The Big Hill

[beatrice]

The danger is that sometimes when women communicate this, they do it in a way that makes us feel defensive.

I really liked your post, but I just want to pick up on this.

I accept that the way that women communicate can cause you to feel defensive, but that is your response. The woman didn't make you respond in this way.

Women need to take responsibility for how they express things, but can you see that there is a subtle shift of blame here, probably unintentional?

[Dragon Heart]

The danger is that sometimes when women communicate this, they do it in a way that makes us feel defensive.

I really liked your post, but I just want to pick up on this.

I accept that the way that women communicate can cause you to feel defensive, but that is your response. The woman didn't make you respond in this way.

Women need to take responsibility for how they express things, but can you see that there is a subtle shift of blame here, probably unintentional?

I can see how it might have come across that way. It wasn't intended as blame, just something I have acknowledged about myself and need to watch out for. I see male friends and colleagues who tend to respond the same way. Part of the cycle we need to break out of.

I have heard many women comment on a man's "tone of voice" (mine included). Generally speaking, we do not intend this subtlety and are not aware of how our tone of voice is perceived. My comment about responding defensively to statements made by women was along the same lines.

[tigerlily78]

Hey Pud. I was without internet for a couple days so I am just getting caught up. I am so glad the date went well.

Good work on making a hot button conversation like bills turn out to be positive. That is impressive.

So glad that you had some more positive interactions, sounds like things are still going in a good direction for you and I am so happy.

[Pudmuddle]

Hi BF, dragon :), bea, and tiger.

Things were going in a good direction, I was going up the rollercoaster so it is only natural here that I start going down...

I was feeling so hopeless, believe it or not, with things at times feels SO normal. I needed to see where we stood at this point and time.

It kind of started when he had mentioned the other night how he thought I was really changing into a better person. So I thought about that all night and then had to ask about it this morning. I said 'So you said that you think I have become a better person, what about you, have YOU become a better person?' He said 'Well I am working through things and I haven't done the deep soul-searching that you have done with all those marriage tapes.' I said well it's not just those but I have done lots of things to help me feel better about myself.

He then asked if I'd hear from his bro on Tgiving, and I said no it was strange that I haven't heard from any of your family on this. He said his bro texted him and it would be at his bro's gf's house and there was a list of things to bring. I said 'oh I didn't get that one.' He said 'I didn't know if you wanted to go.' I said 'Why wouldn't I want to go?' I still love his family and we all get along, even in this time. I then said'So are you going to be there?' He then said he would 'meet us there'. He is going to Floormop's house before that...me, not very happy.

I asked him if knew how embarrassing and humiliating it is to me when I am out somewhere (like at kickboxing or his parents for thanksgiving) and I have people ask me where he is? I told him that's why I stopped going to kickboxing. He said' well you don't have to say where I am'. I said 'That would be a lie then'. He was shocked at this. seriously.

He was also leaving today to go watch football with her and her friends. I said to him' don't you feel fake around them? Knowing that you're married and you have a loving wife and son at home?' he said 'no I don't' quietly . I know I shouldn't have said that but I am tired of him going out. I asked him twice to Please don't go. The last time he tried to be angry, but he is not good at being angry with me, lol, and he said I AM going, but still sounded like a softie saying it, and he hugged me.

I told him that secrecy and lies have no place in a marriage, nor does it have room for a 3rd person. I'm tired of this fake marriage. I then asked him how often he saw her because he is at home most of the time. he said 'here and there'. My thought was well that sounds like a real relationship, not.

I also asked him if he remembered asking me about something (which I can't remember what is is now either) and he said 'no, I can't seem to remember much these days.' I said 'Yeah, you're in that fog.' He agreed.

I said'Well when I asked you to lie to me about all this and you didn't show the moral center or self-esteem in yourself to stand and say no I won't and I won't do this anymore, I knew you were lost.' I know that wasn't the nicest thing to say to him, but it is how I felt.

We talked about the past 6 years ago when we were separated and both seeing other people. He brought up that he was hurt that I had to go back and finish up a relationship with the guy I was seeing, so that was why he started an EA with a girl at his work. I told him 'well you got to finish up your first affair, so why shouldn't I be allowed to finish mine?' He said he never finished it he just walked out on her and didn't contact her again. I said 'do you remember that you wrote her a letter? and then she called and threatened to come over to your house?' 'It sounds to me like you got a chance to finish it.' He said 'No I don't remember that.' I told him the EA he started after breaking up with PA really hurt. I told him it seems like he does all these things in reaction to things I have done, almost making it like revenge. He said Yeah maybe I do. So I said 'well why is it fair for you to do these things and not me?' He said he didn't know.

I told him I never meant to hurt him as bad as I did. I told him the depression this time contributed greatly to the demise of our marriage. He had a hard time understanding my deep depression and thinks I purposely avoided him, rejected sex or doing things with the family. He took it very personal. So today I said I never meant to do any of that personally and it was the disease. After I said I had to make excuses for him when he was not present at kickboxing or family events, he said well I had to make excuses for you when you didn't you were sick all the time. So I injected a truth dart.

