wife hardens heart-6

[JayMan]

I got spanked with a variety of utensils growing up - and the key difference was never in anger. I love my parents deeply and resent nothing from them.

Spanking is a non-issue; it's the way punishment is merited. My D13 almost never got spanked; S11 got spanked 3 times a day. Both of them are closer to me than almost any dad I know.

The argument over spanking obfuscates the real issue of whether you love your children so much they can't help but see correction as a result of love. I would spank S5 very hard, then hold him and tell him what he did wrong, and what I expected; and he'd invariably walk by 5 minutes later, and say, "I love you daddy."

[PatientMan]

Physical violence is physical violence.

I disagree.

What would you do if your wife or another adult peat you?

Except we aren't talking about fully developed, mature, adult brains.

Sometimes there are physical consequences to life's decisions. Depriving a child of that is depriving them off learning a valuable life lesson.

We can agree to disagree, just don't take from this that I create an environment of violence based fear in my children. As I've described in my own thread, we have a great relationship based on them trusting that I always have their best interests in mind, so much so, for example that I've been approached with body image issues from one of my girls.

To me - dad - not mom.

Let me give you a scenario. Imagine your three year old is about to cross a busy street and will likely get hit by oncoming traffic. Do you talk to and try to rationalize with that three year old to convince them not to venture out into the street?

Not if you want her to live.

So clearly there is a time and place where physical intervention is in the best interests of the child.

Now, I have a used an extreme example to simply point out that this isn't a black and white issue. Each parent has to decide what intervention is necessary and for what reasons. (And I'm intentionally using the term "intervention" because of the negative connotation of the word "violence" you have chosen to use. )

I ABSOLUTELY do not advocate abuse or physicality out of anger, but especially with boys, young men need to be put in their place on occasion. It is a lesson I believe most men, looking back, will admit they needed to and deserved to learn. Feel free to go look up the psychology of pubescent boys and their typical testing of the father figure in the household.

I don't have any boys, but I was a teenage boy once and I've seen how boys without father figures in their lives act much differently than boys who do. As a teenage boy with hormones and a feeling of invincibility prevalent well documented in this demographic, the fear of a father is quite a useful, almost necessary tool to make a man.

Regarding younger children, I think it's imperative they learn that sometimes it's time to listen and do as they're told. There are sometimes when children need to listen NOW, no questions asked. This is rare, but it is real. And it needs to be taught, regardless of gender, but certainly tailored to gender.

I'm sure there are people and books who disagree with me, but I'm confident in my parenting decisions.

-PM

[labug]

I couldn't disagree more and mostly because of this very point: we aren't talking about fully developed, mature, adult brains.

So the brain is developing with the idea that those who love you can be violent with you and it's OK and expected.

Couch it in whatever terms you like, physical violence is physical violence and it affects the one on the receiving end in only negative ways.

This is Planet's thread and it's not a parenting forum so we should probably go back to the subject we're here to discuss, marriage.

[labug]

PM re the research on pre-pubescent boys, you'll see in my sig that I've raised 2 boys without physical violence and they're good people. I have read a lot of research.

So now, Planet, back to you. I would suggestif you want more input about raising children you should go to a forum that addresses that subject.

[PatientMan]

So the brain is developing with the idea that those who love you can be violent with you and it's OK and expected.

Yes.

Are you stating you wouldn't physically intervene with your 3 year old who is about to run out into a busy street, and forcibly hold them back for their own good? Even if they fought you to get away?

I think not.

What about if your child was about to hit another person with a baseball bat? Would you resort to tackling him/her if in that split second it was the only means to prevent the attack?

Or if your child was holding a gun and said that he or she was going to kill themselves or another. Would you wrestle that firearm away from them if they didn't respond to talking them out of it?

My guess is your answer is "yes."

And I want to point out that I am not picking a fight...that what I'm doing is taking your point of "violence is violence" to its logical extreme in order to prove that it is fallacious at its core and enforce what I previously pointed out: each of us has his or her own line where "violence" or "physical intervention" is necessary and proper.

"Violence ISN'T violence."

Unless you're willing to let your toddler run into a busy street, your kid hit another with a baseball bat, or kill themselves or another with a loaded firearm. If you truly would not physically intervene, then your argument holds water and you've got me. I think that's kooky, but you've got me and we'll agree to disagree.

Couch it in whatever terms you like, physical violence is physical violence and it affects the one on the receiving end in only negative ways.

Incorrect (as previously debunked - there is a point when physical intervention is the "best" option), and I'm wondering if you have anything other than anecdotal evidence to support your theory.

