...seriously?? I said How can you rip apart someone's life and not know how much hurt you've caused. I really need someone who can work through the difficult times and not be tempted by their own ego. You still seem to think all of your problems inside and not being happy is all me and our marriage. I have made mistakes, yes, and I have f#cked up, yes, but I do not deserve to be treated this way. I don't care about the affair, you know why? Because it doesn't matter in the scheme of our marriage, what matters is that you are happy inside. So if seeking happiness outside of yourself and not wanting to work on what hurts you is what you want then maybe you are right and we need to split up. I want you to be happy and I want to help you get there but if you don't want to or move forward into being a better person then let's move on. I believe in the person you could be and believe that you could get there.

[Pudmuddle]

I said But you won't talk to me, you don't tell me when I have hurt you so bad that it cuts you to the core. Then you keep it in for years and I don't find out until years later that it really hurt you badly. He said well you should have known it hurt me. I said Seriously? I am not a mind reader and I am not perfect so how would you expect me to know I've hurt you? I said there are things you have held on to for years and when I thought we had worked through it I find out it STILL bothers you years later. How do you stuff things down for SO long. He said I know, I don't know why I do that. I said I still think you haven't forgiven me for what happened in the past with my EA, and then PA. He said yes that hurt and maybe I haven't forgiven you. I said well I am not perfect and you put me on that pedestal and I messed up, I am human. Then when your solution to this was to get into the whole swinging thing as a way to make yourself feel better about being with someone else outside of a marriage, I went along with it because I really wanted to make you happy. But that time was actually very traumatic for me. He said well you sure jumped into a R with JS(divorced coworker) quickly. I said yes I did because I wanted attention from anyone at that time, I didn't care if it was negative or positive, just any emotional attention. I said and I was hurt that you found someone separately outside the swinging deal we had and actually started taking her on real dates! The things that I wanted so desperately from you. Mine was just an eff buddy, not that that is any better. But I won't do that now because it hurt us both so badly. That's why I don't understand how you can do this (affair) again so easily after it hurt us both so much. At that point I touched his face softly and said Where did I lose you? Then I laid down on the floor with a pillow and started to cry.

I was talking to myself softly trying to figure out what the he!! happened to us. He said a few times, I can't hear you, what are you saying? I said what does it matter when you won't talk to me and tell me when you are hurting. There was silence in the room for about 15 minutes as I lay there wondering if stfu works with him. Then he said What made you seek out B? (the EA). I was thinking to myself wow, this still does hurt him for him to bring this up yet again and that's the first thing he wants to talk about.

I said I wanted someone who would give me the emotional attention that I wasn't getting from you. You couldn't seem to care about my emotional side and all you seemed to want or care about was getting sex from me, so it didn't feel connected. You didn't want to work up to having sexy moments. I am a very physical person actually and even though our sex has always been amazing, I needed to be connected with you and I felt you didn't want that or even want to try. So it hurt. He said Yes I was very immature back then and I could only think about what I wanted. I see that now. I said why is it so hard for you to let go of that? He said I don't know. I said I have forgiven you even now for all of the A's because those don't matter, what matters is how you cope with them and move forward. He said Yeah I know, and I do see that your apologies to me have been amazing and very heartfelt. (I had written him letters after BD apologizing for the hurt I caused him and the mistakes I'd made in our marriage).

At this point we were both exhausted. I lay on the floor for a bit. And he said you should go upstairs because that is going to kill your back. I said I am fine. I stayed there for half an hour and then got up when I heard him snoring. He awoke and said Good night. I didn't answer, and just went to my bedroom

So this morning as I was typing all this drama out on my computer, he comes upstairs with a clipboard and says I know you don't believe me but I do have assignments and work to do today, and he showed me the assignments laid out on his clipboard. I said I believe you. He then says Well I haven't given you precedent in the past to believe me. I was nicely shocked that he would do this after our discussion last night.

[LoisB]

Wow. Pud. I'm not sure what to say. What do you need to hear right now?

[uRworthy]

Oh boy, Pud, that must have been a difficult conversation.

Here's what I believe. This whole process is not a one size fits all. It cant be because every crisis is different, every reason for it is different, the people in it are different, as are the situations.

What might be right for one, might not be right for someone else.

But I also think that the basics should be the same. GAL, beginners mind, do what works, dont go down cheeseless tunnels, etc.

WIth the MLCer, there are some things that I have found to be true. Their issues run deep. They have not learned coping skills, they have to go through the whole journey to come out the other side.

So, you said what you said. You wanted him to hear it. He has, right? No need to say all that again.

I want you to be prepared that this might make a difference for the very short term, as in him showing you he had work, but, in the long term, it will not have the affect you might be hoping for.

You need to let this sit with him. He needs time to process it all. It could very well send him rushing back into the tunnel for a time. What it does long term, you cant be sure.

I hope having said all that brought you some sense of peace. I hope that you keep your expectations at zero. I hope you know what an incredible lady you are.

[Pudmuddle]

Nothing really heather, I was mostly venting and I know it was a lot to absorb. Just sharing the storybook that is mlc land. It was weird and good and I wonder if he will ever be able to realize what is going on inside.

[BrightFuture]

Pud, I don’t know if I want to give you 2x4. It seems like you needed this conversation. Here is my observation from what you described. You H probably needed to hear your apology for your past mistakes again. It probably made a bit of a difference. He is clearly not ready to make a final decision. He is confused, he uses your son as a justification for him to not make any moves right now. I thought it was very positive that he wanted to convince you that he was going to work.

Now, here are some 2x4s. When I spoke with my DB coach last year and described some of the things I did, like saying that I missed H, he asked me to pinpoint the exact time when it happened last. He said that the clock of DBing is set to zero from that time. So, every time you have some kind of R talk, you set yourself back in DB process. I’m thinking now that my H was not 100% sure what he was doing with our M last year, and I think that my pursuing helped him to make a final decision. So, you need to be extremely careful with these R talks right now. It seems to me that your H is going though this period when he trying to figure out his next step. Even a little push from you could change your sitch. Unless you are ready for that… This is just my opinion, and I want to put a disclaimer here that I’m a very fragile state of mind right now and might not see things clearly. The only thing I can tell you for sure is that after yesterday’s conversion you need to sit quite for a while, evaluate, and also give him some space too.

[LoisB]

No 2x4's here.

I could feel the emotion and it took me back to conversations and rejection and hurt feelings. I've had those conversations. I've offered myself and been rejected. So hard.

I think--(this is coming from someone who is quite possibly the worst DB-er ever)--after an episode like this, it's important to take really good care of yourself. I hope you are able to have a good day today.

Heather

[Pudmuddle]

Thank you bright. You may be in a fragile state yourself but I think you made some excellent observations. It's so hard to see these things when you are entrenched in it at the moment it is happening. So I really appreciate the observation. I like what your coach said and it is probably right. I also think my H and I needed too have this conversation right now since I feel like we have been at the beginning and stuck in limbo since this started. I kind of feel like I know a little bit more about where I stand with him at this moment.

I agree I need to sit back and lay low and just keep doing my own thing.

[Pudmuddle]

Thanks Heather. I am going to be good to me today. I took my S shopping for some jeans and we had fun because he is so silly sometimes. We got some salads and ate them together, it was good mom son time.

I also spent time getting some online xmas shopping done, so I was able to cross a few things off my list, so that felt good.

I even took a nap for a little bit today. Still exhausted from the emotions of last night.

I don't think you are the worst db-er ever, Heather. I think you had a LOT of things happen in your life that are out of your control. I think you are amazing for finding the better side of you in all the life muck you have waded through, so hang in there my friend.