Look what the cat dragged in! (TL) - Act 2

[tigerlily78]

Did myself proud just now.

I called H to see if he was joining me for lunch, he clicked the call over to voicemail. I didn't let my mind run about why. I just let it be, plenty of possible reasons, but no point in me worrying.

He came home late for lunch. I asked if he had already eaten. He said he just stopped at Subway and had assumed I ate already. "Why did you call me and leave voicemail?" I said, to see if you were on your way for lunch or not, I was hungry and getting ready to eat without you.

He came home with a folder from the bank. He left it on the kitchen table while he got a drink in the kitchen. I didn't pick it up and page through it (like I would have before). I gave it an obvious glance, but didn't ask about it. If it's meant to be my business, he will tell me.

This is a big 180 for me. I don't need to question and understand everything. I am offering up trust in his decisions. I stood in the kitchen just now and basically said, "I trust that if this concerns me, you will let me know" without saying a word.

[JFun51]

Keep working at that TL. I've noticed W leaving her phone around away from her lately. This was unheard of after BD when I was snooping. Then I started noticing where it was at all times. Now I don't care. Things that concern finances, I just handle. I don't ask, consult, etc. I just do it. Whatever they are gonna do, they are gonna do. Believe that!

[tigerlily78]

Well, therapy today was tough. I think my therapist is determined that I put H on the fast track to somewhere and I think she has convinced herself already that he isn't worth my waiting more than a month or so more in the current situation and then he is going to have to pick *A* home and change up the circumstances. Either decide he is all in for the OW (I am pretty sure this would be what he would choose if forced to), or staying here and starting to work on our R.

At the very least she thinks if he cares about our son at all and the longterm effect of the household stress on him, that H should get himself into therapy.

Ugh. If he would do even that ONE thing (therapy) then I wouldn't feel like having to press for a change in the living situation. It would give me at least a little hope that he was THINKING about this situation in a more productive and reflective way... not just content to coast along "waiting" for something to change in how he feels, while being extra content with the idea of NOT initiating any changes to the situation that WOULD result in evolving the emotional landscape.

[tigerlily78]

We also talked about my issues... oldest of 6 kids, had to take on a lot of responsibility and care for my siblings early on, never felt like it was okay for me to want or need something. My family often struggled with money. I would wear shoes until they fell apart or I literally could not squeeze my foot into them another day... and more often than not it was the foot squeezing. My Dad was an alcoholic, worked long hours doing seasonal work most of my childhood... so most of the summer we hardly saw him except around bedtime. I really did pick a different version of my father. Someone who was a good provider, but was also aloof and unavailable in his own way much of the time. Underlying addictive tendencies, though my H did well to avoid most of those obvious things that lead to addiction. He only drinks in moderation, never did drugs, doesn't like gambling. I would almost say his addictions are computer games and exercise and sometimes hobbies/interests. Things you can accept as normal... until the addiction came in the form of another person. He says the "intoxicating emotions" have died down... but I don't know if I believe him. I think even though he is no longer completely out of his mind delusional over her, that he has pegged his newfound confidence and good feelings on her enough that he won't ever want to give her up. It will take a long time for that to wear off, if ever. I don't know if he will ever have the capacity to be his own person and find happiness within himself for his own sake. That makes me really sad. It took him 16 years to figure out *I* couldn't make him happy. What are really the odds he will figure it out with her any quicker?

I had convinced myself that it makes me happy enough to make other people happy and well cared for... and now I find myself in the situation where the person I most wanted to make happy was not happy... and perhaps he was largely incapable of being securely happy for any extended period of time due to his own insecurities and wants/needs that went unexpressed. It is not that I would not have been willing, but that I didn't know what was needed. I seemed to be pouring my energy into plenty of things that DIDN'T work. Is it any wonder eventually I reached a point where I wondered why I was even trying?

Maybe even H didn't know what was needed well enough to ask for it. And in turn I am sure I didn't do enough to communicate my needs, but now I find myself wondering if asking would have done any good. I think I was very fearful that he wouldn't WANT to meet my needs, that certainly he would never be as selfless as me, that if I asked for things and he didn't want to meet my needs, then I would have to accept that he didn't love me as much as I wanted him to... it is entirely possible he wouldn't have cared to meet my needs all along. Who knows.

We didn't even get to my mom yet. But I see that she too was the burdened wife who tired to make someone happy, who due to the alcohol was often looking for a reason to find fault. And in time she too lost the motivation to do half the things she used to... it wasn't appreciated, why bother? There was always something to complain about. My parents didn't often have constructive conversations to solve problems or make goals, etc. Dad made the money, Mom spent the money, and then they would argue about it. I see that my H and I had also compartmentalized our household duties so it was easy to lose track of us being "partners." H likes to give instruction and not have to explain himself. I don't mind taking instruction, but know I am intelligent and insightful and I LIKE to be involved in making decisions... and if I am going to take "instruction" then I do like to understand the reasoning behind the decision being made. I don't feel like I should have to "take orders" from someone who gives advice, but rarely ever pitches in with any effort to carry out the orders, unless they can explain to me why it is worth MY effort (and my effort alone). I like to understand WHY I am doing what I am doing.

