Look what the cat dragged in! (TL)

[Ambivalent]

Pud,

That is exactly what it is about! Also your observation is spot on the DB/DR way. Our attitude plays a huge role.

Whether we engage or not when they have a tantrum is also a major factor of how or if we will reconnect.

In the back of my mind, I keep hearing..." Does this bring me closer or push me farther from my goal or the person in front of me? "

When he's present I try to focus on the PMA, when I need to detach I focus on what I want different from a future relationship.

I try and do what I do with my oldest daughter...she is who she is and I no longer need to engage. I can just listen and validate.

I am expecting a withdrawal after today, and my plan is to keep silent until maybe the 3rd or 4th, then discuss Christmas budgeting.

Unless of course he needs the SUV.

Tiger,

You are doing fantastic with the boundaries! Your sense of humor will take you all the way through this. Affirmation, admiration , and respect. AAR. This is what I try and remember when engaging with the Experimenter. He feels like he has failed and I'm not letting someone who doesn't know his past build up more than I can.

I am not going to be a reminder of where he failed, I am going to affirm he once made an awesome choice in me! That I see what is still in there somewhere and I appreciate that person.

We shall all overcome!

Happy Thanksgiving

[BrightFuture]

Tiger, just caught up on your thread. From how you describe your H, I picture a careless teenager who is trying to figure out “what I’m going to be when I grow up”. When I read about the rating of OW as 6 or 7, I thought of a book I read last year. I don’t remember the name of it, I need to find it on my computer (e-book). It was talking about how men rate the gifts, but I think it applies to other things in life too. According to the book, men assign a certain value to things. It is either that or nothing. The good thing here is that OW is not at 10, so she is not “it”. The rating could not go up, it could only go down when the real life starts to happen and when the “holiday lights” will start to deem.

Your H reminds me of some things my H said and did. He said that I was the best thing that happened to him in life (so far, I guess), but then he told me that we drifted apart and didn’t have much in common. When I asked what we didn’t have in common, he had a hard time explaining. One of the things he said that I didn’t like to go the bars and concerts. Then he hesitated a bit after mentioning concerts, and said that “oh, no it is not exactly like that”. And I always went to the bars with him wherever we traveled. The only bar I didn’t like was the one in Mexico where the smoking was so bad that I could not breath sometimes and it triggered my migraines. Then from some other evidence I had about him and potential OW (Mexican girl) I made a conclusion that he wanted an easy going drinking body in the skirt. It is just like for your H with skating and finding somebody who likes to do it.

Tiger, I’ve reading your updates and I’m impressed how well you are handling this. You are right to set your boundaries about sex. I don’t think that some comments about him getting a mediocre sex at OW’s hurt your case that much, as long as you stay calm and stand your ground.

Hope you are having a wonderful Thanksgiving.

[tigerlily78]

Thank you all for your thoughts. I broke/wrecked Thanksgiving. It was literally a disaster.

H and son were playing their game together, I told son when they finished a round NOT to play again, dinner would be ready in 20 minutes. He relays the message in the game to H. H ignores this, starts a new round.

So I finish the food, tell son "The food is ready now" he relays the message to H, who replies "So I guess we are eating now..." Yes, we reply.

Another 10 minutes or more after that I send son upstairs to ask if he is going to come down and eat with us. "yes" he says. ANOTHER 5 minutes. I have dished up son and he is already 80% done eating at this point.

H FINALLY comes downstairs and is dicking around with his phone. I lost all sense of calm. We waited for him already and then he has the nerve to bring the phone with?

I say, "Please don't screw with your phone right now. That's really rude." He says, "You don't even know what I'm doing." I say, "I have a pretty good idea, if you wanted to spend the day with HER then you should have." We already waited around for you, son is almost done eating... do you even care?

He says, "Don't assume you know what I'm doing! I am working on my phone." I say, "Don't bullshit me, no one at your work is working today, you have nothing you need to do on your phone for work." He says "I'm working on my own project. You don't even know what I use my phone for. Why do you have to be such a bitch? I was coming down here to eat with you guys. You didn't even dish me up yet." I say, "I didn't dish you up yet because you are an adult and I expected you to come dish yourself up so I didn't force you to eat more than you wanted." He gets all defensive and pissy and takes the plate I dished up for myself and takes it upstairs to eat.

We had some other shouting matches through the door, but that was about it. He also played more of the online game with son.

All I wanted was for him to come downstairs reasonably quickly and be present in the moment, was that too much to ask?

It makes no sense that he quit the game when I said dinner was ready and then decided to start pissing around with whatever on his phone. It does not make sense. Even if I was wrong about WHAT he was doing, bringing that phone down to dinner is freakin rude and disrespectful. The phone is one of the most obvious symbols of his relationship with OW.

