How to convince resistant LD wife?

[Ambivalent]

Sounds very cool! Obviously, from my point of view, he's a fool! If only my wife could be where you are in this process.

Remember, I didn't get here before he walked out the door! I thought he was okay. I thought because he was having ed issues he didn't pursue me. I feel awful that he was feeling what was later revealed. Now he's out there doing what he needs to do.

Wouldn't be surprised if my wife felt the same way. For some of us HD men with few inhibitions about our own bodies, we probably don't fully understand that shame. I never felt an ounce of shame in that regard, ever. The more pleasure, the better. And so we think women should think the same way.

Shame comes from many sources. I thought I was fat, because my mother would make constant comments about my weight. I was NOT fat! You could count my ribs, I was/am an hour glass figure, nice shaped rear. But I heard her voice in my head, and the seventies ideal model was emaciated. So my perception was WAAAAY off.

Since the fashion world is run by women and gay men, they contributed a ton of damage to many in my generation. Add to that stress of being a mom, and sexual ignorance, embarrassment, well you get the picture. The whole women's lib thing didn't help either. God what we do to ourselves.

NOT anymore for me. I'm going to enjoy chocolate cake again some day.

[ssmguy]

Since the fashion world is run by women and gay men, they contributed a ton of damage to many in my generation.

Twiggy comes to mind. Impossibly skinny and looking more like a young man than a woman. I'm sure the gay men in the fashion industry liked the look. I didn't.

[Ambivalent]

Now you get my drift. I was born at the wrong time. I had the hour glass figure w/o large boobs...great shoulders and tiny waist. Twiggy was a stick. Anyhoo, am comfortable now, and getting more comfortable.

Again it is what it is.

[ssmguy]

You keep talking about getting a girlfriend. What do you mean by that?

I don't mean the end result as much as the leverage of transparently moving in that direction. If the alternative is divorce, then what have you got to lose? Specifically, I mean talking about it in stages. First mentioning wanting to have a girlfriend. If that doesn't get my wife involved in addressing the problem, then say you're going to get a girlfriend, but not actually getting one. And even if you get a girlfriend, you can still say you haven't done anything physically.

Do you think you could find a woman who would agree to a purely sexual relationship with a married man, and that she would never want anything more?

Well, let's put it this way, that's easy to find compared to the difficulty of getting my wife interested in having sex! Yes, I already know women who are so inclined at this point given their situations. There are women who would actually prefer the situation because they don't want somebody complicating their lives and expecting more at this particular point in their lives.

Or maybe you would want more.

Sure, maybe I'd have more than one partner after a while. But again, that's no difficulty I'd need any help with compared to the big problem I haven't been able to solve.

Or maybe you would feel horrible for cheating on your wife, even if she said it was OK.

No, I would not feel horrible, because I wouldn't actually do it unless everybody was OK with it. I'm figuring the process of trying to get an OK for it might be enough to get my wife to consider the situation seriously first.

And most likely, even if she said it was OK, she would be devastated. I know I would have.

OK, but you seem to be implying that you'd be less devastated if I divorced you first, and then had a girlfriend. We're talking about the lesser of evils here, not the fact that it's upsetting. A sexless marriage is already upsetting. So any alternative, even doing nothing, is upsetting someone. Doing nothing, divorce, girlfriend -- they're all upsetting to someone.

So what do you think about the stages. You might think your husband is an ass for asking if he can have a girlfriend. But isn't that still less upsetting than him going out and getting one but saying they're only friends? And isn't that less upsetting than him getting one and then saying he's sleeping with her?

And I know, you can lecture me and say "well, what do you expect? he's never going to have sex again?" But logical or not, fair or not, that's the way it is. I would never be OK with my husband sleeping with another woman, whether I was putting out or not.

But the alternative is, would you automatically feel a whole lot better if he divorced you FIRST, and then slept with the other woman? Does the divorce make it all better for you? That's what I don't get when people talk about divorce. I guess it depends on how you regard a legal status in emotional terms. I've heard of couples where the divorce didn't change the emotional equation at all, and someone is even more enraged when their ex starts sleeping with other people.

By the way, I don't think the word "cheat" really applies when it's consensual with everyone. I think of it as applying to secrecy and dishonesty, which is not my cup of tea.

Have you brought this up with your W? If she objects bc you are not supposed to have sex outside your M, you can perhaps remind her that you ARE supposed to have sex inside your M . . . .

Yes, done all of that. She doesn't mind that I have female friends, though she stops short of giving me explicit permission for sex with others. By the way, some of my best female friends have also become her best friends.

[melissag]

OK, but you seem to be implying that you'd be less devastated if I divorced you first, and then had a girlfriend. We're talking about the lesser of evils here, not the fact that it's upsetting. A sexless marriage is already upsetting. So any alternative, even doing nothing, is upsetting someone. Doing nothing, divorce, girlfriend -- they're all upsetting to someone.

Nope, that's not what I meant. The distinction to me is that when my H said that he was so miserable that he wanted a D, I finally understood how much this was hurting him. Because, I am embarrassed to say this, but I didn't understand (because I was looking at it through my own lens) how this could possibly be SO important, and I thought (before he BD'd) he was just being overdramatic about it. The fact that he was SO hurt (and there were other issues, not just sex, but that was the big one that he always complained about) made me take ten big steps back, and listen to what he said without judging it, and look at how *I* was acting and where I went wrong.

Now . . . in the state of mind I was in (this is silly, he's being overdramatic, he just wants to get laid, he only values me for sex, etc.), if he had come to me and said "I want to get a girlfriend to have sex with since you won't give it to me," this would have only fed into my delusional thoughts. And then I'd really think, wow, what a total jerk. And it would NOT have made me want to really take a step back and look at the situation through his eyes. It would not have made me understand how hurt he was.

