Moved Back from Overseas to Figure This Out...

[S4tk]

AS and labug,

Thank you for your words. I listen to all of them, even if it takes a while to sink in or I don't fully agree.

Telling her something like I had been thinking to tell her - it seemed like such a good idea, and a way to avoid her making assumptions about why I may seem to be doing "more of the same" in terms of emotional avoidance. I think through it, decide that I won't be impacted negatively if she rejects the idea, wait a few days to see if I still like the idea, etc. Then I roll out the idea here for beta testing...

And then the balloon gets deflated!

I appreciate the counsel, and it helps me to see that the whole thing may not be the good idea I thought it was. I must be blind to some aspects of this process still.

Because I am 180ing and detaching. (Labug, my previous thread has a post where I lay out my goals / 180s).

With GALing, I am taking the kids out weekly for daddy time, just completed my 22nd run to prep for a 10k or half marathon, have lost about 10 pounds and am working in about 30 more, taking dance lessons (part GAL, part 180), reading a lot, etc. etc.

But I seem to see confusion in her, and I fear it is not the, "Hmm, maybe he's not such a bad guy," confusion, but more so the, "Is he already forgetting the things I told him?" kind of confusion.

[S4tk]

I wish there was a facepalm smiley, this would be a good time to use it, LOL!

OK, I did laugh at this one. Your point came across loud and clear

[NLW]

Hi S4,

My understanding of this process -and it's taken me a LONG time - is that our spouses will do what they are going to do, on their own timeframe, and there is nothing we can do to make them speed up, slow down, go in a particular direction, etc.

They will navigate through whatever it is that they are experiencing alone.

We are bystanders to this process, patient, kind, civil observers, if you like.
But nothing we do to change them has an effect. The crisis or hurt that they are experiencing is too intense for us to have an impact.

If we change our actions towards them, it has to be because we want to be different, for ourselves. It is pointless trying to change in order to 'show' them.

In other words, we can't 'win' them back.

They have to 'save' themselves; that seems to be the nature of the process.
It's taken me a long time to realise this - and a lot of false starts, whining pleas, sorrowful letters - none of which had the slightest positive effect.

My XH will do what he's going to do, and NOTHING I do to try and influence him is effective.
On the other hand, things I do to make me a better person seem to be working, slowly, quite well for ME.

I realise that none of this is 'news' but sometimes we need to keep hearing the same thing in different words and from those with recent battle-scars, for it to gel.

Best, NLW

[labug]

Labug - thank you for your input. I get what you are saying, but aren't DB and DR (to a certain extent) "tactical" books/ideas designed to improve ourselves, which may lead to the spouse changing as well, and thus potentially save our M's?

Change yourself, the R changes, doesn't mean the other person changes. We have no control over others. If you're making changes not because you think you need to but simply to try to get your W back, the changes won't be authentic and won't stick. That's a tactic.

Looking deep inside yourself and finding things that need to change and changing them because you want to be a better man, husband, father-that's not a tactic, that's growth.

I am thinking about control a lot, and some examples of what that might look like. For example, a few months before BD, W had decided to delete her Facebook account. She actually did it. I, not knowing she could reverse the decision for up to a month (Facebook rules), was a little annoyed with her doing it without telling me because we worked for the same organization, and keeping connected to others through FB was important for our fundraising efforts. When she found out about my annoyance, she reinstated her account.

We didn't mention it since. I guess I can fathom the idea of it as control, but I think control is such a hard thing to define.

We can't control others. That's really hard to accept for a lot of people, I know it was for me. I loved to control things and I was very good at it. For me it was under the guise of "helping" or "making sure everything goes OK" or things weren't moving fast enough for me, etc I've learned over these last 2-3 years that unless people specifically ask me for help or to make decisions for them, I need to leave them alone.

You said yourself in your first post that you were a "fix-it" person, what kinds of things did you find it necessary to fix?

Tell us more about your day-to-day household life. How was money handled, who bought groceries, how were chores accomplished, who was responsible for childcare, how was the decision to move back to the states made, where is your W's family, did your W have a lot of friends, a support system? Do you have a temper?

Even DR has a step called, "Ask for what you want." What is the difference? Where does it become control?

Asking for what you want...how does that equate to control? Asking means just that, asking. The person you are asking is able to decide whether they want to honor your request or not.

Expecting compliance is control.

A final note, I sense a bit of defensiveness in your response to me. I don't take it personally at all, but if what I'm sensing is true, figure out why you feel that way. It's your internal compass and will lead you to things you should look at more closely.

This process is a series of steps and the first step is honesty.

