The tide is high, but I'm holding on

[LoisB]

Well....YES, you DID have a script then...

It was titled...hurt, raw emotion , and other assorted dependent behaviors....

Ant the is kind of my point...

YOUR script changed..

This one was, Strength, and GTFO out of my life...

This cracks me up.

[reachingHigher]

Truth is....

The expectations of things being one way or the other way, are the things that ultimately do the LBS in.

Same as always...it didn't break overnight, and it won't fix overnight.

Yes, I can attest to this.

This year, 2013, there were many times I said to myself "I have this strange feeling that the power is in my hand to mess this thing up permanently."

Mostly b/c I couldn't get past my own pain, lack of forgiveness, hurt, betrayed feelings, expectations, whatever.....

It's a tough road.

But TVS, you're much stronger than I was. You've got what it takes to hold yourself together, I just know it!

I think one of the only reasons my H & I have made it thus far, was he said he accepted reconciliation would be a rocky journey. He knew there would be hard times. He expected it, so was calm and understanding through it all. What a gift to me that was!

[Takevowsserious]

Hello DBers

I've been thinking about your post Mach. Good thing T loaned me his clipboard and extra pencil

Question...

At the end of the post you say:

"Baby steps are great...sort of...

When we reach this point, most people say, F baby steps, I want Giant leaps. I want this to end sooner rather than later...."

Then turn around and say:

"The expectations of things being one way or the other way, are the things that ultimately do the LBS in.

Same as always...it didn't break overnight, and it won't fix overnight."

So... Which is it?

Personally, I all for baby steps IF they are genuine. It's the if part that can be tricky to determine.

It is getting to a point where my patience is wearing thin. Absolutely.

But I also feel like - I've made it this far - I've survived being blindsided by the bomb, being subjected to angry spew, lived with a completely bizarre pod person for some time, had to watch my H and ex-friend OW parade around together at work in front of all of our co-workers - just to name a few things - so I think I can dig in for a little bit longer and see this through.

As far as what reconciliation looks like to me-

I can tell you what it doesn't look like. That's a half- hearted, half-a$$ed attempt at saving our M from someone who is half- baked. And I think that's all my H is capable of at this point.

In the future? Who knows. I still have hope.

Non-negotiables:
Admittance of affair
End of affair
Therapy
An effort on his part - through consistent actions - that he wants me and our M

What does that last part look like? Not sure yet.

See, I've kinda embraced the whole concept that I'm the prize in this. And if I'm the prize, I think perhaps he needs to do some thinking and figure out how to win me back.

He's been able to figure out how to have an affair with a married co-worker for two years, deplete our savings, live a double life full of lies and deceit. So... I'm thinking if he wants to be married to me, he can figure that out too. Just sayin.

One last thing -

There has been a lot of discussion around here recently concerning trust and forgiveness. I can sum up my stance as this -

Forgiveness is given. Trust is earned. Period.

You can forgive someone who may not "deserve" it or even care. You can forgive someone, and they don't even know it.

It's a choice you make for you. It is something that doesn't change. Once you decide to forgive someone, you move forward past the wrong.

Trust on the other hand...
That requires reciprocation, plain and simple. It's something that's fluid, that can change and morph.

I truly believe that I will be able to forgive my H - but that is not the same as trusting him or having a relationship with him. He plays a part in developing those things.

He is either going to face himself and do the work or remain stuck in crisis and not do the work.

I guess as always, TIME will tell

[Takevowsserious]

Dear rH ~

You are so hard on yourself. Too hard.

We are always told to dig deep for patience, but I think we also need to be patient with ourselves.

We've been terribly hurt through all this, hurt that has spanned over years. It's okay to take the time you need to heal and find strength. To figure things out on your end, to sort out your feelings.

I think - maybe unconsciously - a lot of pressure is placed on the LBS. Pressure to be strong, to be that source of strength for your MLC spouse. Pressure to hold things together, care for the children, protect the family. It can be a lot at times.

We aren't perfect.

You and your H are both feeling your way through this. I don't know if you can permanently mess things up.

You have been that source of strength for your H and family. Now, it's time to be a source of strength for you

[LoisB]

TVS, I really like this:

In the future? Who knows. I still have hope.

Non-negotiables:
Admittance of affair
End of affair
Therapy
An effort on his part - through consistent actions - that he wants me and our M

RH, I agree with TVS. You are too hard on yourself. You went from the craziness of a near-D to reconciliation. We were there. I remember the transformation. This entire year has been such a wonderful blessing.

At the same time, you have been forced to put your feelings aside to some degree in order to help your H along. YOu have been the stronger of the two of you for the past several years and it's been necessary to shelf some of your feelings in order to bring about this reconciliation. It's only natural to do that when your spouse is still somewhat fragile but willing to work on the relationship.