I can see now on the other side of the situation that my H felt disrespected and not trusted when I asked for an explanation of his decisions. I honestly don't think I ever asked for clarification or explanation with that INTENT, but nevertheless that is the message he was getting.

It's awful how something so simple like that leading from a difference in perspective creates such a giant sense that we were not working "cooperatively" and I think my H feels we never will be able to. He'd rather have this person in his life who worships the ground he walks on, but probably has a far lesser capability to actually carry our his plans/directions without him holding her damn hand.

I would have liked for him to give me a hand with a lot of things, but I have never NEEDED him to hold my hand... except for affection and emotional support, and he was often awkward and uncomfortable with those sorts of signs of affection, especially in public.

[Pudmuddle]

Hi tigerlil, your childhood sounds rough, but I see you have amazing coping skills. Your insights are so articulate and intelligent.

I agree it [censored] that spouse's decide to not work on our marital issues and just run away. However awful it is, it does give us a chance to learn more about ourselves and even our H's. Perhaps someday we will realize our H's can't look inside or learn to cope and we will be strong enough to let go. But we do have glimmers of hope that they will get to a stronger place and be happy inside. Part of what keeps me going is knowing that H really isn't happy inside, with himself. I want to see the happy person, regardless of how this turns out. I still believe in the person buried deep inside. At least for now.

Hang in there, you really are an amazing, strong woman. Completely his loss if he never sees that.

[Feenix]

I second what Pud said ^^^!!!

Also, I found this insight from you really good for me, too:

"We also talked about my issues... oldest of 6 kids, had to take on a lot of responsibility and care for my siblings early on, never felt like it was okay for me to want or need something. My family often struggled with money."

I wonder how many of us in difficult relationships fit into a similar category?

I'm the oldest of three kids and while my parents weren't alcoholics or anything like that, we were very poor. I got made fun of a lot because I wore boys' tennis shoes, and clothes, to school because my older boy cousin passed them down to me.

While my childhood was happy, I did always feel "guilty" when I needed or wanted something. And, I also enjoy helping others and making them happy. It's tough to see H so unhappy when I just want him to be happy!

It was interesting for me to see your train of thought on that....gives me something to think about in my own sitch.

Maybe our personality types lead us to codependent relationships with our significant others.

And your thought about wanting him to help you but not needing him to???? Totally my sitch.

Keep digging! You're sorting through some good stuff.

You are amazing and strong. Don't you ever forget it!

[tigerlily78]

While my childhood was happy, I did always feel "guilty" when I needed or wanted something. And, I also enjoy helping others and making them happy. It's tough to see H so unhappy when I just want him to be happy!

It was interesting for me to see your train of thought on that....gives me something to think about in my own sitch.

Maybe our personality types lead us to codependent relationships with our significant others.

And your thought about wanting him to help you but not needing him to???? Totally my sitch.

Angela, yeah I wore lots of handydowns too. Or whatever was cheap at Walmart... I know kids can be so cruel when you don't have the money to wear all the "in" stuff. It makes me sad. And I do realize that I have some psychological issues tied to money and finances... like when H and I were financially pretty secure I did sometimes go overboard in just buying what I wanted without thinking about if I needed it and if that money couldn't have been better spent elsewhere or saved. And I know when we were NOT financially secure it tends to evoke a lot of anxiety and insecurities in me that are maybe even more than the norm. When he was unemployed for an extended time once, I really did feel myself questioning if he was doing everything he could to find a job... and I am sure that made him feel bad. And it annoyed me that he wasn't open to the idea of me finding any crappy job to make SOME money in the meantime. I guess in that sense maybe I was "negative" and "pessimistic"... while he was optimistic he would find a job soon enough that he didn't want me to make a big change in our lifestyle by getting a job myself. And of course at the time, neither of us really took the initiative to talk about the money/unemployment situation except in the most superficial way. No feelings talk. Just the facts.

I also realized this afternoon that my Mom was the disciplinarian in my household for most of my childhood. When we were younger she would pull the "wait until your Dad gets home card" and then my Dad would slap you on the bottom with his belt. Later on, when I suppose my Dad resented spending his little time at home making his children cry my mom would spank us on the butt with wooden spoons. My mom broke wooden spoons on the edge of the kitchen table. She broke them on our butts (usually my brother's). If you sassed her you got your mouth washed out with soap.