Take the example of a hot stove. You can tell a child 1,000 times not to touch a hot stove, but it only takes that child one time of touching it for the lesson to be learned.

That is not an example of "violence" (the stove did not attack the child), but it is an example of different methods of learning lessons having very different results.

PM re the research on pre-pubescent boys, you'll see in my sig that I've raised 2 boys without physical violence and they're good people. I have read a lot of research.

I want to be very clear with the next few points:

I am NOT saying you are raising/have raised your boys wrong.

I am NOT saying you it is impossible to raise boys without physically punishing them.

I am NOT saying you are a bad mother if you don't use "physical violence."

I am NOT saying that children are better off with an abusive father than no father.

But I AM saying that all children are better off with a mother-figure and a father-figure (both healthy and stable and loving). Mothers set examples for their daughters and end up impressing upon a son what that son's future wife will be like. Fathers set examples for their sons and end up impressing upon a daughter what that daughter's future husband will be like.

So I mean no insult to single parents - male or female. I applaud the hard work that goes into that job and am in true awe of those who make it through and kick a$$ at raising kids. And I say that in total honesty - I don't know how single parents do it well and some of them are my personal heroes. I'm simply saying it isn't ideal. "Ideal" being what I believe every child truly deserves: a loving mother and father joined forever in unconditional love and mutual subjection that raises them in security and peace.

Changing gears:

I DID say "pubescent"- or adolescent - boys, not pre-pubescent (sorry for the confusion as I realize I was carelessly switching between age ranges there). I was speaking to the hormones that kick in at that age (teenage years) and the need for a father-type figure to remind a young man of where his place is. Adolescent boys WILL push boundaries and get away with as much as they can - they have a LOT of testosterone running through their veins and their minds haven't developed a sense of mortality (which is documented, and why 18-22 year-olds are the best to send off to fight wars), and a father-type figure to both set a good example (priority #1) and be physically superior to them is the best way to raise that young man successfully.

And I do not say "physically superior" to mean that the man constantly beats the teenager, I say it as it is entirely healthy/normal/typical for a teenage boy to be somewhat fearful of what will happen "if dad finds out", even if the father-figure never actually has to resort to "physical violence". It's the impression imposed by the man, not any action itself. It's why the best bouncers at clubs are giant men who look like they could squeeze the life out of a man if he chooses, not necessarily the ones who would win in an MMA octagon. It's the prevention of misbehavior that the father-figure provides that is the asset.

I challenge you to gather your own anecdotal evidence on this. Go around and ask well adjusted, grown men you know about their dads. I bet they were scared to death of him when they were teenagers (in a healthy way), and I'd even bet that as they became adults in their physical prime and their father aged out of his own prime, that those men still had a respect for their father and that "fear" (if we want to call it that) of dad.

Perhaps this reads off the page a lot differently than I intend it. Perhaps women aren't able to understand the dynamic between a father and a son - an adolescent boy and a grown man. Perhaps I'm the crazy one, but I don't think so on that last one - at least not for this reason.

labug, I truly have the utmost respect for you and value your insight greatly. If I have come across as combative or dismissive in any form or fashion, I sincerely apologize as that was and is not my intent at all.

We all have our own opinions, and I'm glad you're standing firm in your convictions that I see truly derive from love. The example of that is far more important than the decision of whether to pinch a child's leg ("violence") or make them stand in a corner("non-violence") as punishment/correction, and I have no doubts you have done an excellent job raising your sons.

Lastly, if I have misunderstood your perspective, my apologies.

This is Planet's thread and it's not a parenting forum so we should probably go back to the subject we're here to discuss, marriage.

Agreed.

Regarding planet's sitch, *I* would have trouble with OM physically disciplining my child. I have had some time to think about it, and maybe "caning" is like "paddling" over here in the U.S...I don't know. I remember the young American man who was caned as punishment for vandalism over in Singapore back in the 90's, and that seemed pretty severe. If parental caning is anything like that, then I think that's over the line no matter who does it.

But another man physically disciplining my child? Oh, I don't think so. My knee-jerk reaction is that I would strike him 10x for every 1 time he struck my child, and 10x as hard with each strike. This man is not even their stepfather!

But that's my initial reaction. Who knows, I may one day have to deal with allowing a step-dad to punish my own daughters. And while that will be difficult for me, I know I must back that stepfather up if he is in the right so that the parents present a united front.

