Becoming PatientMan IV - It Is Well With My Soul

[PatientMan]

Well, given the overwhelming offers of advice and perspective , I'm just going to keep doing my thing.

I have family coming in for Thanksgiving and it's my first opportunity to host a social occasion without my wife. Parents coming in, sister coming in, kids excited, and a happy PatientMan to accommodate.

Life is good. God is good.

All the best to all of you. Endure well!

-PM

[willbwell]

PM,Hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving. h will not be joining us this year. me and the kids and quite honestly, I am looking forward to it.

What are you studying? I too have a paper due. Almost done!

[PatientMan]

What are you studying? I too have a paper due. Almost done!

I am finishing up a double major at a top-5 MBA program (one exam remains one week from today). BD date for me was two months prior to starting grad school.

Thanks for asking and I wish you well on your paper and progress!

Happy Thanksgiving to you as well! Religious beliefs aside, it's my favorite holiday.

-PM

[labug]

I realize she may be reaching out to me and perhaps my rejection of that request will have negative results down the line. However, like a drug addict, I don't want to be a quick fix that makes her feel better in the moment, but doesn't fix her long term issue.

Only she can fix her long term issue.

If you're not going to visit because it's a boundary to protect you, more power to you.

This sounds like you deciding what's best for her.

[AnotherStander]

I realize she may be reaching out to me and perhaps my rejection of that request will have negative results down the line. However, like a drug addict, I don't want to be a quick fix that makes her feel better in the moment, but doesn't fix her long term issue.

Does that make sense?

Yes, it does. You know your sitch better than we do and it's up to you to make that call. But like I said before, don't turn down ALL offers. Because if you do, at some point she'll quit offering.

AS, thanks for your post and holding me accountable.

Well I wasn't trying to hold you accountable, it was an honest question, I didn't understand from reading the post what your reasons were

[PatientMan]

Welcome back to the wonderful world of PatientMan's verbosity. I have a story to tell, and like all of yours the dynamics of it are extremely complex and complicated. Thanks in advance for anyone who makes it all the way through.

I realize she may be reaching out to me and perhaps my rejection of that request will have negative results down the line. However, like a drug addict, I don't want to be a quick fix that makes her feel better in the moment, but doesn't fix her long term issue.

Only she can fix her long term issue.

True, but I don't want to be an enabler. I don't want to make things worse for her, and I've watched the torture she puts herself through post-these enabling events.

If you're not going to visit because it's a boundary to protect you, more power to you.

This sounds like you deciding what's best for her.

I need to protect myself more, but I have not decided on a clear set of boundaries for me. Maybe I need more concrete boundaries now that we are divorced (as I've posted about addressing a few times, but haven't actually addressed), but because I am "standing" maybe I don't need a concrete set of boundaries and - as AS points out in his post - I need to accept SOME requests or they're going to stop altogether.

But then I get to thinking, maybe those requests should stop altogether - at least for a while. Yes, I am standing, but yes, we are divorced and I shouldn't be her cake - that as much as I would like to be there for her and make her feel better (which I haven't verbalized in a LONG time), she and I both need to feel the effects of being divorced. NOT to punish her in any way, but just to accept the reality that is. Ex-spouses aren't the first people to contact for support and help...right?

What our current reality is, though the divorce was final almost 6 months ago, is that we still seem to be very much in a state of limbo minus an enormous amount of pressure, though I am far more detached than before. I feel we need to break the cycle of dependency, though I believe I am much further along in this regard than she. I do think the divorce facilitated the removal of pressure in our limbo state, and perhaps this will end up being a positive event in our story.

**taking a breath**

So many things to think about, I just need to figure out what I believe the "right" approach is - boundary-wise - (for *me* and my goals, not trying to manipulate an end result) and let that guide me.

I know I want to help her. I know I like spending time with her. I know I would eventually like to R. I know right now I want to call her up and tell her that I'm tired of being divorced and a part-time dad. But of course, I won't. Those are just some of the thoughts *I* have when *I'm* having weak moments.

But whenever I feel like that I STOP feeling like that and start feeling AWESOME instead. True story.

---

Back to the story of Sunday night, she called me up and invited me over that evening around 7 or 8pm, and she had communicated to me several times during the day that she was having a tough time (her possibly implying she wanted my help/presence, but since I try to minimize mind-reading anymore I just listened and validated throughout the day).

Her personality and the dynamic of our relationship for as long as we've known each other is that she'll mention a problem and I'll fix it. She doesn't typically ask explicitly for something to be done.