I was a smart kid, I learned early on that it was worth it not to be in trouble. My brother who is 2 1/2 years younger than me never stopped being in trouble. As I got to be a tween I did have trouble with telling my mom she was a hypocrite or a b*tch... By about the time I was 12 I was already sick of pretending that my good Christian, Catholic, Conservative family was so wonderful and virtuous. I think I have spent everyday since trying to be a genuinely good person, without having to rely on a label to brand me as such.

I understand now that when I was younger and my mom had fewer kids and no job, her fuse wasn't quite so short. That she would give us warnings and expect us to obey, and sometimes we didn't and then there were consequences. But as the family got bigger and she had a job and was burnt out from all the responsibility, she became much more volatile.

I know I tend to get "ranty" when I am upset. And sometimes I explode and lash out... and I don't like it. It reminds me of my mom. This is something I really want to work on. Like REALLY REALLY.

Even though I don't abuse my son, I do see how when I am angry with H I take on a tone that surely makes him feel insulted, and maybe inferior. That I raise my voice and get in his space I know makes him feel the need to react/defend. He doesn't really listen to what I am saying, so I should no better than to resort to that behavior.

H has done this too at times... get "intimidating" when he is angry sometimes. But since BD seems more content to mock me or bring up some past sin of mine to "keep score." He also keeps pointing out how I am "always so negative. I have always been negative." I can see how I have a way of saying things that probably gives them a negative implication... even if I don't think really that I AM a negative person. If anything I think I am someone who calls people out on their bullshit, and right now that is not something he can handle.

One thing that really pisses me off right now... is that I have this capacity to forgive people and give them chances to change or do better SO easily. I don't want to be judged by things I did 10 years ago when I was stupider and less experienced than I am now... I try to extend that courtesy to other people, especially those who have CHANGED, but H keeps score in his head of everything anyone has ever done to slight him. There seems to be no REAL method to gain his forgiveness. You can say you are sorry, you can change your ways, you can work to make amends, you can promise you will never do it again... and 12 years later it is something he is still going to throw in your face to prove "you aren't perfect either." Well, no I am not perfect. But I am also not the same version of myself who made that mistake and would keep making it given the opportunity.

I also feel like one of our parenting disagreements when son was young was about discipline. That I did not even want to slap by son on the hand or spank him for fear that I would become like my mom in the discipline department... H didn't seem to understand my resistance to those methods, although he was honestly also abused by his parents and step parents in the same ways and much worse. I think H thought my "lack of discipline" made son spoiled and poorly behaved... even once we got the Asperger's diagnosis, I felt like H was still blaming me for not "fixing the problem" through better parenting. Did I sometimes YELL at son in ways that were probably too severe? Yes, at times. But I think I worked very hard to break the cycle of abuse and can feel accomplished in what I did to establish positive and consequence driven discipline.

I also kind of feel like I have perhaps an overly developed sense of Justice and Fairness because of the abuse when I was a child. Like my mom would say, "If the person who broke my lamp doesn't fess up, then I am going to spank both of you." And I would say "brother did it" (and be telling the truth, and brother would say I did it, and Mom "didn't know who to believe so we both got punished. Although I would always feel like Mom SHOULD know which one of the older two kids rough houses and throws balls in the house and breaks things and LIES... WHY couldn't she BELIEVE me over brother. I had a reputation as the good kid, my brother was a known hellion. It was not FAIR for me to be punished for something I didn't even do. And I feel a little of that same sense of injustice in this MLC situation. "I was the good one, why am I being punished."

[tigerlily78]

But we do have glimmers of hope that they will get to a stronger place and be happy inside. Part of what keeps me going is knowing that H really isn't happy inside, with himself. I want to see the happy person, regardless of how this turns out. I still believe in the person buried deep inside. At least for now.

Thank you for this Pud, and your vote of confidence in my strength and coping skills. I really liked what you said here, that you want your H to be able to be happy regardless of how things turn out. Deep down I know I feel that way too, I even told him so crying in the kitchen at Bombdrop. He knows that his happiness is important to me, really, truly. I hope in time he can find peace and happiness for his own sake, and of course I want to share in it. But I have to accept, that maybe that won't be the case.

[tigerlily78]

So today's update. Yesterday H "committed" to talking to me for a few minutes today about my therapy session (he was too busy)... then he elected not to come home for lunch, to come home later than he normally does, and then sat in the car in the driveway for about 10 minutes before coming in the door. (Stalling much?)

Finally he comes in. I let him go upstairs and get undressed, he calls down the stairs to remind me he probably won't eat dinner here, he is going to skate. I call up and remind him that we were supposed to talk for a few minutes about some things my therapist mentioned.