[ccZ28]

Asking for what you want...how does that equate to control? Asking means just that, asking. The person you are asking is able to decide whether they want to honor your request or not.

Expecting compliance is control.

labug... I can't even begin to thank you. I feel like someone just smacked me in the head.

I guess i've always expected that when i ask for something that it will be done, and that i have an expectation for it to be done.

Example: When i asked my W if she would please not stay out all night.

Expectation was that she would comply, and that I was mad when she didn't.

I totally see how this can be "control" just because I asked, doesn't mean she is required to comply. She makes her own choices, as I make mine.

ST4K,

I have thought about doing the same thing as you, I have even done small things that 'I believe' will make her see a change, or make her feel happier. But they don't.

I put on this huge romantic dinner , candles, a movie etc. Anyone woman in their right mind would have been blown away. Sure she was appreciative at the time, but a few days later she mentioned that it really had no effect on her at all, and was only being polite.

THEY DON'T CARE.

They don't want anything from you, or to hear how much you want them, or how much you love them.

They already know these things, and these attempts are futile.

( I need to take my own advice here , seriously.)

Keep being better for yourself!

[S4tk]

Labug - thank you for your input. I get what you are saying, but aren't DB and DR (to a certain extent) "tactical" books/ideas designed to improve ourselves, which may lead to the spouse changing as well, and thus potentially save our M's?

Change yourself, the R changes, doesn't mean the other person changes. We have no control over others. If you're making changes not because you think you need to but simply to try to get your W back, the changes won't be authentic and won't stick. That's a tactic.

I don't think this is entirely true. DR is filled with examples where Michele helps one spouse "experiment" with something designed to change the behavior of the spouse. I do definitely agree that the internal changes won't "stick" as you wrote, unless we own the change. I both agree and disagree here.


Looking deep inside yourself and finding things that need to change and changing them because you want to be a better man, husband, father-that's not a tactic, that's growth.

agree. Critical self-reflection has been happening within me the last four months, but especially the last 2 months.

I am thinking about control a lot, and some examples of what that might look like. For example, a few months before BD, W had decided to delete her Facebook account. She actually did it. I, not knowing she could reverse the decision for up to a month (Facebook rules), was a little annoyed with her doing it without telling me because we worked for the same organization, and keeping connected to others through FB was important for our fundraising efforts. When she found out about my annoyance, she reinstated her account.

We didn't mention it since. I guess I can fathom the idea of it as control, but I think control is such a hard thing to define.

We can't control others. That's really hard to accept for a lot of people, I know it was for me. I loved to control things and I was very good at it. For me it was under the guise of "helping" or "making sure everything goes OK" or things weren't moving fast enough for me, etc I've learned over these last 2-3 years that unless people specifically ask me for help or to make decisions for them, I need to leave them alone.

Again, agree and disagree. In a family, there is a spectrum where offering to help can range from control on one hand to neglect on the other. In a business, the spectrum goes from micromanagement on the one hand, to poor leadership on the other.

You said yourself in your first post that you were a "fix-it" person, what kinds of things did you find it necessary to fix?

I think here your question is something I need to consider more. I believe that my fix-it tendencies, when they manifest, are actually selfish attempts to not let life get overwhelming... to make life "easier" on everyone. I do see the control in this idea. Thanks for pointing that out labug.

Tell us more about your day-to-day household life. How was money handled, who bought groceries, how were chores accomplished, who was responsible for childcare, how was the decision to move back to the states made, where is your W's family, did your W have a lot of friends, a support system? Do you have a temper?

I was working 9-6 most days. I took D5 to preschool, picked her up and brought her home around 3 and headed back to work until about 5-6. Some days I bought groceries and came home to cook (maybe a third of the time), a third of the time we made something easy for dinner, and a third of the time we ate out. We bought had credit cards for the same accounts and I did pay bills once a month but rarely said anything about spending unless I noticed something unusual.

W was/is a SAHM and a good one. She was even wanting to home school up until BD. I tried not to push that idea one way or another because I knew it would affect her day-to-day much more than mine. Because things were so affordable OS, we hired someone to clean the place once a week. Other chores were split, but she did more being SAHM.

The decision to the States was made because W was having severe anxiety attacks and insomnia and basically had a kind of demand list. It felt like ultimatums.

W's family lives in Europe, in a different country from the one we were living. She has never considered moving back there. She has a strained R with them due to several factors. W did have 4-5 great friends OS, here in the States only 1-2. I have encouraged her to get involved in different things to meet more friends, but never pushed since it is her life.