I think sometimes how, those of us still estranged or heading for divorce are maybe--yes, I'm gonna say luckier-in some respects because we've been completely free to let it out and get down to those really ugly feelings.

You've been a great example and help to everyone here and to your spouse. Maybe it's time--maybe the relationship is safe enough now?-- to give yourself some more space to ease up on yourself and let out some of those feelings that maybe couldn't be released before?

IDK. I know you have worked hard on yourself--I don't mean to sound like you haven't--I just think it would be natural to have some gunk down deep--in a vault-hidden away from a spouse that maybe, just maybe, you are still a lil worried may jump off the deepend again?

Much Love,

Heather

[AJM]

One of the funny things about this journey - as things change the lbs may find themselves with all the control. Suddenly. It tends to be as much of a shock as the BD. If not more. As the balance in the relationship changes, the LBS has to change too. It's inevitable. It's disorienting. It's why, I think, Mach was talking about wanting to hurry things up and take a giant leap, when the pace is much slower. Much much slower than hoped for. And still very tenuous. The MLCr could decide that it's too much to deal with and run away. The LBS might decide it's not "real" and push them away.

It's a delicate dance.

But one thing is certain, the MLCr is looking for integrity in the LBS actions and words. They are assessing of a sort, to see what damage has been done and if they can make that walk. The LBS wants to feel that it's real and has.."expectations" that may not align with the words they have previously used. There's a lot of lag in the conversation - you aren't dealing with the same person that left.

It's not clear cut. But I think what you are being advised is to go slowly and not have expectations. Focus on you and what you want in the long term. Don't focus on the short term wants and "goals" of what it may look like for them to come back. Instead, focus on what you want to be. What you can live with, and when. Focus on what is important to you in the big picture and decide what is worth dying on the hill for.

The MLCr will move at their own pace. You cannot change that. You can influence the direction they move.

Time is what it takes. More than you'd like to be sure. But in time more will become known - if you wait for it. If you have no expectations at this time. There will be time enough later to have expectations.

You are the prize. Know that. But be still and wait. And listen far more than you express those needs. For now.

Peace,
AJ

[cat04]

At the end of the post you say:

"Baby steps are great...sort of...

When we reach this point, most people say, F baby steps, I want Giant leaps. I want this to end sooner rather than later...."

Then turn around and say:

"The expectations of things being one way or the other way, are the things that ultimately do the LBS in.

Same as always...it didn't break overnight, and it won't fix overnight."

So... Which is it?

There is no either or...

It is both.

If you push for the giant leaps, you are going to see someone who turns and runs...

If your expectations are high that things are going to be suddenly better, that there is going to be a huge gesture that suggests committment, you are going to be let down.

I think many of us expect something grandiose, like BD was. And that doesn't happen. The relationship will slowly evolve if it is going to.


If you allow it to...

As far as what reconciliation looks like to me-

I can tell you what it doesn't look like. That's a half- hearted, half-a$$ed attempt at saving our M from someone who is half- baked. And I think that's all my H is capable of at this point.

That may be all he is capable of at this point.

That may be all he is capable of for a while.

And it could change...

It's up to you if you want to wait and see or not.

See, I've kinda embraced the whole concept that I'm the prize in this. And if I'm the prize, I think perhaps he needs to do some thinking and figure out how to win me back.

He's been able to figure out how to have an affair with a married co-worker for two years, deplete our savings, live a double life full of lies and deceit. So... I'm thinking if he wants to be married to me, he can figure that out too. Just sayin.

Yes you are the prize.

From what I am reading, you are still very angry about the A and you, maybe not consciously, seem to want to punish him for that.

Doing that, won't get you very far.

Forgiveness is given. Trust is earned. Period.

You can forgive someone who may not "deserve" it or even care. You can forgive someone, and they don't even know it.

It's a choice you make for you. It is something that doesn't change. Once you decide to forgive someone, you move forward past the wrong.

Trust on the other hand...
That requires reciprocation, plain and simple. It's something that's fluid, that can change and morph.

I used to feel that way.

I agree with you about the forgivness. That is how it works.

I have learned though that trust is something that is also given. It requires a leap of faith that forgivness does not.

Last night, I was struggling to figure out how to put this into words because I honestly didn't know how to express it.

This morning, that has changed.

I am in a situation right now where one of my surrogate children is on the verge of death. While I use the word surrogate, know that in my heart, she is as important as the one I gave birth to.

There is nothing that can be done. She has been put on a DNR. The biggest leap of faith in the world has had to be taken by her mother and those of us who love her like our own.

We have had to put our trust in God, which is a concept that some people don't even believe in, to do what is right.

Faith, in general, is necessary in order to be willing to give trust.

Faith in yourself. That you, and things in general, will be ok no matter what. If you know that, then it is pretty easy to give trust, until you have a reason not to give it.

Giving another person trust, puts you in a position of vulnerability. Because it gives them an opportunity to hurt you.