I said 'I don't think it's fair of you to compare making an excuse for an illness to making an excuse for an AFFAIR.' I then said 'If I had a physical illness like cancer, would you have done the same thing and run into someone else's arms?' He quietly said 'No. I told him I never meant to hurt him with my actions from the depression, I never meant to reject him sexually and now I realize that is what I did and how hurt he felt. He says 'Well I know that now, I didn't at the time, but I do now.'

[Pudmuddle]

We talked about quite a few things and it wasn't always db. But in talking to a friend today, she said it sounds like I injected a few truth darts. Things that would maybe plant a seed in his foggy brain.

I did tell him how much unconditional love he has with me and he said 'Yes, you've made that quite clear.'

Now I just need to STFU for about a year.

[tigerlily78]

Wowzers. So is this the first time you guys have really both talked about both your affairs? Seems like maybe a little light is seeping into some dark places you both had shut away. I hope this leads to some good movement, but you should be prepared for him to overreact just in case. Depends on if he is ready for the light or if he needs to creep back into the tunnel a little further to avoid it. :P

It's such weird timing that you had this talk. When we were talking yesterday mine brought up an EA I had a long time ago (12 years ago)... "it's just like with you and what's his face." I thought it was kind of weird that he would bring up MY mistake, as rationalization for his mistake, after I have very openly and many times accepted and admitted it WAS A HUGE MISTAKE. It seems like the important morsel of the story he keeps forgetting is WHY I was weak to that circumstance (young mom, really lonely, depressed, had a stressed out and distant H), and that ultimately when the A was exposed and I needed to make a choice, I CHOSE H and never looked back. It was really that easy for me when I had to look at the situation and come to grips with what I stood to lose. I even told him very early after BD that I thought I knew how he was feeling, because I had felt the exact same way when I had my EA... but now years later I know I was deluded. I think he has convinced himself since mine was an online thing and his is a real flesh and blood person who lives in our area that somehow she is more valid and less delusion.

[tigerlily78]

You are practically a ninja of truth darts.

I think you may need to be a little careful though in putting too much emphasis on the disease as it could be seen as making an excuse, and instead focus on admitting that even with depression, you had the free will and opportunity to make other choices, you were just blind to that in the moment. We can't choose our emotions, but we can choose how to act on them or NOT act on them. And when we struggle with those emotions we need to find a way to be comfortable bringing them to our spouse or our existing support circle to get guidance and help... turning to someone outside our R just makes things more complicated, it doesn't tend to resolve the underlying feelings.

[Pudmuddle]

No this is not the first time we have talked about these affairs. We have talked about this same thing, because he has never forgiven me completely. And he admits this. He still looks at it as all my fault, when it was both of us doing the wrong thing. He also says he has not forgiven himself either. And the fact that we both and agreed last time that we would never do this, yet here he is doing it again. I think men might have a harder time forgiving for this type of thing as it is a blow to their male pride.

I only bring up the depression because he has never understood the disease and he wasn't there for me when I was going through it. I don't use it as an excuse, I just want him to understand that I was so down, in fact, depths of hell that I couldn't function as a human being and I never meant for him to think I hated him for that. He then chose to use it as an excuse to run away and to the arms of someone else, instead of choosing to help US deal with it, like I have helped him deal with past life events. It's a fine line I suppose, too.

[Pudmuddle]

I wonder why it is so hard for him to admit when I have hurt him or have been insensitive to him at the TIME that I hurt him? The reason I ask is because this seem to be a pattern with him. Say for example, something happens where I have hurt him, rejected him or let him down, at the time that we talk about it, he will accept my apology and then say we are ok. Then YEARS down the road I find out that it was never ok with him and he has never forgotten this one thing. So he uses that to act out in some way against me.

I can remember one anniversary where we were traveling and I had forgotten to get him an anniversary card and he said at the time that he was ok with that because we were traveling and busy. Then I find out 2 years later that it really bugged him. Seriously...YEARS later? Why on earth would he not tell me sooner that if really hurt his feelings. He has done this with other things. Is it part of the way a man learns to stuff their feelings down and pretend everything is alright? Confusing.

[tigerlily78]

Pud,

Mine does this too. And some of the things that he brings up as being so damaging to his self worth seem actually really silly. (like my reacting to his aggressive driving when he was practicing was somehow so damaging he never wanted to try driving again).

I think it comes from a place of insecurity, but also I think it goes back to childhood issues of feeling unwanted or unworthy... like they were looking for every excuse or opportunity to say "Aha! I knew it! You rejected me too! You hurt me too! You didn't think I was good enough either!" I think a lot of it is projection of other bigger, deeper seeded problems onto molehills.

I think they also use a lot of these things to mask their own fears and feelings on inadequacy... so in my H's case he felt somewhat frightened of driving because he knows he is something of an adrenaline junkie and loses his temper easily, that driving could be a source of problems and big expenses for us if he had an accident. But rather than admitting that and taking personal responsibility to dial back his behavior, be more cautious, address the anger management, etc ... it was easier to put the blame on ME than on himself.