I don't have a temper. Fights never got physical, and rarely involved raised voices. Never any name calling. But I do like to talk things through comprehensively and she prefers to avoid conflict. I believe this was a major source of stress for her, and in these instances I did probably control things because I hate avoidance.

Even DR has a step called, "Ask for what you want." What is the difference? Where does it become control?

Asking for what you want...how does that equate to control? Asking means just that, asking. The person you are asking is able to decide whether they want to honor your request or not.

Expecting compliance is control.

Agree. I believe that W sensed that I always expected compliance even when much of the time I was just asking or suggesting something. But I need to think about this more.


A final note, I sense a bit of defensiveness in your response to me. I don't take it personally at all, but if what I'm sensing is true, figure out why you feel that way. It's your internal compass and will lead you to things you should look at more closely.

labug, thank you for responding. I don't think I displayed defensiveness. I simply think things through quite a bit and found myself disagreeing or questioning some of the statements. Hopefully that is OK.

This process is a series of steps and the first step is honesty.

final note. Labug, thank you for posting and I welcome you to keep commenting on my sitch. I appreciate it.

[AnotherStander]

With GALing, I am taking the kids out weekly for daddy time, just completed my 22nd run to prep for a 10k or half marathon, have lost about 10 pounds and am working in about 30 more, taking dance lessons (part GAL, part 180), reading a lot, etc. etc.

Awesome! Keep it up!

But I seem to see confusion in her, and I fear it is not the, "Hmm, maybe he's not such a bad guy," confusion, but more so the, "Is he already forgetting the things I told him?" kind of confusion.

She's probably not thinking in those terms. My W said her confusion was along the lines of "I don't want to hurt the people I love, but I don't want this M either". The WAS spends a lot of time fretting over what they've done. The confusion is NOT over whether they should reconcile or not, that's usually the farthest thing from their mind until much, much later.

I guess i've always expected that when i ask for something that it will be done, and that i have an expectation for it to be done.

Example: When i asked my W if she would please not stay out all night.

Expectation was that she would comply, and that I was mad when she didn't.

I took a seminar over a decade ago and learned one of the most brilliant yet simple concepts I've ever heard- an "agreement" is an "offer" and an "acceptance". If I tell my kid to take the trash out tonight and he grunts a response and then doesn't do it, I have no right to get butthurt about it because it was not an agreement, it was a mandate. There was no "acceptance". I have no right to punish him for not complying. BUT, if I ask him if he will take the trash out tonight and he says he will (perhaps for an allowance or whatever), well then there is an agreement and if he doesn't do it then there should be ramifications to him breaching the agreement. This simple principal can be applied to your personal as well as professional life. Often if something doesn't get done and I start to get annoyed/ angry, I have to stop and ask myself- "was there an agreement here?" If there wasn't then shame on me, it's my own fault.

I put on this huge romantic dinner , candles, a movie etc. Anyone woman in their right mind would have been blown away. Sure she was appreciative at the time, but a few days later she mentioned that it really had no effect on her at all, and was only being polite.

THEY DON'T CARE.

Absolutely right. This is a great example of falling back on old habits because they've worked before. But dealing with a WAS is a much different sitch than dealing with an upset wife or GF. Like we always say, DB'ing is counterintuitive. We think we should beg/ plead/ negotiate/ lavish the WAS with attention. But that never works.

[labug]

What do you hope to get from this forum? Rally think about what you want out of this.

But I seem to see confusion in her, and I fear it is not the, "Hmm, maybe he's not such a bad guy," confusion, but more so the, "Is he already forgetting the things I told him?" kind of confusion.

A gentle reminder here, you weren't very good at mindreading her before

Three months ago my W shared "out of the blue" (for me at least) that the love was gone, no more connection, that I am controlling and manipulative, that I have stolen her voice, etc.

so I wouldn't rely on those skills now.

If you become the man, husband, father, she needs she'll see that and it may give her pause.

Mindreading keeps the focus on her, your focus needs to be you.

[S4tk]

Today is Friday. It was a mixed week, but I will say mostly good. I am sitting here journaling while D5 is watching morning cartoon shows.

W and I ended up going last night for drinks. Since I didn't immediately journal it until this morning, things aren't 100% linear.

She got orange juice and we joked about that. She loved coffee and the occasional alcoholic beverage before BD, but since then she feels they induce bad anxiety in her. She doesn't touch either right now.

I asked about Thanksgiving. She said she had nowhere else to go, besides my parents' place (big gathering there annually). She asked me if she was still invited. I said of course, but I just wanted to ask because she had decided a month ago not to come to a family wedding on my side and I wanted to ask rather than assume.

She joked that she could just stay upstairs in the bedroom where people pile their coats, and I could just bring her a turkey leg. We had a good laugh about this.