So - I agree with you that yes, someone is going to be upset no matter what you do. And I agree with you that sure, it seems to make sense to ask if you can have a girlfriend in order to avoid divorce, because hey, what have you got to lose, right?

I am just saying that, for me, and your W may be totally different, I don't think that H asking to have a girlfriend would have helped anything, and in fact, it probably would have made it worse.

I know you kind of answered where your W is with all of this (she says she feels guilty, she'll think about it, but nothing ever comes of it) , but I don't think you ever said what her stance is on sex. Is she saying forget it, I'll never have sex with you again? I don't like sex at all? I like sex but I am not attracted to you? I want to have sex but I don't feel my needs are being met?

[ssmguy]

I see your reasoning. All good points. Boy, there are no easy answers. In my case, I don't want a divorce. In fact, if I wanted a divorce, my wife might think I'm so obsessed with sex that I don't care about anything else. Yes, it's hard to figure out beforehand how someone will interpret it. You took it one way, but my wife might take it the other way, just as you say.

My wife's stance on sex is "maybe, but not right now" and "I don't want to feel pressured". And "now" never comes. She apparently believes that herself too. Yes, she intends to, but there's always something else at the moment that's more important.

[melissag]

ssmguy, sorry if I missed this, but have you two gone to MC? I know there are Cs who specialize in this kind of stuff. I wish I could beat some sense into your W; I really do.

[Ambivalent]

SSMG,

If my H. had said he wanted a F-buddy or whatever, I too would have seen it as sex, and not intimacy.

With mine , it is about connecting, feeling desired/needed/wanted. When he opened up about needing to be touched and not wanting to beg, while crying at the C's, it broke my heart! I saw what it meant, and that I was clueless and had to take charge of my libido, my role.

It was about loving my husband. If I didn't love him, I would have not been so affected. If I didn't love him, I wouldn't have done the research and constant education about me, and men, and techniques and how to arouse myself!

Where you may be at present...she doesn't understand at all.

Now , your libido may be much higher even when she was interested. Back then you seemed to handle the difference, so if you got back to close to what it was, could you accept it?

Could you not talk about it? Also, have you initiated out of the bedroom? Like in the car, park, woods, in your office?
That is far more stimulating to me, than the OLD bedroom!

I don't like the girlfriend thing either, and I believe it would just hurt me and I would feel enormous pressure.

[ssmguy]

ssmguy, sorry if I missed this, but have you two gone to MC? I know there are Cs who specialize in this kind of stuff. I wish I could beat some sense into your W; I really do.

Yes, we've been to both MC and sex therapy. It helped us separate our sexual differences so they don't spill over into everything else that we value. So we both practice love and respect and care for each other's feelings. But it's like brother and sister.

My wife didn't want to continue with the therapy however, especially the sex therapy. I think she felt that it was zeroing in too much on her sexual issues, like never having had an orgasm and not ever even trying to have one, or letting me try to give her one. She never allowed any touching that could help her have one. I don't know what it is -- some kind of total blockage and uptightness around that whole topic for her, which I never understood. She wouldn't talk about it in therapy either.

[ssmguy]

If my H. had said he wanted a F-buddy or whatever, I too would have seen it as sex, and not intimacy.

This may be somewhat besides your point, but I'm prompted to say that depending on the people and their needs, an F-buddy can also be a very intimate experience. There's no rule written in stone that says that intimacy can only happen in a relationship that has developed over a long time, or can only happen in a marriage, or can only happen when all other aspects of your lives are intertwined.

With mine , it is about connecting, feeling desired/needed/wanted. When he opened up about needing to be touched and not wanting to beg, while crying at the C's, it broke my heart! I saw what it meant, and that I was clueless and had to take charge of my libido, my role.

Well, in that case, I suppose you could say I'm never going to solve the sexual issue in my marriage because I never cried in therapy about the situation. I'm too cheerful, hopeful and positive.

Where you may be at present...she doesn't understand at all.

Perhaps, but I get the feeling that there are issues she never overcame which were there even when we first met. Were there any hints at the beginning of your relationship of difficulties of any kind that could be problematic later?

Now , your libido may be much higher even when she was interested. Back then you seemed to handle the difference, so if you got back to close to what it was, could you accept it?

The answer is probably "no" at this point because I know more now. I would not want to go back to a sexual relationship which was more lopsided and incomplete than I understood at the time. I realize the genders are not completely symmetric in all sexual respects, but let me ask you, would you accept "going back" to a relationship with your husband where he never had an orgasm and never allowed you to touch any of his intimate areas, ever? Even if you had orgasms all the time and he assisted you in having them for yourself? Wouldn't you feel like he wasn't really participating sexually?

My wife wasn't comfortable enough to address any of this sexual lopsidedness in therapy. We only talked about respect, love, and things we do outside the bedroom. Which helped a lot in those respects. But the bedroom issues were never faced. I don't think she ever wants to explore them. Whatever is blocking her is apparently much greater than her love for me, even though she says she loves me and does MANY wonderful things for me aside from sex. In fact, she has sometimes thought that I was ungrateful when I wanted sex after she had done so many other things for me. Kind of like, "I've done all this for you and you're still not happy -- you still want sex after all I've done for you?" As if lots of other kindnesses could be a substitute for sex.

Could you not talk about it? Also, have you initiated out of the bedroom? Like in the car, park, woods, in your office?
That is far more stimulating to me, than the OLD bedroom!

Sure, I even suggested we meet for lunch and have trysts in places outside work. She just thought it was kind of weird and that I was oversexed.

I don't like the girlfriend thing either, and I believe it would just hurt me and I would feel enormous pressure.

Me wanting any kind of sex is seen as pressure. Doesn't matter how I dress it up or what context I put it in.