If he hits them, however? My girls? 10x10.

planet, I know you are in a difficult spot because you can't seem to speak to your STBX rationally, so I'm not sure how to get the message across about discipline. I do know that you have a boundary that he will not be sleeping in the same bed as your children. If you STBX won't enforce that, I will only say that *I* would by making it clear to him that he really doesn't want to do that. And that's probably a good opportunity to go over what you - the father - will and won't allow as punishment/correction of your children. STBX doesn't need to know (though I suspect he will go whine to her about it anyway).

Just a thought.

-PM

[MrBond]

I was spanked before and hated it. I vowed I'd never do the same to my kids and never have. It doesn't matter how young they are. You're still using physical force to change a negative behavior. Would it help if your boss slapped you for doing a bad job? There's always another way.

[PatientMan]

I was spanked before and hated it. I vowed I'd never do the same to my kids and never have. It doesn't matter how young they are. You're still using physical force to change a negative behavior. Would it help if your boss slapped you for doing a bad job? There's always another way.

The fallacy of your thinking is that "your way is the only way" - since it didn't affect you positively, it cannot affect anyone positively. Maybe you were spanked out of anger, or maybe you were spanked unfairly, or too often, or too forcefully, or maybe it just isn't a punishment you respond well to...I don't know.

What I do think you have done is great! Instead of repeating the cycle of what you deem as bad/poor parenting, you recognized it and put a stop to it. "Not my kids!" you say. And THAT, to anyone who is reading this, is fantastic parenting. Taking what your parents did well and repeating it, and taking what your parents did poorly, and throwing that in the trash. You are a good man for breaking that cycle that too many parents don't break.

People respond differently to different stimuli. What works for one child may not work for another, and that's where the parent has to do the hard work and figure out that a parenting approach not tailored to each individual child is a poor and lazy strategy.

I was spanked, slapped, punched, beaten, whipped, and paddled (there is probably more, I'm just thinking quickly right now and that's what came to mind). Some of that was over the line. Some of that was deserved and got my attention. *I* am not going to throw tools out of my parenting toolbox because my parents misused those tools. I will keep the ones that may be effective when I deem them to be effective and appropriate.

(To reconcile that list of what was done to me and what is currently in my own toolbox, the only one of those I listed that I have used is spanking, and with four children over 12 years, I can count on one hand how often I've spanked any of my daughters.)

And of course, having four girls certainly changes my strategy as my girls grow older.

To answer your question about my boss slapping me: I spent four years in the Marine Corps and had far worse than that done to me early on. In the Corps, physical altercation is embedded in our jobs. It is a part of life, and it should be as we trained for and were at war.

But we aren't talking about jobs, about one adult correcting another adult who has the mental capacity to understand the correction. That is, again, a fallaciously based premise to your argument. You are not your child's boss, you are his or her parent.

You are not equals.

You are not dealing with a rational adult mind capable of understanding the wisdom you are attempting to express. Your parenting techniques should thus evolve accordingly as the child's mental capacity evolves (which it does based on psychological research - I could link, but I believe that's against the rules), but rationalizing with those incapable of understanding the rationale is an exercise in futility.

Unlike you saying "there is always another way", I am saying "sometimes another way isn't the 'best' way", but that's for YOU to decide. I'm not coming down on you for choosing that route, I am not saying you are "wrong" for choosing that route, I'm just saying *I* choose *my* route because I believe it to be the most effective.

I am patient and gentle and kind and loving and self-controlled.

And if ever I am not, I am quick to ask my kids for forgiveness. (I think that's a great example to set: asking your child for forgiveness when you've messed up...raised your voice or lost your temper, as examples. They, in return, become great teachers to ME on how quickly we should forgive others. It shows them I am no hypocrite, that we all make mistakes, that we should ask for forgiveness, and we should be quick to forgive. What GREAT LESSONS out of what otherwise would be a somber situation!)

And there are countless other methods I use to parent and correct and admonish and encourage my children that don't include any sort of physical contact, so I don't want to get caught up in just the physical piece to paint a picture that describes me in an overly-physical way. I can clear my throat at the right time and save myself a 5 minute lecture. I can glare for 5 seconds and say more than a 2 minute speech. I can simply say, "are we using our words to build each other up, or tear each other down?" and they remember all the talks we've had about loving one another, encouraging one another, letting no unwholesome talk come out of our mouths.

Is there another way than a physical tool, as slight as it may be? As you said, "always." I just don't agree that another way is always the most effective way.

You are welcome to disagree with me. We are all entitled to our own opinions.