I don't want to paint the picture that she said "jump" and I would ask "how high?", it was just how we operated.

"One of the kitchen lights is out" is an implied statement of "will you please fix it?" And I would fix whatever needs fixing without a word as soon as I had the time.

It's just how I feel most comfortable showing love for others: doing things for them. And when she noticed she always came back later and thanked me for fixing whatever needed fixed. I would never ask for them, but she knows I like my neck rubbed and she would do little stuff like that for me in return. It just seemed like an unspoken, yet communication dynamic we enjoyed that I'm sure most couples have as well.

I haven't read the 5LL book (I bought it, and once school is over I have a large stack of books to read), but I like physical touch from her and I like to show love by doing acts of service. I need to figure out what *her* LL's are too, so I can be more cognizant of what she is looking for.

But since the divorce, I've backed off of responding to me "reading" her and fixing things. She consistently pursued and followed through with divorcing me, so I have to take that as a signal that my services are no longer needed/wanted. As she has steadfastly stated over the last two years, she needs to be "okay on her own." So when she wants my help in the moment (the quick fix/feel better), I don't feel like I'm helping her become "okay on her own" - her consistently stated long term goal.

So yes, in a way I am deciding "what's best for her", but it's really based on the two options she has given me: feel better now and perpetuate her depression, unhappiness, and unresolved problems, or help her be okay on her own - as much as that hurts to have the connection severed from my end (more on that later as it's something I've been meaning to address and ask opinions on, but in another post, I promise ).

And maybe that's me deciding what is best for her (and maybe you have thoughts on this given the broader context I have provided), but I feel like I am complying with her requests when she is showing weakness...that I AM helping her reach her goals.

And when she is healthier and in a better place, she can then assess what she truly wants out of life. Maybe that will be me, maybe not. But I love her, she is the mother of my children, and I want her to be happy and the best version of herself that she can be.

I feel like I am loving her by helping her get there. And as much as I realize I like her dependency on me as it keeps that connection between us, I don't believe that it's me loving her in the best way possible.

An interesting question I was asked by my T recently was: How can she ever be okay without you if she is never without you?

And another interesting point the T made about welcoming the spouse's emotions and being guarded with your own strategy, is that it is a form of cake-eating. She gets to unload/vent all of her issues and struggles to me, and doesn't have to deal with any of my own.

And a light bulb went off over my head because those make a lot of sense and I hadn't thought of those two perspectives.

---

So that Sunday she was hinting about how her day was tough, and I listened and validated the several times she opened up. When she flat out asked me if I'd like to come up there and write my paper, I must admit I was a bit take aback given she doesn't typically ask for things directly...she wants me to "read" her and respond (as I previously described).

But I turned the offer down. I really wanted to go (I still love spending time with her and she is still probably my best friend), but I don't want to be cake, and I do want to help her reach her long term goals. I love her and care for her and, yes, make decisions based on what I think is best for both her and me and the kids.

I've seen the turmoil she puts herself through when she has a "weak" moment, asks me over for support, and then just beats herself up so harshly for it. I don't want to contribute to that, but perhaps you are right and that is not my call to make. Maybe she needs to keep making those mistakes and come to a realization on her own.

Thoughts?

-PM

[PatientMan]

I realize she may be reaching out to me and perhaps my rejection of that request will have negative results down the line. However, like a drug addict, I don't want to be a quick fix that makes her feel better in the moment, but doesn't fix her long term issue.

Does that make sense?

Yes, it does. You know your sitch better than we do and it's up to you to make that call. But like I said before, don't turn down ALL offers. Because if you do, at some point she'll quit offering.

Good point. Noted.

It's interesting navigating the choppy waters of being a divorced stander. Are we supposed to "act" like a divorced couple? Neither one of us is truly moving on.

Tough questions that I know nobody here has the perfect answer to, just thinking out loud and trying to gather some different perspectives from people in similar situations.

I want her to get to a happy, healthy mental and emotional place where she is not dependent upon me. When she gets to that point in her life I would love for her to look at her life and choose me, but I don't want her to choose me out of dependency.

I want to do this right, and that means she has to get healthy, happy, and independent so she can make a clear decision for herself.

AS, thanks for your post and holding me accountable.

Well I wasn't trying to hold you accountable, it was an honest question, I didn't understand from reading the post what your reasons were

By asking you did make me really think about what my reasons were for declining and that those reasons should be valid and loving. Always encouraging to be reminded of why we make the decisions we make.

So thanks!