Being with someone you don't trust, keeps a space and distance that is detrimental to a relationship.

One more thing...

I truly believe that I will be able to forgive my H - but that is not the same as trusting him or having a relationship with him. He plays a part in developing those things.

What are you waiting for?

Not forgiving him, is not going to help you in the long run.

You can't simply believe that you will be able to forgive him, you need to do it.

If you can't, don't want to, are waiting for some sign before you try...

Then you are wasting your time.

It has to come first.

[Mach1]

Cat and AJ summed the other question up really well...

So...

There has been a lot of discussion around here recently concerning trust and forgiveness. I can sum up my stance as this -

Forgiveness is given. Trust is earned. Period.

You can forgive someone who may not "deserve" it or even care. You can forgive someone, and they don't even know it.

It's a choice you make for you. It is something that doesn't change. Once you decide to forgive someone, you move forward past the wrong.

Well...THAT hit an exposed nerve huh ??

Me thinks you have a skewed vision of forgiveness...

The BEST line I have read about forgiveness...???

... Not forgiving someone, is like setting yourself on fire, in hopes that the smoke gets into their eyes....

Why would you say, that we(as people) should learn forgiveness ???

[LoisB]

Oh my Gawd.

I'm soooo confused.

How is this not healthy or ok?

Forgiveness is given. Trust is earned. Period.

You can forgive someone who may not "deserve" it or even care. You can forgive someone, and they don't even know it.

It's a choice you make for you. It is something that doesn't change. Once you decide to forgive someone, you move forward past the wrong.

Isn't this the Christian, Dr. Phil, Oprah, classic explanation of trust and forgiveness??

So, someone hits me over the head again and again and again. I can forgive because the person wasn't breastfed or whatever. How can I trust that person NOT to hit me over the head again? Without any actions to prove to me they have changed?

Don't get it. I just don't get it.

If I hold onto the anger, I will hurt myself. Makes sense. Forgiveness is necessary to move forward with my life. But, isn't trust completely different?

[AJM]

Hang on Lois. It really is somewhat simple, but the explanations are coming from various points in somebody's life journey. I can see how it is confusing - good on ya for sticking with it. I can see you do want to know.

I've been there. I wanted to know how to forgive. Or if I could forgive. I'm human. My brain and heart were screaming, "so she did x, y, z, and then some and continues to do so. But what about ME????" I talked to my pastor, my friends, my God, myself (that's helpful if not strange :))

I am a Christian. I have been told to forgive, but never really shown how by other people. It's easy when you watch others or hear stories. But it's harder when it's you and you come up with ideas about it such as "if I could just understand" or "if they would just stop poking at me and being hurtful" or "If my ex would just say they are sorry..." or ... The list could go on with things that are first.

When I die, I expect them to bury me face first so Dr Phil and Oprah and their types can kiss my a**. I find their pop psych to be detrimental and irresponsible. Just so you know where I'm coming from.

Forgiveness is NOT just for you. It's NOT just for...anyone except the person that needs to be forgiven. It has a side benefit of helping the person giving the forgiveness (depending on why they forgave - if for selfish reasons only, it has less value if you ask me; and often unresolved things that dangle along with it.) Forgiveness does not require anyone's input or action. It is yours to give or not to give. Period.

Trust as a gift to give? I hadn't thought of it that way, but I can see the wisdom. I also see the wisdom in trusting or distrusting when warranted. I can forgive and not trust nor forget. It would be foolish to forget or to trust unwisely (seems redundant I know, but think about it.) But the cycle of trust requires *somebody* to start, does it not? To take that leap of faith, somebody has to initiate the trust.

The anger? It doesn't go away when you forgive. It doesn't go away with trust rebuilding. The anger goes away when you get your perspective straightened out. When you get over your own disappointment at the events that took place. When you embrace what is vs what you wanted or expected and the gap in between. When you realize that you took a chance and it didn't work out as you expected, but that you'll be ok and likely better as you progress on your journey. When you realize we are all flawed creatures and although we may lie to somebody who trusted us, it doesn't diminish what we felt or wanted to be.

These are three separate yet intertwined items, Lois.

Letting it go is not easy when it's in your face all the time. When you haven't had a chance to regain your perspective. To let your own light shine. To let go of the hurts and expectations you *had*. Forgiveness of the other for not living up to the expectations is not that hard after you regain perspective. Forgiving yourself may be a little tougher Trust is the hardest because your concept of it is based on your past. That's understandable. It makes sense to do that, but the leap of faith is to rebuild trust when there is none there currently and the other person doesn't act the way you expect they should.

Crazy isn't it?

Re-think it though and it's not as crazy as it sounds...


Life's short. The goal is not to stay married to the same person and you'll therefore have a great life. The goal is to become fully human, to love your God and live a life that proves that out, and to hopefully share your life with a mate/companion that shares the outlook and journey with you.

Peace,
AJ