20 minutes without the phone, is that really so much to ask? GRRR.

[tigerlily78]

I think the nicer mlc'ers are hard to figure out. They keep being courteous, but yet not. Like it is all ok what they are doing.

I really think it is all about the respect and admiration. They want to know they have our respect. Remember when we were first married how we treated them? a LOT nicer I'm sure.

It's hard to be gracious when we feel so hurt and they are not respecting our feelings. I still am not there. Working on it. I try to do this by starting small and seeing if it improves anything between H and I. Just a thought.

They sure are. Although I don't feel like mine is even "nice" half the time. It is more like indifferent. How can you be SO indifferent while intentionally breaking someone's heart and shitting on their dreams of the future, and then drop hints that maybe in the future you will feel differently, you might even be feeling a little different already, but NOT enough to stop the hurtful behavior. :P

[tigerlily78]

Tiger, just caught up on your thread. From how you describe your H, I picture a careless teenager who is trying to figure out “what I’m going to be when I grow up”. When I read about the rating of OW as 6 or 7, I thought of a book I read last year. I don’t remember the name of it, I need to find it on my computer (e-book). It was talking about how men rate the gifts, but I think it applies to other things in life too. According to the book, men assign a certain value to things. It is either that or nothing. The good thing here is that OW is not at 10, so she is not “it”. The rating could not go up, it could only go down when the real life starts to happen and when the “holiday lights” will start to deem.

I hope you are right Bright about the shine wearing off. I think in the first few weeks he actually DID think she was a 10. Maybe now that is getting tempered, but I feel like he will be so resistant to admitting he made a mistake and was wrong, that he will stay invested in this new R until it is zero. And maybe it will never reach zero.

I also worry he picked an OW with enough of her own mental issues and lack of responsibility that they can probably ride the crazy train for quite awhile before noticing reality. I mean, as far as I can tell she has never even cooked him a meal, they ALWAYS eat out. Well gee, if I NEVER had to cook a meal or wash a dish I'd probably have a lot more energy to put into my relationship too. We could just chat at dinner staring into each other's eyes for hours on end and no one would have to get up to do the clean up. :P Who knows, she could also learn how to be better in bed and boost her score. I almost think the 6 - 7 rating is "she's still perfect, except crummy in bed" thinking on his part.

I just wish ONE time he would apologize for anything since the whispered, "I'm sorry for everything." Which happened in bed, and the everything he is sorry for must be different things than the running off with another woman. I guess I should have asked for clarification.

I keep apologizing for my role in our various arguments. He never takes any accountability for his side of things. It's like he can't even admit that under the circumstances I am actually behaving pretty much as one would expect or BETTER... don't I have some pretty decent reasons to be pissed off?

[tigerlily78]

You are doing fantastic with the boundaries! Your sense of humor will take you all the way through this. Affirmation, admiration , and respect. AAR. This is what I try and remember when engaging with the Experimenter. He feels like he has failed and I'm not letting someone who doesn't know his past build up more than I can.

I am not going to be a reminder of where he failed, I am going to affirm he once made an awesome choice in me! That I see what is still in there somewhere and I appreciate that person.

We shall all overcome!

Happy Thanksgiving

Thank you Ambi. Can someone please duct tape my mouth shut and tattoo this on my arms? I don't feel like I am doing well at all right now. I keep falling for the traps. I keep getting angry when he is just being "Mr. Cool and Calm going about his normal business of doing things (that are shitty and disrespectful at a base level and anyone else would recognize it)".

Tomorrow is a new day. I wish I could wipe his memory about today.

[Whiterose]

Oh tl. I'm sorry it ended up in a fight. Holidays are hard at the best of times and adding an MLCer into can send things boiling over.

Just step back, forgive yourself, and know tomorrow is a new day. you've been doing really well and don't let this one thing ruin the work you've been doing.

Take cAre

[job]

tiger,
I'm sorry about the dinner. However, one thing that I have learned and that is....never to wait on them. Your son had come upstairs and since your h was still downstairs and was not making a move to join you, then you had every right to go ahead w/the meal. I know, you wanted him at the table when the meal began, but it's difficult getting an adult teenager away from gaming as well as his/her phone.

Yes, you had a heated discussion...it's waters under the bridge now. He knows how you feel about the phone, etc. In the future, don't wait on him for anything...he's passive aggressive and they will test your patience each and every time. The sooner he realizes that he is not a king w/subjects waiting w/abated breath for his arrival, the sooner he'll start to shape up in some areas.

Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and continue as you have been. Today is a new day!

[tigerlily78]

Thanks job and everyone for your understanding. It is nice to be reminded I am *not* out of my mind (yet). And today WAS a new day, it went much better than expected. Will have to wait until later to update.