I would like to reiterate that any form of physical correction is a last resort technique or a response that needs to be remedied immediately. These instances are extremely rare and, based on how my children interact with me physically (hugging, cuddling, kissing, playing) along with how they treat me and trust me with extremely personal information, I am confident they do not walk around in fear of me because I have used physical correction or punishment in the past or they know those tools are in my toolbox.

My children are not abused by "physical violence", and I do not believe they will grow up thinking that they were.

There is a way to balance love and physical correction. And though I take no pleasure in it, I do what I think is best and most effective.

I'm sure you do the same, and I commend you for that.

-PM

[MrBond]

"The fallacy of your thinking is that "your way is the only way" - since it didn't affect you positively, it cannot affect anyone positively. "

Nope never said my way was the only way. You did. And the term "abuse" is fairly broad. To some even talking sternly to someone is considered "abuse". I thought it odd that you phrased it as "physical violence". I mean if an adult slapped another adult, it would be considered violence and battery. You could get arrested for it.

I guess then, there would be no difference if you or a spouse's stepfather spanked them. I wouldn't want anyone to lay a hand on my kids, especially me.

Personally I've never heard anyone say they were happy to be spanked as a kid.

[planet]

I do not like to spank my kids especially it is out of my own frustration of inability to control them. Therefore, I rarely spank them and it is extremely rare.

XW parents have some weird logic that we should not discipline nor reprimand the kids. The kids should be allowed to continue their unruly behavior because they will eventually outgrow them. The word discipline here does not translate to just using physical force. One will have to look at how their own kids turn out to know they have got it wrong. XFIL is a proud man and has an ego the size of an elephant. He thinks he's right all the time. He thinks researches from experts are wrong.

My mom used make us do chores. We learned responsibility from it. That is discipline.

Can you see my frustrations dealing with them including XW?
The problem is we are divorced and I don't spend enough time with them. It's not 50-50 time either. I'll have to make do with the little time I have.
I don't expect others to understand this. You lived in a land where the law favours both parties. It is extremely unfair here. I don't think you can even comprehend how helpless I feel. Losing my family and all.

I have been lied to since day one. Naively believed I have a chance with XW all this while. Our pictures are up. My cup is still there. Etc. Everything is just for show.
She and OM are having a secret relationship for a long time. The day I left, she even told me it was just puppy love on OM's part.
Now they begin to do it openly. Breaks my heart again.
She loves OM now. D3 repeated to me this 'mummy loves OM, OM loves mummy'. 10 years of R gone in the space of couple of months.
Last couple of weeks, I have been avoiding XW. I have nothing I want to talk to her about. I just can't bring myself to pretend being happy around her. I feel very empty.

I have been thinking very hard on just moving on. Forget XW.

I have read one thread talking about EDMR treatment. I need some help dealing with my insomnia.
I managed to locate one here. Going to my first appointment on Sunday. The fees is pretty high and I don't think I can afford it for long.

[PatientMan]

"The fallacy of your thinking is that "your way is the only way" - since it didn't affect you positively, it cannot affect anyone positively. "

Nope never said my way was the only way. You did.

My mistake as that is what I inferred from the tone of your comment. Take that sentence out and I stand by the rest.

I thought it odd that you phrased it as "physical violence".

It was not my term, it was labug's. I thought it to be a cavalier use of the phrase and thus made an argument against it (the examples of a toddler running into a busy street, a child attacking another with a baseball bat, or a teenager threatening himself or another with a firearm). Those examples, though technically I suppose they fall under the "physical violence" umbrella which carries a very negative connotation, would not be considered negative reactions, but necessary and proper ones.

I guess then, there would be no difference if you or a spouse's stepfather spanked them. I wouldn't want anyone to lay a hand on my kids, especially me.

I covered this in my previous post. Though I would support a step-father's authority, I would have a serious problem with him laying his hands on my daughters. It's something I haven't had to think through, but that's my initial reaction: "10x10".

Personally I've never heard anyone say they were happy to be spanked as a kid.

You've never met anyone who thought they deserved it? That looking back as an adult, they understand it, though they didn't like it at the time? You don't know anyone who spanks their children now, or gives them some form of physical punishment? Seriously?

How many people have you actually asked this question?

Raise your count to 1. I certainly deserved some of the spankings I got, and I understand why I got them, and it certainly deterred my behavior when other, non-physical, methods weren't effective. And I certainly wasn't "happy" about it at the time.

But pleasing an unruly child isn't really the point, so asking if they were "happy" isn't a question relevant to the discussion. Spankings aren't intended to make kids happy. They are intended to correct. They are intended to reenforce that there are consequences for their actions. They are intended to effectively deter poor behavior.

-PM