We talked about little things for a bit. She shared some more about her meeting with our HR people (we work for a religious organization and they are trying to figure out what the heck to do with us in the midst of this marital crisis).

She had gone out yesterday afternoon to get some work done, and she mentioned how it's hard for her to work while at Starbucks. I said, "too distracting?" She didn't really respond. Lately she has displayed a kind of agoraphobia or something.

I let her know my IC therapist is interested in meeting her once, to help me improve myself. She asked me how IC is going and I started sharing about some stuff from counseling about my T wanting me to be friends with negative emotions like sadness, confusion and fear, instead of just ignoring them. We laughed and talked some about that.

At some point, she began to share about feeling betrayed by some people and their "fear" driving the discussion. She even mentioned the "script" some people seem to be working from (she is taking about some of her Christian friends who are strongly talking to her about not throwing away the M), which I thought was interesting since the DB forum talks so much about the script that MLCers play through.

That is ironic because I fell into the same trap of "scripting" later in the evening (will explain shortly). I listened as she talked about these feelings. I tried to ask open questions and maintain eye contact.

She then asked me if I felt I had ever gone through a crisis of faith. I mentioned a time in college when I prayed and fasted a lot because I was confused about many things in life, and then the time after I dealt with cancer when I stopped reading the bible for a few years. I asked her if she was feeling a crisis of faith.

She started talking about it and shared some. She talked about peoples' interpretations, and how we cannot know if anyone is right. I asked her how we know who is right, or the truth. She said she didn't know. We talked for a while about this, and I validated the journey she is on.

She then began talking about the control found in organized religion. The subject began to hit very close to home at this point (we have spent the last 13 years as mission workers and "part" of organized religion) , and I slipped up. I affirmed that organized religion contains elements of control (her point) but I still let my fear/control drive the conversation at one time. I made the especially stupid mistake of saying that every institution/philosophy does this, and said some things about Jung and Rogers, knowing that this is the IC she has chosen right now. Stupid of me. More of the same.

She then shut down and the conversation turned south. I apologized and we moved on, but she said that I am still not understanding her, and I'm doing some of the same things in our conversations.

I responded by saying that in our M before I began to look inward, I had been blind to how I do this, but that now at least I see when my fear causes me to respond in certain ways - and that I quickly apologize instead of denying it or leading us into a fight and making her feel crazy. This is a major 180 for me, and I think she saw this.

I felt discouraged that the last 25% of our convo went south after I did so well the first 75%. Later that night after she went to her room, I texted and said, "I guess I get a 1 out of 10 for being a listening friend tonight. I am working to do better." Surprisingly, she came out of her room, downstairs, smiled, and raised up her hand and said 5 out of 10.

Today I am bummed because I feel like the talk with one step forward, one step back in my own growth. But I resolve to learn from it.

Positives:
1) As soon as the conversation shut down last night because of my comparison of organized religion with Jung and Rogers, I realized that my comments came from a place of fear and control within. Rather than reject my wrongdoing, I accepted it and apologized with open eyes.

2) I was able to listen to some really difficult and fearful things about her crisis of faith without reacting, and with validating her in some ways. I saw growth here in me.

3) She rated me more highly than I rated myself and this was affirming.p

Negatives:
1) I am still doing more of the same by wanting to control her under the guise of intellectual discussion.

2) I am trying to rush process I cannot rush.

I've smacked myself around a bit today, but I imagine some more is coming in the form of labug and AS.

/ducking for cover/

[S4tk]

For the most part things have been peaceful these last few days. Today after D5 and I returned from church, I fed the kids lunch and put S1 down for a nap. Then I went down to watch the Bears.

W whispered from upstairs 15 minutes later and said she was going out. I didn't hear her well, and I said, "Did you say you're going out?" She said yes, and I told her to have fun.

I could tell something was amiss with our interaction, so I went upstairs to feel things out. I said, "What happened just now?" She said, "You made a face when I said I was going out, before you told me to have fun." I said, "I wasn't aware if I did that, but I'm sorry."

She then said, "Why are you sorry?" I said, "I'm sorry for how our interaction made you feel." She said, "It's not how I feel, it's about what you did."

Then I got discouraged and decided to go back downstairs rather than continue the conversation.

I really don't think I made a face of any sort. I felt pretty detached and didn't care if she went out one way or another. But this afternoon while she has been gone, thinking about this exchange has made me mad. I am growing tired of being the perceived "bad guy" in the M, and being blamed even for non-existent things.

Do you think she felt guilty going out and needed to create drama?

Do I need to sweep this under the rug as a good DBer?