He comes down stairs. I say that most of my therapy session focused on me and things I need to work through, but my therapist did mention that she thought for son's sake that she would really like to see H consider doing his own counseling. That her perception was that we were both too willing to just "wait and see" and that therapy might be a useful tool to help guide H toward a resolution more quickly... that the uncertainty and the confused nature of our living arrangement seemed stressful for everyone, and persistent stress like that in the home environment could be harmful to son if it wears on for a long time.

He gets defensive and says he doesn't think my therapist can possibly know what he is doing and what his plans are and what actions he is taking... and that she is only getting my perspective, so she can't see both sides of it. I agreed, that it was true, and that I feel like I am very in the dark about what he is doing and what plans he has and what he thinks will be the "timeline" for making some kind of decision... so it's true that I can only tell the therapist what I know and perceive about the situation. H says he thinks I misrepresent some things and that's not fair. I said it is possible, but again, I can only work with what I know and perceive to be happening and I only talk about things that seem relevant in the flow of the conversation.

All I know is that my therapist thinks there should be some sense of a "deadline" to make a commitment one way or the other and I don't know if he is thinking in that way about it or not and that she thinks therapy could be a good tool for him too. He says he has a timeline in mind, but he thinks it will take him "months to be able to decide anything." I say, okay, so months... that is information I didn't have before. See? I can only guess at what you are thinking unless you tell me, and most of the time you don't want to tell me this kind of stuff.

H says it sounds like therapy is a "two against one situation already"... that he doesn't see how it would help him to be in therapy.

I said it may seem that way because her goal is to help ME work through MY problems and MY feelings and MY issues. And that in a way, he is really a side issue from her perspective... so maybe he does get short thrift in the conversation. The focus is on me and what I can do to improve myself and my future ability to protect myself and cope with things. And I pointed out that if he went to his own individual counseling, then the situation would be focused on HIM... and then HE would be the one steering the conversation with HIS perceptions and thoughts on things.

Later on we had a bit of a msg exchange. At one point he said we would talk about something another time, but not now. I replied, "another time... like in a few months?" It was meant to be a joke, but he didn't take it that way. He said it was negative and rude. I pointed out I meant it was a joke.

He wanted to end the discussion, I added a couple more lines to clarify how I was seeing the discussion and that I don't agree with his assertions that I am a negative person and left it at that.

I knocked on his door when I was about to make dinner to let him know what I was making and that it would be done in 30 minutes... that he could decide whether he wanted to eat here or not. He decided he would like to eat what I was making. Then he got ready and left to skate. I didn't expect I would see him again tonight. Son and I made plans to bake chocolate chip cookies after he left.

H came home for awhile after skating. He came home to "check on some work stuff"... I sympathized for him that he was having "one of those weeks where work stuff is still going on at 8pm on a weeknight." He explained a little more about what was going on with work then went to his den for awhile. Then he spent some time sitting on the floor petting the cat that loves him most and watching son play a video game. We talked a little about Christmas gift ideas and getting a tree (he proposed just going to Home Depot and getting one wrapped in netting for $20). I mentioned that those can be kind of a gamble sometimes, you don't know if you are getting a good one until you open it up. He said that was part of the fun of it. I said that might be true, but son and I kind of enjoy the process of going to the nursery and drinking hot apple cider and picking one out. H said he didn't want to spend $70 on a tree this year. I said we only got a $70 tree once, and I think he was in on that decision... that the ones we usually get are $30 - 40 I think. He said that was more reasonable. H took a shower and changed and then ate cookies and milk before he left. I did get a hug before he left, he squeezed me tight and it felt nice.

[LoisB]

Tiger,

Sounds like you are getting better at the whole detaching thing. I just posted some wise words on detaching written by LaBug a few years ago. Very clearcut and helpful.

As for the therapist. If you sense this therapist is moving you in a certain direction that you aren't comfortable with, maybe rethink seeing this therapist.

Or, let the therapist know that you aren't making any big decisions right now about ending the relationship. YOu want to work on yourself and get stronger. Be clear about your goals.

Also, I don't think talks with H about the therapy session are going to serve any good purpose right now. He is not the guy to reveal your deepest most vulnerable thoughts right now. I thought it was kinda telling and kinda funny how you were trying to talk to him about Grown Up stuff and he had to go Skating!! I think that says it all.

It's sad, it suckkkks, it's terribly unfair and I could go on and on. His mind is that of a boy right now and you are expecting him to be able to have very grown up conversations about very grown up stuff.

Did you call an attorney yet? Free consults. Start checking info on the Internet. Ooooooorrrrr, even post legal questions here.

Forgive me if you have already, I didn't have time to read all of your current posts. I just keep thinking that you have so many unanswered questions about your rights and your son's rights in all this.

Love to you,

Heather