[tigerlily78]

H came home much earlier this morning than I expected, especially after our dreadful Thanksgiving. I thought he might wait around until the afternoon to show up if he came at all.

I got up briefly this morning and scooped the litter box and adjusted the temp in the house. Noticed the car was here so I stopped by his den and told him I was going back to bed, he was welcome to join me if he wanted.

Only took a minute for him to show up in bed. Spooning for all of 30 seconds, he was immediately aroused. (good to know I still have that effect) He asked if he could do "favors" for me again. I told him it was a tempting offer, but I just wanted him to hold me, that I really was happy now just to have him in the bed with me. He was very touchy, clearly pushing boundaries. I kept reminding him that there is a limit to what I want to do right now under the circumstances.

He told me another favor he wanted. I told him we all want things, but that doesn't mean we get them. He told me to tell him some of the things I want, so I listed some things I want. (To see him smile, to spend quality time with him in the light of day where I can see his handsome face, to maybe go out together once in awhile, to be able to have a conversation for once that doesn't turn into an argument, to share the bed with him more often, and "a lot of other things that aren't so simple"). He tells me he wants those things too, and has even asked to do a few of them, but I keep getting angry or saying something rude and then he doesn't feel like it anymore. I tell him I know, I need to keep working on getting my anger under control. I don't want to let my anger get the best of me, but I do feel like I have some very good reasons to be angry right now. I asked if he thought that was true. He agreed, I have legitimate reasons to be angry.

I didn't want the conversation to keep going that direction, so I told him I feel like I am losing and missing out on so many things I used to take for granted. And I listed a lot of things. He was quiet. I asked, so you said the other day you sometimes miss me. What do you miss or like about me? He launched into a list of things that were all blatantly sexual/physical in nature. I said, "I dare you to list 3 things that are non-sexual." He lists several more things of a sexual nature. I said, those are all obviously sexual. You haven't fulfilled the dare. So he says he misses my intelligence, my sense of humor, and the way I can get things done without his help.

I tell him I don't feel like I have had much of a chance to be funny or smart when he is around lately. He ignores this and brings the conversation back around to how much he misses and wants this certain favor. He says "What can I give you that you want, so you will give me what I want?" I laughed quietly and told him I don't negotiate with terrorists. He laughs too and then is quiet for a minute. Then he says he does feel bad about treating me badly, that he wishes it didn't have to hurt me so much to do what he is doing. I say, "I wish it didn't have to hurt me too, but it does."

Silence for a minute, then I ask why he still wants to be with me in the bed, for cuddling and "other things". He admits, "because it is so comfortable. Sex with ow isn't terrible, it isn't even her that's the problem, it's me. I just don't feel comfortable with her like I do with you."

So I ask, isn't it possible you just want to be with me as a filler until you feel more comfortable with her? I don't think that is a fair position to put me in.

He says he doesn't know. He just knows that being with me is comfortable and he wants it. He doesn't know if he will ever get comfortable with her, how can he know?

I ask if he remembers being uncomfortable with me for a long time in the beginning, and that if he was I never noticed it. He says he doesn't remember if he was. He just knows that he feels so comfortable with me now and has for such a long time. He doesn't remember it ever not being like this.

I tell him I am really comfortable with him too, physically. I wish I didn't feel like I have to be so emotionally guarded now.

He brings the discussion back to wants. What can he give me that will earn him the favor. He throws some things out there, "We could go out for breakfast, we could go do some shopping together, we could take a shower together, we could watch a movie this afternoon."

I tell him I don't want to trade favors like it's a business transaction... "I don't want the Pretty Woman treatment." That I do things that I do for him for the sake of making him happy and showing that I care. And that normally I really like doing *that* favor for him, that I like bringing him that level of pleasure just for the sake of giving it. I explain that I want him to do things for me for the same reason, because he wants to give me happiness or show he cares, not because it is required. Not because I negotiated for it.

I say that today I want to show him that I care, and that it probably can't hurt my case to remind him how good I am at this favor, and what he could be missing out on one day. I tell him all I really expect is to be treated with basic respect and friendship, and if he wants to give me anything above that it will be for him to decide.

So I do the favor. I can tell it was very pleasurable, like maybe "top 10 ever" pleasurable. I would say based on my observations that he really has NOT been having a fully satisfying experience elsewhere. That part seems to be true. He says it was AMAZING and thanks me. He lays smiling at me for a minute enjoying the moment. I enjoy watching him.

We do end up in the shower together. I reach over and touch him a few times affectionately as a matter of natural body language while we are talking, but the shower is mostly just the two of us facing each other and talking while we bathe.