-PM

[PatientMan]

Also,

I invited XW to Thanksgiving dinner tomorrow. She says she will stop by to say "hi" to my parents and my sister, but doesn't have any intention of staying for the meal. She intimated that the old house brings back bad memories. My wise older sister thinks it's events like these - family ones with the kids gone - that may have an impact on her perspective.

XW also invited me to spend the night on Christmas Eve so we could all spend time together and wake up on Christmas morning together. Her dad and her brother are coming into town.

Once school for me is out in a week, we are going to start alternating weekends with who has the girls, but she'll still bring them to me on Sunday mornings of her weekends so the girls and I can go to church. Also thinking about a M/W/F visitation schedule where I head up to her house after work to spend time with them (homework, devotions, maybe a game of chess with my 10 year old, tuck-in & prayers.)

I've been running myself far past capacity for the last two years trying to earn this graduate degree, while going through a long, drawn out divorce, while working on improving myself, combating 18 months of depression, while trying to minimize the impact this is having on my children. So XW and I agree that standardizing some visitation schedules will help us both.

She'll feel less like a single mom and I'll feel more like I'm providing a home for my ladies.

A big problem I have is a no-win mental situation I put myself in:

If I take some time for myself, I impose upon myself guilt for not spending time with my girls. And if I spend all of my spare time with my girls, I don't take time for myself or get projects done around the house.

So either way I lose: mentally. And it's a hurdle I'm trying to get over. I know intellectually that I have to take time for myself, but I just want to be with my daughters as much as possible and I can't seem to escape the guilt I inflict upon myself if I don't.

Any thoughts on visitation and holiday arrangements? It seems pretty amicable, but is it too amicable? Should we be separating households more?

-PM

[PatientMan]

Going through my timeline of this month:

• Nov. 4: XW hits bottom of the barrel
• Nov. 15: "XW was clingy this evening."
• Nov. 17: "Interesting conversation."
• Nov. 20: "XW keeps saying she misses me."
• Nov. 25: "XW called and asked if I wanted to write my paper up there at her house"

There certainly appears to be a trend, but it could be in response to her "hitting bottom." I am adamant that I want her to be 100% sure she is ready to try again before we do try again.

Am I reading to much into this? Or am I missing the obvious and should take the lead?

I have held firm that since it was her decision to divorce, it needed to be her decision to let me know if she wanted to try. That goes against my instincts (especially given the trend), but putting the ball in her court seems to make sense, and it also creates an aura of mystery about me and my own feelings.

Lots of typing/sharing today. Thanks for reading/helping me think things through.

-PM

[melissag]

PM . . . you have given me a lot of great advice, on my own thread and others. As you know, I am new at this whole thing, and I also only know the most recent events in your sitch.

However, if I may offer up a few thoughts . . . .

(1) I'm not sure I buy into this whole detachment/independence thing. I have seen posts here and there saying that in any healthy M, one should be detached from his/her spouse. I can't disagree with that more. If you are supposed to treat your spouse with the same emotional attachment as a neighbor, what is the point of getting married? Now, I am not saying that codependency is a good thing in a high degree, but the whole point of marriage is that people want and yes, need, each other. Not in a "I'm going to kill myself if you go out without me' way, but in the sense that his/her spouse's love, affection, commitment and support is extremely important. I was thinking the same thing your T asked, and then one step further. How will you ever know your W is independent if you are always around; and then, if she is fully independent, how do you fit into her life? To me, to be completely detached/independent/okay without the other, means you are over that person. And then there is nothing left.

(2) I noticed the same trend you did. She seems to be more and more interested in spending time with you. It's not just a one-time, I've had a bad day, kind of thing. And while I don't know your W, or the extent of her codependency, I would say that at some point, you need to take what she says at face value. You are reading into what she is saying, instead of just accepting that maybe, MAYBE she really does just want to spend time with you. I can see why you would set emotional boundaries for yourself, but I am not sure what you are waiting for from her. Do you want her to BEG? Does she have to say she is 100% committed to working things out, and wants to R and get remarried and love you forever? All she is asking is for you to go write at her house. Can you do that and see where it goes and what it feels like? I can 100% understand your fear around this - I mean, you have been managing your expectations for so long, and have achieved so much detachment - but is that how you want to stay forever? If you want to R, then at some point you do need to accept her invitation, right?

I don't know - I guess I find it painful to read your posts sometimes because it seems that you are almost fighting it more than your W is. It makes me think of movies where the two lovers aren't together and are both miserable because of it . . . it makes no sense. That may be an exaggeration here - we don't really know what your W is thinking, or where this will go. But to let it go somewhere, anywhere, you have to put yourself out there.

Just my $.02.