I mention that the other day he said he has "a plan." I was wondering if he wanted to share the plan with me. "The plan" turns out to be "not a plan" in my book, but I don't say that. His plan is to "take things a day at a time and just feel things out until I understand what I am feeling and can make a decision." I smile and say, "For some reason, knowing you, I expected the plan to be a lot more detailed." I say, "Well, I don't really want to look too far down the road either, I was worried you might tell me you have a plan for moving out." He says he doesn't want that right now, that he isn't planning for it. He asks if it's what I want. I tell him right now it isn't really what I want, but I also won't live forever with things like they are right now. It's just too hard. I can do it for awhile, but there is a limit. He says having his den is really important to him right now, that he needs that space where he can just be alone and not bothered by anybody. I ask, "can't you have that same experience at ow's while she is at work?" He says it isn't the same. He likes a space that is JUST his, that is comfortable and nice, that he can't relax there like he can in his den. I repeat that I understand having his den to relax in is important to him, that I am sorry I have tried to push my way into that space recently when he didn't want me there.

I say, "Do you remember how you told me OW is a 6 or a 7? I say, "So, do you think I was ever a 6 or a 7? Or higher?" He says, "Yes, definitely you have been a 7 and higher, and when we first moved here I think you were much higher. I was feeling really good about things then." I nod and repeat, "So I was definitely a 7 or higher sometimes. That's nice to know. I am kind of worried that maybe you won't feel like you can dump her unless she reaches zero, since you have risked so much to be with her. Do you think that's the case?" He says no, he thinks that it would only take a 4 for him to decide he didn't want to be with her. And if he broke up with her he thinks he probably wouldn't feel like being in a relationship with anyone for awhile, but that it would make sense for him to be in a relationship with me."

I ask why he doesn't think he'd want to be in a relationship with anyone. He says he feels like no one understands how hard this situation is for him. That he thought that he would feel better because of this, that in the beginning he thought we would all be better off because of it. Now he sees that a lot of things are worse. It seems to be worse for him than he thought it would be, worse on me, worse on our son, only OW has it better. (OMG! Is that some clarity?!! Or is he just reading all the same websites I do?)

I validate that I know the situation puts a lot of pressure on him and that things haven't gone quite the way he thought they would. That I know it isn't easy for him either.

I tell him I am going to get out of the shower at this point, that he can finish up and I am going to go make us breakfast. It was 11am by this time, I could hear his stomach growling and he mentioned being famished several times.

Later in the day he went out to "do some shopping." He had mentioned several stores he planned to go to, came back an hour later and he had only been to Home Depot, which is literally 10 minutes from our house. He came home with a new lock for his den door (okay, so his take away seemed to be "I don't want people coming into my den when I don't want them to"). He tells me "Do you like Poinsettias? Are those poisonous for the cats?" I tell him I think Poinsettias are lovely, and yes they can be bad for the cats if they eat them. He asks if I would want one, that Home Depot has them on sale for 99cents today. I said, that would be very nice. I know just where I could put it, up here on the cookbook shelf. He asks, "How many would you want?" I say, one or maybe two. If I move this thing on the shelf there is room for two and the cats can't get them.

He goes out to the car and brings in a Poinsettia. I laugh and tell him thank you, it's really very nice. I put it on the shelf and it looks great. An hour or two later he goes out to the car and brings in a second plant. He says, "I hope you don't mind, I bought one for me too. I will keep it in my den." I say I don't mind at all. Then another hour later he brings in a third plant. He says, "Don't be mad, I bought one for my friend too." I tell him its okay, I am just happy he thought of me too... that I suspect maybe he was thinking of her when he decided to buy one, but that he decided to get me one was thoughtful. He says, "I was thinking of all three of us when I bought them, remember I got myself one too."

Later while he was getting ready to go tonight he called out to me for help several times. "I can't find ____." I told him each time where I thought _____ was and to let me know if he needed more help. He didn't need more help, he eventually found what he was looking for and let me know he was successful. I told him I was glad he found what he was looking for and left it at that.

He also told me he brought his beard trimmer home to trim his beard some. I laughed and asked if he was going to get in trouble for that. He said he didn't care, he was going to trim it because it was getting to be too much and he didn't like how it feels, but that he DID bring the trimmer here so he could do it without anyone telling him differently. (ha) So he did trim the beard so it is more like the scruffy handsome dad look again. He thought he trimmed it a little too much, but I told him I still liked this look better than the full beard, and that in a few days it would be more the length he wants anyways.

So everyone update your beardometers!!

I got a hug before he left. He reminded me that he will be gone, probably until Sunday. That he hoped he would be home Sunday but he didn't know yet what the plans were, he hoped the weekend wouldn't be so busy that he couldn't come home Sunday for awhile.

Today was a complete 180 from Thanksgiving. I am thankful for the change! If you managed to read this far then I am thankful for your giant attention span and interest too.